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  #9541  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2021, 3:59 PM
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wong21fr wong21fr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
AFAIK, the four-tenths percent dedicated FasTracks tax is enough to pay for the capital and maintenance costs of light/commuter rail. I do believe/guessing that the operational costs for rail service comes out of the other six-tenths percent RTD tax. But that's hardly unreasonable given that 7 rail corridors provide half the ridership of 142 bus routes (in 2019).

The 7/8-county RTD district voters wanted and agreed to pay for the four-tenths percent tax for a light and commuter rail system. wong isn't wrong that anticipating leftover money they then intended to use any extra money to enhance bus service. Oh well.
https://www3.drcog.org/documents/archive/2004_FasTracks_Plan.pdf

Go back and read the original 2004 proposal that underpinned the ballot (start of page 1-22). FasTracks was supposed to provide local bus service with an additional 300,000 hours over 2003 levels of service. Something that never materialized. It wasn't leftover money, it was a core part of the plan that, combined with a reconfigured local network, was supposed to provide frequent local service that would compliment and enhance the rail network.
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Last edited by wong21fr; Jan 22, 2021 at 6:00 PM.
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  #9542  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2021, 4:35 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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Originally Posted by gopokes21 View Post
You're trying to say that we can't serve areas of the city where density does exist because it didn't go so well when we spent $6-7 billion on LRT serving almost entirely industrial warehouse sections of Denver.

I'm not sure I follow that logic. Why don't we actually follow rooftops then?

So what do you want, more density, and more rooftops? Because it's on the way (and given how much more supply we need, we know that will be the case for a long time). Now we need to mitigate this cycle of increasing car-dependency along with density as a result of higher-income new residents - that 🞵🞵🞵🞵 aint sustainable. Overbuilding parking is also a HUGE part of our (un)affordability situation, and I think most of us also share the concerns about local cost escalations.
What I'm saying is Denver isn't dense, really anywhere. Cap Hill is dense for Denver, but not really that dense and certainly not dense or large enough to support a subway. Cap Hill, by the most generous measure, is about 18k/sq mile and it's maybe one square mile. NYC on average is 27k people/sq mile. We don't have anywhere close to enough people living in Denver to support a subway. Could we support little stretches that serve the convention center and cherry creek? Maybe, if tourism dollars went to pay for it but ridership won't carry the cost. We need vast amounts of additional density before things like subways start to make sense from a ridership perspective, we are nowhere close to being able to support those kinds of investments through ridership which is why I say we can vote to tax ourselves to build them, but it will ultimately cripple our ability to operate them over the long term.
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  #9543  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2021, 4:41 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
The obvious "elephant in the room" is why should the voter/taxpayers of 7/8 counties pay six-tenths percent tax for bus service within the above defined boundaries?
Your point in and of itself is an elephant in the room, voters! LOL. Because voters are voters and all the city folk wanted wolves re-introduced to mountain communities?!
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  #9544  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2021, 8:37 PM
rds70 rds70 is offline
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El Jebel Tower is back (although shorter).

Concept review submitted to City:

Quote:
30 Story residential tower (340 feet) with some retail at the ground level. 120 residential units totaling more than 250,000 SQ FT. 5,000 SQ FT of retail space at Sherman Street level, and 175 space parking garage.
Architect is listed as DLW Architects, Dunedin, FL
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  #9545  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2021, 8:52 PM
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In 2003/2004 I was lucky if I could distinguish the back end of a bus from the front end
Quote:
Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
https://www3.drcog.org/documents/archive/2004_FasTracks_Plan.pdf

Go back and read the original 2004 proposal that underpinned the ballot (start of page 1-22). FasTracks was supposed to provide local bus service with an additional 300,000 hours over 2003 levels of service. Something that never materialized. It wasn't leftover money, it was a core part of the plan that, combined with a reconfigured local network, was supposed to provide frequent local service that would compliment and enhance the rail network.
Thanks for the link; this is a fun read. Fun thinking back.
Quote:
These achievements, as well as many others, led to RTD being named this year as the best transit agency in North America by the American Public Transportation Association (APTA).
It's very clear early that FasTracks was a "metropolitan" vision with Denver at its core.
Quote:
FasTracks responds to current sentiment on transportation needs within the metropolitan area. In a recent survey ... the lack of public/mass transportation was identified as one of the top transportation issues. The CDOT survey also states that if transportation funds became available, in the metro area, the highest priority for spending that money should be on light rail.
Yes, they do specifically mention Bus Rapid Transit... and they did that and it's hugely successful. They also mention enhancing - re-organizing bus service around light rail hubs etc.... and they've done that also. Whenever a new line was opened they redid the bus routes to feed into light rail. Ofc I'm most familiar with Nine Mile Station as a hub which has 9 bus routes that feed into that station.

Seriously, that's a helluva good planning effort. I'll finish reading but won't drone on...

In summary, the optics presented to voters were primarily about TRAINS; that's what I voted for...

You 🞵🞵🞵🞵 Thing
I believe in miracles
Where're you from, you 🞵🞵🞵🞵 thing


We came close enough.
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  #9546  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2021, 9:07 PM
SirLucasTheGreat SirLucasTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by rds70 View Post
El Jebel Tower is back (although shorter).

Concept review submitted to City:



Architect is listed as DLW Architects, Dunedin, FL
That's cool! I was definitely skeptical of the +50 story original but this seems more realistic in this market
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  #9547  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2021, 9:53 PM
The Dirt The Dirt is offline
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I thought they wanted to stick with the original tower because it was fully entitled and they wouldn't have to hire a new architect. Of course, building a 650 ft. hotel tower with 8 stories of parking wouldn't be the most profitable use of the site nowadays. Residential makes sense, but I wonder what they plan to do with the historical building? They've been working on the exterior for 3 years now.

Last edited by The Dirt; Jan 22, 2021 at 10:13 PM.
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  #9548  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2021, 10:36 PM
rds70 rds70 is offline
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A final rendering of the apartment project that will replace the Ramada Inn at Colfax and Downing (333 apartments, 6,200 square feet of retail, 7 stories):



The developer is Kairoi Residential.
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  #9549  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2021, 11:28 PM
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Development; sweet sweet development
Quote:
Originally Posted by gopokes21 View Post
Aside from Denver Union Station and 38th and Blake a half-dozen smaller stations, Denver isn't really a feature of FasTracks and shouldn't maintain it if we are totally on our own for local transit.
Not only for your benefit but for all of us, let's review the existing and potential TOD in and around or 'not too far' by train from central Denver. Since I've referenced corridors, let's paint a picture of potential buildout value for each corridor starting with the East Corridor and moving counter-clockwise. I'll guestimate values which I'll pull out of my 🞵🞵🞵🞵 so other's feedback is welcome.

QUESTION: Does anybody know the approximate value of the built-out Denver Union Station neighborhood, both public and private? Since this is virtually finished I assumed the value was readily searchable. I was wrong.

The hub of the wheel - Denver Union Station
neighborhood or "district" (which Ken uses) I'll guestimate at $1.5 billion to $2 billion.

East Corridor - along the A Line
  • 38th & Blake Station - Value of TOD at buildout: Three quarters of a billion $'s and up
  • Central Park Station - Value of TOD buildout: Pending urban/suburban density decisions I'd guess one-third to one-half of a billion $'s
North Corridor - The N Line
  • 48th & Brighton / National Western Center Station - This is already a designated billion $ project. The potential for additional mixed-use development should be in the neighborhood of one-third of a billion $'s and up
Northwest Corridor The B and G Lines
  • 41st and Fox Station - interesting conceptual plans out there, this TOD could easily be a half billion $'s or more.
  • Pecos Junction Station - there's been some land assemblage but plans remain early stage - let's guess quarter billion $'s.
West Corridor - along the W Line
  • Decatur - Federal Station - if you combine the master plans of Sun Valley and the Stadium District this one could pop nicely but assuming mid-level density we'll go with half a billion $'s but more likely 3/4 of a billion $'s.
South and Southwest Corridors

bunt likes this one and so do I; but we'll combine two station as one extended area of TOD. This has been traditionally a favored direction or part of town.
  • I-25 & Broadway and Alameda Stations - one billion $'s and up.

Noteworthy:
I didn't include River Mile projections which will take advantage of and benefit from the transit station. Much the same could be noted about the Auraria campus. Rail transit is important for both of these.

In Total
Not counting DUS which is done there's an addition over $4 billion and likely closer to $5 billion in potential TOD before it's all done.

Aerotropolis Denver
  • Couple of billion $'s of TOD?
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  #9550  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2021, 12:07 AM
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I like this
Quote:
Originally Posted by rds70 View Post
A final rendering of the apartment project that will replace the Ramada Inn at Colfax and Downing (333 apartments, 6,200 square feet of retail, 7 stories):



The developer is Kairoi Residential.
It's good that Kairoi has had the 'extra' time to focus on this after walking away from their pointless Bell Tower efforts.

While they were playing games with the LoDo Design Review crew, they came across a unique opportunity and moved quickly to acquire a site in Austin that they now will co-develop with Lincoln Property Co to build Austin's first 'super-tall' (at least 984 feet) office and residential tower. Who knows though the Pandemic problems with going forward on this one?
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  #9551  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2021, 8:02 PM
gopokes21 gopokes21 is offline
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That Kairoi project is perfect. That stretch around Downing has gone really downhill during the pandemic - all of these delayed/stalled projects are becoming blight. Can't wait to see the Franklin/Colfax Burger King development move forward. Pretty much everything that's vacant/abandoned on that stretch of Colfax is so because of slowly-moving projects. Blight by pre-development, if you will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Development; sweet sweet development


Not only for your benefit but for all of us, let's review the existing and potential TOD in and around or 'not too far' by train from central Denver. Since I've referenced corridors, let's paint a picture of potential buildout value for each corridor starting with the East Corridor and moving counter-clockwise. I'll guestimate values which I'll pull out of my 🞵🞵🞵🞵 so other's feedback is welcome.

QUESTION: Does anybody know the approximate value of the built-out Denver Union Station neighborhood, both public and private? Since this is virtually finished I assumed the value was readily searchable. I was wrong.

The hub of the wheel - Denver Union Station
neighborhood or "district" (which Ken uses) I'll guestimate at $1.5 billion to $2 billion.

East Corridor - along the A Line
  • 38th & Blake Station - Value of TOD at buildout: Three quarters of a billion $'s and up
  • Central Park Station - Value of TOD buildout: Pending urban/suburban density decisions I'd guess one-third to one-half of a billion $'s
North Corridor - The N Line
  • 48th & Brighton / National Western Center Station - This is already a designated billion $ project. The potential for additional mixed-use development should be in the neighborhood of one-third of a billion $'s and up
Northwest Corridor The B and G Lines
  • 41st and Fox Station - interesting conceptual plans out there, this TOD could easily be a half billion $'s or more.
  • Pecos Junction Station - there's been some land assemblage but plans remain early stage - let's guess quarter billion $'s.
West Corridor - along the W Line
  • Decatur - Federal Station - if you combine the master plans of Sun Valley and the Stadium District this one could pop nicely but assuming mid-level density we'll go with half a billion $'s but more likely 3/4 of a billion $'s.
South and Southwest Corridors

bunt likes this one and so do I; but we'll combine two station as one extended area of TOD. This has been traditionally a favored direction or part of town.
  • I-25 & Broadway and Alameda Stations - one billion $'s and up.

Noteworthy:
I didn't include River Mile projections which will take advantage of and benefit from the transit station. Much the same could be noted about the Auraria campus. Rail transit is important for both of these.

In Total
Not counting DUS which is done there's an addition over $4 billion and likely closer to $5 billion in potential TOD before it's all done.

Aerotropolis Denver
  • Couple of billion $'s of TOD?
Almost entirely along the fringes of the City and County of Denver. Still, I appreciate your summary - you're not wrong, but a number of things can be true at once. All of the development is great but there's a lot of existing neighborhoods in Denver (in fact most of the City) and they're starting to get anxious about whether they will ever see mass transit.

What's REALLY concerning - you named a bunch of development hotspots, there is actually more development occurring in neighborhoods NOT served by mass transit. 9th + CO is a great example. Many of us in Congress Park are very concerned about adding 1,000 to 2,000 more units, and a ton of retail, in an auto-dependent area where traffic is already bad. We've already seen this happen around Lowry, Cherry Creek, and Glendale where major infill has exacerbated problems in an area that was already gridlocked. Cars aside, it's also really unpleasant and unsafe to be a bicyclist or pedestrian around bad traffic (Quebec, Monaco, Colfax, Colorado, Speer, York/Josephine/Univ, Park are all overwhelmed rn).

I do not want to oppose more major infill initiatives that truly improve our built environment, but we need to reconsider how auto-dependent these areas of the city are. I'm not sure how I feel right now about major infill at the Park Hill Golf Course, Monaco/Evans, Krisana, Colfax/Colorado, Johnson & Wales campus, Krameria area (super under the radar, but everything around there is being rezoned). Each of those areas will see at least 1,000 new units and we don't have any mass transit in east Denver. That's cumulatively at least 10,000 new units across rail-free east Denver over the next decade. Nobody else is concerned by this, and some people still say subway is "impractical"?

I'm trying really hard not to beat a dead horse (for instance I'll let the anti-core and anti-subway comments go) but there's just a few points that bear repeating, including the fact that FasTracks is a regional system not a Denver system. Sure it's better than nothing for Denver, but Denver aint its focus, and we don't really serve east Denver nor any natural urban corridors unless you count the 15 Bus and 0 Bus.

Many of RTD's rail lines, the south corridor cutting through Baker being a prime example, zip past actual Denver neighborhoods without stopping. Can't slow down the suburban commuters apparently.

edit: Forgot about Johnson & Wales, which is another huge redevelopment not served by any transit

Last edited by gopokes21; Jan 24, 2021 at 8:17 PM.
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  #9552  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2021, 9:16 PM
gopokes21 gopokes21 is offline
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Does anyone know what just broke ground on Park between California and Welton?

I know there was an approved SDP for another ugly REIT multifamily groundscraper (or landship if you will) but then that site got sold to a different developer...
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  #9553  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2021, 9:31 PM
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wong21fr wong21fr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gopokes21 View Post
Does anyone know what just broke ground on Park between California and Welton?

I know there was an approved SDP for another ugly REIT multifamily groundscraper (or landship if you will) but then that site got sold to a different developer...
600 Park Avenue? Did that finally break ground? Still the same 13 story, quarter
block development as a few years back. I believe that Greystar is the developer.

Interestingly, that was the first project to go through the AS (now Downtown) design review.
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  #9554  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2021, 1:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rds70 View Post
El Jebel Tower is back (although shorter).

Concept review submitted to City:



Architect is listed as DLW Architects, Dunedin, FL
And to think, once upon a time we were excited about a potential Trump Tower in Denver. My, how times have changed.
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  #9555  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2021, 6:20 PM
Robert.hampton Robert.hampton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rds70 View Post
El Jebel Tower is back (although shorter).

Concept review submitted to City:



Architect is listed as DLW Architects, Dunedin, FL
Hmmm so 4 residential units per floor averaging 2000sf per unit? Certainly would be something totally new and a huge departure from prevailing trends. The architect also has a real doozy of a portfolio of pretty horrid Hampton inns in the suburbs so count me as skeptical (not to mention the sketchy developers)

Last edited by Robert.hampton; Jan 24, 2021 at 7:05 PM.
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  #9556  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2021, 6:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
600 Park Avenue? Did that finally break ground? Still the same 13 story, quarter
block development as a few years back. I believe that Greystar is the developer.

Interestingly, that was the first project to go through the AS (now Downtown) design review.
600 Park Ave is under construction, another Greystar project. Their recent Denver portfolio includes Parq on Speer (Speer & Bannock), The Pullman (19th & Wewatta) and The Fitzgerald (18th & Market) along with the proposed Parq II at 10th & Bannock.

This area also has the 9 story CCH Renaissance Lofts now under construction on California between 21st and 22nd. Rendering:


I noticed Capitol Square Apartments at 13th & Sherman has a tower crane base, we should be seeing a new crane go up there by the end of the month.
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  #9557  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2021, 6:42 PM
Robert.hampton Robert.hampton is offline
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Originally Posted by gopokes21 View Post
That Kairoi project is perfect. That stretch around Downing has gone really downhill during the pandemic - all of these delayed/stalled projects are becoming blight. Can't wait to see the Franklin/Colfax Burger King development move forward. Pretty much everything that's vacant/abandoned on that stretch of Colfax is so because of slowly-moving projects. Blight by pre-development, if you will.
I’d call it RNO inflicted blight more so than pre-development blight. Both the Franklin/colfax and smileys laundromat developments were put on hold by objections to demolition from CHUN. Now those building have sat vacant and dilapidated for years and the stretch of colfax has really deteriorated. And both projects had really high quality replacement proposals and were replacing buildings with very questionable historic integrity. Meanwhile CHUN sits on its hand as Victorians are raised at 16th and pearl which are going to be replaced with....a self storage building. Denver’s RNOs probably rival the RTD bord in level of incompetence.

In any case of all three of those developments do go forward - kairoi, smileys, and Franklin/colfax - that will be a generational change for colfax.
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  #9558  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2021, 7:53 PM
gopokes21 gopokes21 is offline
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Originally Posted by Robert.hampton View Post
I’d call it RNO inflicted blight more so than pre-development blight. Both the Franklin/colfax and smileys laundromat developments were put on hold by objections to demolition from CHUN. Now those building have sat vacant and dilapidated for years and the stretch of colfax has really deteriorated. And both projects had really high quality replacement proposals and were replacing buildings with very questionable historic integrity. Meanwhile CHUN sits on its hand as Victorians are raised at 16th and pearl which are going to be replaced with....a self storage building. Denver’s RNOs probably rival the RTD bord in level of incompetence.

In any case of all three of those developments do go forward - kairoi, smileys, and Franklin/colfax - that will be a generational change for colfax.
Are you serious? I haven't seen anything about this anywhere, and I'll admit I haven't gone through there since it got cold, but is that a done deal already?

I agree with you that there are good demolitions and bad demolitions. All three of the projects on Colfax aren't just appropriate, but sorely needed in order to improve Colfax - just as in-tact Victorians north or south of Colfax are also good for Colfax.

Last edited by gopokes21; Jan 24, 2021 at 8:03 PM.
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  #9559  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2021, 12:00 AM
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Two tower crane bases are now in place at AMLI Broadway Park at Alameda & Bannock. There is a big excavation there so we should start to see that one go vertical soon. 375 apartment units
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  #9560  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2021, 12:36 AM
The Dirt The Dirt is offline
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Originally Posted by Robert.hampton View Post
I’d call it RNO inflicted blight more so than pre-development blight. Both the Franklin/colfax and smileys laundromat developments were put on hold by objections to demolition from CHUN. Now those building have sat vacant and dilapidated for years and the stretch of colfax has really deteriorated. And both projects had really high quality replacement proposals and were replacing buildings with very questionable historic integrity. Meanwhile CHUN sits on its hand as Victorians are raised at 16th and pearl which are going to be replaced with....a self storage building. Denver’s RNOs probably rival the RTD bord in level of incompetence.

In any case of all three of those developments do go forward - kairoi, smileys, and Franklin/colfax - that will be a generational change for colfax.
As a CHUN delegate, I agree with your general sentiment about RNOs, but you miss the mark on the specifics and overstate our power to protect historic structures or stop new development. Additionally, substantial changes have happened both in CHUN (and other overlapping RNO leaderships) as well as D10 council representation since Smiley's. I'm not aware of the Pearl & 16th Victorians being demolished and I can say that there was considerable concern from historic preservation folks on and off the board when it was first proposed years ago. There are also those that both love and hate the Kairoi project, so it's not fair to paint with such a broad brush. Overall, CHUN is probably the in the top 5 least NIMBY RNOs in the city.
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