CANZUK International - "merger" of UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand

[kool maudit]

Canada's instinct has always been to be a component of a larger order.

[casper]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Canada has been seeking a better relationship with India for decades ...

If we talking decades.... Canada has been disappointed with India for decades due to its behaviour in using Canadian technology to advance its nuclear program.

The first nuclear reactors in both India and Pakistan were Canadian exports under the condition they be used for civilian purposes. Both countries went down a different path and Canada embargoed additional ongoing collaboration.

To both countries credit, after Canada ended collaboration, their own scientists and engineers were able to figure it out and advanced both those programs on their own.

The Canada - India relationship has been difficult for decades and for good reason. It has been more recent times that Canada has been willing to play nice again.

[casper]

Originally Posted by isaidso

We've spent decades, if not centuries, building a strong independent country with its own culture, traditions, and institutions. We're not fully there yet but why, on earth, would we undo all that hard time consuming work by re-surrecting the colonial ties we worked so hard to dismantle? Get rid of the monarchy, further Canadianize our symbols/places (the flag was a good start), and keep building the multi-cultural state that's been in the works for 40 years now.

If I wanted to be British, Australian, or a New Zealander I'd move to one of those countries. CANZUK? HELLO NO! It's no more appealing than a Canadian union with Brazil, Nigeria, or China.

They are not proposing a union in the traditional sense. This is a free trade deal that includes the ability of people from the four countries to move and work in each other country. It also includes provision for the military to collaborate.

[goodgrowth]

Just want free movement with Australia at the end of the day

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by casper

They are not proposing a union in the traditional sense. This is a free trade deal that includes the ability of people from the four countries to move and work in each other country. It also includes provision for the military to collaborate.

I don’t think there’s a common understanding of what the proposal would entail. Proponents would have just one of many possible interpretations.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by someone123

This seems potentially not great for Canada since we already get lots of immigrants from France and currently get to pick who comes here (give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses who have sufficient points to qualify for express entry.. ).

The main advantage to these deals to me seems to be the bigger common markets that are developed (which France is in with much of Europe). Companies can easily scale up to be larger, the cost of adapting to rules to sell to a given market is amortized over a bigger population, etc. I think the big market might be the main reason why the US generates so many big companies that do well in global winner-takes-all settings while Canada struggles. Canadian companies hit a wall where they need to start looking at multinational activity when American companies have barely scratched their home market. CANZUK, if it worked properly (I'm not so sure, and I don't think the UK is doing all that well right now), would be like a pseudo-country with over 100 million people in it for a bunch of market purposes.

I think the real issue here is that...

Canada would naturally want to set up its rules and what not to facilitate the greatest ease of doing business with the US given that the US is dominant on this side of the pond.

The UK would want to do the same with the EU (even after Brexit).

Australia is kind of on its own a bit; it does try to line up a bit with the Asia-Pacific region but that is a region with many different economic systems and development levels so it's not as easy as with UK-EU and Canada-US.

So I don't know.

I think freedom of movement would be awesome. And security cooperation.

But if it's FoM I wonder if any other candidates could enter the picture. The EU?

Cuz I feel like CANZUK will be demographically... a losing cause for Canada in some sense.

[casper]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I don’t think there’s a common understanding of what the proposal would entail. Proponents would have just one of many possible interpretations.

Here is the link to the organization proposing the arrangement.....

http://www.canzukinternational.com/

The FAQ and associated video compare and contrast this to other arrangements.

[saffronleaf]

Not everyone agrees with me (probably most do not) but like some others (a few politicians, some writers)... I think one of Canada's biggest problems is underpopulation.

I just don't see how we win out in a CANZUK setup. Granted the issue won't be that big but I think still kind of big.

Australia will generally be the big 'winner' (granted many Aussies won't see it that way lol) in terms of demographics. Brits have been fleeing there for a long time. Many Canadians, especially new Canadians from the tropics and Asia, will consider the same.

It will especially affect upper middle class professional managerial class workers. Because London pays more than Toronto in many fields like finance and corporate law, and for other services Australia pays considerably more. As well as in mining.

In some ways that's awesome but it will hurt Canada as a whole. Canada does have a decent manufacturing sector that could draw some people but I don't know.

FoM with EU as well would probably solve that issue, as many in the EU would be eager to come to Canada. Just like they were to the UK. 50% of them know English and a very substantial percentage know French. They are already kind of ingratiated in the Western milieu, so culturally probably not a big deal.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Not everyone agrees with me (probably most do not) but like some others (a few politicians, some writers)... I think one of Canada's biggest problems is underpopulation.

I just don't see how we win out in a CANZUK setup. Granted the issue won't be that big but I think still kind of big.

Australia will generally be the big 'winner' (granted many Aussies won't see it that way lol) in terms of demographics. Brits have been fleeing there for a long time. Many Canadians, especially new Canadians from the tropics and Asia, will consider the same.

It will especially affect upper middle class professional managerial class workers. Because London pays more than Toronto in many fields like finance and corporate law, and for other services Australia pays considerably more. As well as in mining.

In some ways that's awesome but it will hurt Canada as a whole. Canada does have a decent manufacturing sector that could draw some people but I don't know.

FoM with EU as well would probably solve that issue, as many in the EU would be eager to come to Canada. Just like they were to the UK. 50% of them know English and a very substantial percentage know French. They are already kind of ingratiated in the Western milieu, so culturally probably not a big deal.

Freedom of movement was the main cause of Brexit and has caused all sorts of problems for the EU. I am not sure how that is an effective solution to underpopulation. You would be better off making it easier for people on student and working holiday visas to stay.

[casper]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Not everyone agrees with me (probably most do not) but like some others (a few politicians, some writers)... I think one of Canada's biggest problems is underpopulation.

I just don't see how we win out in a CANZUK setup. Granted the issue won't be that big but I think still kind of big.

Australia will generally be the big 'winner' (granted many Aussies won't see it that way lol) in terms of demographics. Brits have been fleeing there for a long time. Many Canadians, especially new Canadians from the tropics and Asia, will consider the same.

It will especially affect upper middle class professional managerial class workers. Because London pays more than Toronto in many fields like finance and corporate law, and for other services Australia pays considerably more. As well as in mining.

In some ways that's awesome but it will hurt Canada as a whole. Canada does have a decent manufacturing sector that could draw some people but I don't know.

FoM with EU as well would probably solve that issue, as many in the EU would be eager to come to Canada. Just like they were to the UK. 50% of them know English and a very substantial percentage know French. They are already kind of ingratiated in the Western milieu, so culturally probably not a big deal.

Clearly you have not been to Whistler. Australians like coming to Canada and many want to stay.

The clear benefit to Canada is for Australian, New Zeeland and UK based companies that want to serve the North American market it would make more sense to setup in Canada and have flexibility.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Canada's instinct has always been to be a component of a larger order.

We succeed most often at the international level when "in good company".

[Luisito]

I hope CANZUK becomes a reality, from what I have read about it, it seems like a good Idea. I have a feeling though, at the end it will only be ANZUK. It seems like something that would be too innovative, risky or rebelious for Canada to try. It's better to be safe and not try anything new. We already have Canadian journalist writing against it.


Plus Uncle sam might have some objections to us joining.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Luisito

I hope CANZUK becomes a reality, from what I have read about it, it seems like a good Idea. I have a feeling though, at the end it will only be ANZUK. It seems like something that would be too innovative, risky or rebelious for Canada to try. It's better to be safe and not try anything new. We already have Canadian journalist writing against it.


Plus Uncle sam might have some objections to us joining.

Why would the UK join any meaningful economic pact with two much smaller economies on the other side of the globe, after they just exited a much more valuable economic agreement with a much larger and more important economy on their doorstep?

[casper]

Originally Posted by Luisito

I hope CANZUK becomes a reality, from what I have read about it, it seems like a good Idea. I have a feeling though, at the end it will only be ANZUK. It seems like something that would be too innovative, risky or rebelious for Canada to try. It's better to be safe and not try anything new. We already have Canadian journalist writing against it.


Plus Uncle sam might have some objections to us joining.

There is three factors that would would suggest this would work:
- Canadian, the UK, Australia and NZ (with the US) have a five eyes agreement and process in place for sharing intelligence. Behind the scenes there is already some co-ordination happening.
- Canada and Australia already have agreements in place for each others embassy and consular services to represent each other in countries where one has a presence and the other does not.
- Canada and Australia closely coordinate foreign aid activities.

Basically behind the scenes there is a of collaboration and information sharing already happening.

I think the US looks at the four countries as close friends that usually but not always are aligned with US objectives. It should be in the US interest to see a strong CANZUK group it can collaborate with. Historically the CANZUK countries have been friendlier to the US than the European Union. I don't think the US would stand in the way.

[MolsonExport]

CANZUK

China-Azerbaijan-Niger-Zambia-Ukraine-Kiribati

why not, eh?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by casper

There is three factors that would would suggest this would work:
- Canadian, the UK, Australia and NZ (with the US) have a five eyes agreement and process in place for sharing intelligence. Behind the scenes there is already some co-ordination happening.
- Canada and Australia already have agreements in place for each others embassy and consular services to represent each other in countries where one has a presence and the other does not.
- Canada and Australia closely coordinate foreign aid activities.

Basically behind the scenes there is a of collaboration and information sharing already happening.

I think the US looks at the four countries as close friends that usually but not always are aligned with US objectives. It should be in the US interest to see a strong CANZUK group it can collaborate with. Historically the CANZUK countries have been friendlier to the US than the European Union. I don't think the US would stand in the way.

To me those are indications the current system of likeminded independent countries is working well. None of them indicate some sort of political union. The EU has enough problems with adjacent countries that share borders, time zones, massive trade, etc. You literally couldn't organize a CANZUK zoom without people having to take the call in the middle of the night.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Why would the UK join any meaningful economic pact with two much smaller economies on the other side of the globe, after they just exited a much more valuable economic agreement with a much larger and more important economy on their doorstep?

They'd be the big fish in the pond with this new agreement.

If you think about it, that's basically the reason Brexit happened, even if it's not logical.

Brexit voters didn't like being beholden to Brussels and wanted to Make Britain Great Again. Entering some pact with "the colonies" in which you're the Big Guy again seems to fit perfectly with their mindset.

[kool maudit]

CANZUK is already real on certain levels, given Five Eyes and a few other things. Our history shows a lot of involvement on the part of the Rhodes Trust through names like Escott Reid, Vincent Massey, Lester Pearson, John Turner, and now Chrystia Freeland. Malcolm Turnbull and Tony Abbott in Australia have similar backgrounds, while in New Zealand, Jacinda Ardern was a senior Blair policy advisor; John Key also has an interesting pan-Anglo financial background.

Canada really is what it says on the tin, if no longer on the flag. It is a bit like Philip K. 🞵🞵🞵🞵 said in another context: the Empire never ended. Or at least it didn't return to its farm like Cincinnatus after Suez.

Mark Carney wasn't going to go head up the Bank of Spain in Madrid. There are pathways in place at Canada's highest levels that are old and lead to London.

Permitting you or I to take a fun job in Brisbane and go surfing is entirely unnecessary.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

CANZUK is already real on certain levels, given Five Eyes and a few other things. Our history shows a lot of involvement on the part of the Rhodes Trust through names like Escott Reid, Vincent Massey, Lester Pearson, John Turner, and now Chrystia Freeland. Malcolm Turnbull and Tony Abbott in Australia have similar backgrounds, while in New Zealand, Jacinda Ardern was a senior Blair policy advisor; John Key also has an interesting pan-Anglo financial background.

Canada really is what it says on the tin, if no longer on the flag. It is a bit like Philip K. 🞵🞵🞵🞵 said in another context: the Empire never ended. Or at least it didn't return to its farm like Cincinnatus after Suez.

Mark Carney wasn't going to go head up the Bank of Spain in Madrid. There are pathways in place at Canada's highest levels that are old and lead to London.

Permitting you or I to take a fun job in Brisbane and go surfing is entirely unnecessary.

All of which runs against the popular notion that Canada isn't any more British than it is (insert demonym for any country from which we have a decent number of immigrants).

Of course and I assume many of us have never really taken that seriously.

Even David Suzuki fits in more in London or Sydney (or even San Francisco) than he does in Yokohama.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

Brexit voters didn't like being beholden to Brussels and wanted to Make Britain Great Again. Entering some pact with "the colonies" in which you're the Big Guy again seems to fit perfectly with their mindset.

Sadly, I think there is truth in this statement, but in addition to becoming the big boy on the block again, I think the UK genuinely wants a new trading association to partially make up for what was lost because of Brexit.

I still think there is value in CANZUK, and it is not just because of a false romantic notion of lost empire. These four countries have the same monarch, the same parliamentary system, same legal systems, same language, similar economies and a common adherence to the modern welfare state.

If any four countries in the world could come together to create an equitable free trade and free movement area, these would be them. I think we would all benefit, and since size matters in this world, a common trading block of 140 million people would make countries like China take notice.

And, I wouldn't mind being able to throw a few shrimps on the barbie with my Aussie mates from time to time too.