The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[dleung]

Annnd, we've come full circle to "I don't see colour!"

But honestly, do you guys feel oppressed by heterophobia if a gay mechanic says he feels alienated by being the only gay guy in an all-straight men trade? lol

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

If it's such a crime to feel alienated as the only asian woman in a setting that's basically all white men,

So it's OK to feel "alienated" (think of the true meaning of the word) if one is the only francophone on a national board of directors for a Canadian organization? I've been there. More than once. I did not feel particularly "alienated". Though I might have if my English wasn't as good as it is.

Sure, at one point you think "hey man, I am actually the only Frenchie in the room", but then you move on. It's no big deal.

I certainly never felt this was a story for the Globe and Mail or Le Devoir, or that strangers would be discussing it on an online forum like we are discussing this chess player's story.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

Annnd, we've come full circle to "I don't see colour!"

But honestly, do you guys feel oppressed by heterophobia if a gay mechanic says he feels alienated by being the only gay guy in an all-straight men trade? lol

I don't actually think heterophobia is much of a thing in Canadian society.

But what I mostly feel regarding this example is: sad for this guy if he feels alienated working amongst straight dudes, because the reality is that around 90-95% of people in society are straight and as a result society for better or for worse will always be heteronormative to some degree.

So if you're feeling alienated in that garage simply due to the mere presence of these straight dudes (assuming they're not acting homophobic), then you're probably going to be feeling alienated, and unhappy, for a significant portion of your everyday life in society as well.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So it's OK to feel "alienated" (think of the true meaning of the word) if one is the only francophone on a national board of directors for a Canadian organization? I've been there. More than once. I did not feel particularly "alienated". Though I might have if my English wasn't as good as it is.

Sure, at one point you think "hey man, I am actually the only Frenchie in the room", but then you move on. It's no big deal.

Speaking French isn't a race. It's not equivalent to skin colour. People speaking a language around you that isn't yours is not racism.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Speaking French isn't a race. It's not equivalent to skin colour. People speaking a language around you that isn't yours is not racism.

I never said either of those things.

But language is grounds for discrimination. In Canada it's one of the most common ones historically, and arguably more significant than religion is.

[someone123]

It used to be very common for religious conservatives to argue that gay people shouldn't be in a protected class because their distinction is behavioural rather than based on immutable physical characteristics.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I never said either of those things.

Your constant equating of linguistic discrimination to racial discrimination is effectively doing that for you.

Originally Posted by Acajack

But language is grounds for discrimination. In Canada it's one of the most common ones historically, and arguably more significant than religion is.

Yes. You keep turning the conversation away from race and towards language, though, when they're separate things for the sake of this thread.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Your constant equating of linguistic discrimination to racial discrimination is effectively doing that for you.


Yes. You keep turning the conversation away from race and towards language, though, when they're separate things for the sake of this thread.

Technically, you're right.

Though in modern society the common definition of "racism" has evolved to include hate or prejudice against any number of identifiable groups, including those who may be of the same "race" as you. Race is a fairly bizarre concept to begin with anyway.

And so WASPs can be racist against the Irish, or Poles, or Italians. At least that's the way most people see things. And a person who begs to differ by arguing they're all the same race, pretty much sounds like THAT annoying guy who insists that we shouldn't refer to people from the US as "Americans" because Canadians and Bolivians are Americans too.

Consider that in the context of Canada stuff like Quebec Bill 101 or Quebec Bill 21 is decried as racist millions of times a year even though there is nothing racial about either law.

In my younger days I once moderated a debate between Franco-Ontariens with names like Lalonde and Séguin, and Québécois, with the former arguing that the latter were "racist" against them.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Technically, you're right.

Great, thanks.

--------

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/rcmp-lobster-pound-break-and-enter-23-charged-1.5870360

RCMP charge 23 after lobster pound ransacked last fall in southwest N.S.

The incident happened during weeks of unrest over the moderate livelihood fishery

Charges have been laid against 23 people in connection with an incident last year at a lobster pound in Middle West Pubnico, N.S.

On Oct. 13, 2020, a mob descended on the Yarmouth County lobster pound, forcing Mi'kmaw fisherman Jason Marr to barricade himself inside.

His vehicle was vandalized and hundreds of lobsters from the pound were scattered on the pavement outside.

Four days later, on Oct. 17, the pound was destroyed in a fire the RCMP described as suspicious. The blaze remains under investigation.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't actually think heterophobia is much of a thing in Canadian society.

But what I mostly feel regarding this example is: sad for this guy if he feels alienated working amongst straight dudes, because the reality is that around 90-95% of people in society are straight and as a result society for better or for worse will always be heteronormative to some degree.

So if you're feeling alienated in that garage simply due to the mere presence of these straight dudes (assuming they're not acting homophobic), then you're probably going to be feeling alienated, and unhappy, for a significant portion of your everyday life in society as well.

For what it's worth, I'm gay and I love cycling. I'm by no means the only gay cyclist, but sometimes it does feel isolating being the only gay guy amongst my cycling friends who are overwhelmingly white, male and middle-aged. I would personally say alienation is a strong word for what I experience, but I don't think it's an unreasonable word. It does not mean that they're homophobic or actively isolating me. On the contrary, it's the exact opposite.

In the context of the article, Truong's comment certainly didn't come across to me as an indictment of white male chess players, just a description of her experience being the lone Asian woman in a very homogenous community. The context of the article made it clear that that was a motivation for her being involved in teaching chess to others.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jamincan

For what it's worth, I'm gay and I love cycling. I'm by no means the only gay cyclist, but sometimes it does feel isolating being the only gay guy amongst my cycling friends who are overwhelmingly white, male and middle-aged. I would personally say alienation is a strong word for what I experience, but I don't think it's an unreasonable word. It does not mean that they're homophobic or actively isolating me. On the contrary, it's the exact opposite.
.

I can definitely understand that. But isn't that, for better or for worse, kinda just part of being gay (or part of any other group than isn't the ''normative" one)? I think societal progress can only go so far in alleviating the situations that cause those feelings.

I am reminded of the video with teenaged girls having a pyjama party. One of the girls is lesbian, and after a while her friends are looking for something to do, and they say: "let's talk about boys!" And all the girls except her say "YESSS!" And then finally she semi-enthusiastically says "YES! Let's... talk... about... .... boys".

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I can definitely understand that. But isn't that, for better or for worse, kinda just part of being gay (or part of any other group than isn't the ''normative" one)? I think societal progress can only go so far in alleviating the situations that cause those feelings.

I am reminded of the video with teenaged girls having a pyjama party. One of the girls is lesbian, and after a while her friends are looking for something to do, and they say: "let's talk about boys!" And all the girls except her say "YESSS!" And then finally she semi-enthusiastically says "YES! Let's... talk... about... .... boys".

Yeah, it often is. If I were more involved and active, I might start a LGBTQ+ cycling club to try to get more people like me involved in the sport. I never said it was society's job to address my experience of isolation in cycling.

Perhaps you could explain to me what was so objectionable about what Truong was doing in the article. She likes chess, she feels isolated in the chess world, and so she's involved in teaching chess to kids in order to make it more diverse. That sounds good and wholesome and admirable. Far from what you and rousseau and lio45 seem to suggest - that Truong somehow feels that the chess world owes it to her to change - her isolation has led her to try to make the change she would like to see. That's hardly entitlement.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jamincan

Yeah, it often is. If I were more involved and active, I might start a LGBTQ+ cycling club to try to get more people like me involved in the sport. I never said it was society's job to address my experience of isolation in cycling.

Perhaps you could explain to me what was so objectionable about what Truong was doing in the article. She likes chess, she feels isolated in the chess world, and so she's involved in teaching chess to kids in order to make it more diverse. That sounds good and wholesome and admirable. Far from what you and rousseau and lio45 seem to suggest - that Truong somehow feels that the chess world owes it to her to change - her isolation has led her to try to make the change she would like to see. That's hardly entitlement.

The only issue I have is perhaps her choice of word(s) to describe her situation. I don't have any issue at all with people wanting Group X to partake in Activity A more.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

It used to be very common for religious conservatives to argue that gay people shouldn't be in a protected class because their distinction is behavioural rather than based on immutable physical characteristics.

It's actually much easier for a gay person to court/screw girls to fit it than for an unilingual francophone to achieve fluency in "white speak"...

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Consider that in the context of Canada stuff like Quebec Bill 101 or Quebec Bill 21 is decried as racist millions of times a year even though there is nothing racial about either law.

Exactly. That ship has sailed already in modern Canada. If it's okay to call my dislike of religious extremists "racist", then I'm certainly going to cry racism when I encounter francophobia.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by jamincan

Perhaps you could explain to me what was so objectionable about what Truong was doing in the article.

It's racist. (And I find racism objectionable.)

The nerdiest kids when I was growing up were Vietnamese. (Truong was a very common name.) I wouldn't be surprised if the local chess club was almost only East Asian kids. You'd be fine with me if I... didn't like East Asians for some reason so I worked towards my personal goal of "lesser proportion of East Asians in the chess club" by offering to teach chess to Non-East-Asians? You wouldn't find that... race-obsessed, racist, distasteful?

She likes chess, she feels isolated in the chess world, and so she's involved in teaching chess to kids in order to make it more diverse. That sounds good and wholesome and admirable.

I like skyscrapers. I feel isolated on SSP, because like two thirds of users here are gay. So I'm involved in a movement that tries to recruit heterosexuals and convince them to join this forum, because I don't like seeing such a high proportion of gays on this forum that I like very much. I am actively working to make SSP less gay (i.e. "more diverse"). jamincan finds my hetero recruiting efforts to be good, wholesome and admirable.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The only issue I have is perhaps her choice of word(s) to describe her situation. I don't have any issue at all with people wanting Group X to partake in Activity A more.

That's all I took her comments to mean.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's actually much easier for a gay person to court/screw girls to fit it than for an unilingual francophone to achieve fluency in "white speak"...

You really have no — clue.

[Acajack]

The city of Montreal named its first anti-racism commissioner yesterday.

They considered 120 people for the job, but the choice has been slammed by both sides (how very 2021!).

The appointee is a community activist of North African (Tunisian I think) origin who was involved as the spokesperson for one of Canada's more conservative Muslim organizations. For example they have advocated for separating boys and girls in school, and exempting Muslim children from music classes because it's allegedly offensive. She is or was an outspoken critic of Bill 21, and was involved in one of the initial (failed) court challenges against it.

The mayor is also getting slammed from the "other" side because her appointee is not... black.

https://cultmtl.com/2021/01/montreal-appoints-anti-racism-commissioner-amid-criticism-bochra-manai/

One of the more vocal critics has been a former CFLer who won the Grey Cup with the Alouettes a few years ago. He is now a lawyer and activist for the black community, and has been trying to get into politics.

A quick search of online photos shows that there isn't much difference in the tone of the facial complexion between this guy and the appointee. Plus, technically, people from North Africa are still "African" anyway. Though yes, she is not sub-Saharan nor a descendant of the transatlantic slave trade that victimized sub-Saharans.

(I honestly can't believe that such things like being sufficiently black or African for a job, actually matter to intelligent people having serious discussions in 2021, but here we are. Il faut être de son temps je suppose.)

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The city of Montreal named its first anti-racism commissioner yesterday.

They considered 120 people for the job, but the choice has been slammed by both sides (how very 2021!).

The appointee is a community activist of North African (Tunisian I think) origin who was involved as the spokesperson for one of Canada's more conservative Muslim organizations. For example they have advocated for separating boys and girls in school, and exempting Muslim children from music classes because it's allegedly offensive. She is or was an outspoken critic of Bill 21, and was involved in one of the initial (failed) court challenges against it.

The mayor is also getting slammed from the "other" side because her appointee is not... black.

https://cultmtl.com/2021/01/montreal-appoints-anti-racism-commissioner-amid-criticism-bochra-manai/

One of the more vocal critics has been a former CFLer who won the Grey Cup with the Alouettes a few years ago. He is now a lawyer and activist for the black community, and has been trying to get into politics.

A quick search of online photos shows that there isn't much difference in the tone of the facial complexion between this guy and the appointee. Plus, technically, people from North Africa are still "African" anyway. Though yes, she is not sub-Saharan nor a descendant of the transatlantic slave trade that victimized sub-Saharans.

(I honestly can't believe that such things like being sufficiently black or African for a job, actually matter to intelligent people having serious discussions in 2021, but here we are. Il faut être de son temps je suppose.)

The two of them look like they could be siblings if you're going by skin tone!

I can understand allegations of being tone-deaf if they had appointed some middle aged white guy to the job, but the idea a qualified POC doesn't have enough "C" is a questionable line of reasoning...