Winnipeg Construction X

[esquire]

^ I suppose one could also say the same thing about the Perimeter Highway... it's now over 60 years old and only a few short segments have urban development butting up against it.

[Wigglez]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I suppose one could also say the same thing about the Perimeter Highway... it's now over 60 years old and only a few short segments have urban development butting up against it.

Would you consider the Perimeter Highway a good idea as is? Build something far away from the city, for the city, that takes 60~ years for the city to catch up to?

Or, with the power of hindsight, would you have built it closer to the city 60 years ago? Say where our half-realized "inner ring road" currently exists (Bishop, Lagimodiere, Chief Peguis, ???, Route 90).

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by Wigglez

Would you consider the Perimeter Highway a good idea as is? Build something far away from the city, for the city, that takes 60~ years for the city to catch up to?

Or, with the power of hindsight, would you have built it closer to the city 60 years ago? Say where our half-realized "inner ring road" currently exists (Bishop, Lagimodiere, Chief Peguis, ???, Route 90).

This.

[esquire]

As I understand it though, the Perimeter was not meant to be, at the outset at least, a route for intra-city traffic. It was the "by pass", a way for long-distance highway traffic to avoid having to go through town.

One would think that if the purpose of the Perimeter was to handle cross-town traffic, that it would have been built as an inner ring route instead... which Regina has already had in place for a long time.

[BuildUpWpg]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I'll see you in 500 years when regina expands that far out. It is a pretty nice highway from the looks of it.

Is it actually faster to use the bypass or just stay on the old highway when going through on #1?

It is faster. The eastern edge of Regina is really building up now with commercial. It's very slow to go through there even to reach the old bypass.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by BuildUpWpg

It is faster. The eastern edge of Regina is really building up now with commercial. It's very slow to go through there even to reach the old bypass.

They messed it up in the 90s allowing all of that commercial with access to #1. That was a very Winnipeggy approach to road-building.

[drew]

Out of two trips to Alberta since it has opened, I haven't used that new Regina bypass yet.

Making the trip out west to Calgary has the Regina stop for gas and food a habit, and we still always go straight onto Victoria Ave to make our stops.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by drew

Out of two trips to Alberta since it has opened, I haven't used that new Regina bypass yet.

Making the trip out west to Calgary has the Regina stop for gas and food a habit, and we still always go straight onto Victoria Ave to make our stops.

Well yeah, you have to stop at carls jr.

[drew]

^ or Fuddruckers.

There are a few other places that are extinct everywhere that still hang on in Regina IIRC... (Bonanza?)

[bomberjet]

Carls Jr. Yum.

I'm not against buildings highways and such. But spending $1.8 billllion dollars for that highway seems like a crazy amount of money for Regina and Saskatachewan. Saskatoon is looking at something similar.

They serve a purpose yes. But could they have used like half that money for a transit system instead? Probably better bang for the buck IMO.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by drew

^ or Fuddruckers.

There are a few other places that are extinct everywhere that still hang on in Regina IIRC... (Bonanza?)

13th Ave coffee house was my go-to

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Carls Jr. Yum.

I'm not against buildings highways and such. But spending $1.8 billllion dollars for that highway seems like a crazy amount of money for Regina and Saskatachewan. Saskatoon is looking at something similar.

They serve a purpose yes. But could they have used like half that money for a transit system instead? Probably better bang for the buck IMO.

Especially when this one really only benefits the trucking industry. Make them pay for most of it then.

[1ajs]

its on a nationl highway network and moves big truck traffic outside of the city

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Wigglez

Would you consider the Perimeter Highway a good idea as is? Build something far away from the city, for the city, that takes 60~ years for the city to catch up to?

Considering there was an parallel inner ring road plan going back to around the 1950s it sort of shows what 70+ years of poor transportation planning gets us.

The biggest challenge in inner ring road seemed to face from the start was the lack of land reserves, the need to potentially expropriate buildings and a lack of funding. A prime example is how the CN main line has an overpass and Concordia, which was planned as a major east-west route has an overpass but Lag and Regent didn't warrant one. At the time that would have been easily built v the built up status of today.

Even with hindsight, I do not think there would be a different outcome.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Considering there was an parallel inner ring road plan going back to around the 1950s it sort of shows what 70+ years of poor transportation planning gets us.

The biggest challenge in inner ring road seemed to face from the start was the lack of land reserves, the need to potentially expropriate buildings and a lack of funding. A prime example is how the CN main line has an overpass and Concordia, which was planned as a major east-west route has an overpass but Lag and Regent didn't warrant one. At the time that would have been easily built v the built up status of today.

Even with hindsight, I do not think there would be a different outcome.

Could the lack of land reserves be the result of Winnipeg unifying in 1972, well after the highway boom years in the 50s and 60s? I would imagine that the unification process took a few years to solidify a proper functioning city before moving on the future planning.

The areas that were well built up before the unification seem to be the trouble spots on the inner ring-road. Transcona/Plessis, Moray street north of the river, and St Vital near the mall.

The St vital stretch seems ok but little to no land reserved for interchanges, whereas Plessis and Moray have residential on the roadway itself.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I'll see you in 500 years when regina expands that far out. It is a pretty nice highway from the looks of it.

Is it actually faster to use the bypass or just stay on the old highway when going through on #1?

It is faster but it’s the difference of going around the city in 5 mins vs 10 mins

Originally Posted by Wigglez

Would you consider the Perimeter Highway a good idea as is? Build something far away from the city, for the city, that takes 60~ years for the city to catch up to?

Or, with the power of hindsight, would you have built it closer to the city 60 years ago? Say where our half-realized "inner ring road" currently exists (Bishop, Lagimodiere, Chief Peguis, ???, Route 90).

Tough to say. The power of hindsight is faulty because everything can be critiqued and reviewed, but little if anything can be done to change that course that has already happened. And these kinds of infrastructure decisions are made with a “hopeful foresight” - they are a product of their time, at that specific time, but so much can change over the years. 60 years ago, it was sexy to have highways and freeways for the car lifestyle. Now a days, the focus has shifted from sprawl to making use of space, building up instead of out, and focusing on active and healthy modes of transit, engaging pedestrians and healthy living - something which is harder to do in a more sprawled out city. I am sure Calgary would have a better public transit system if it wasn’t as spread out as it is. Then again, these cities in the prairies are car-centric cities and do need road infrastructure; Saskatchewan had the money, I am sure the economy and ease of access to transportation and their inland port played a factor.

If you look at a similarly spread out city in Edmonton, the ring road there (Anthony Henday) is about 78km in length, or ~12km shorter than the Perimeter. It seems to be a sort of hybrid between an outer and inner ring road in that regard, but was built out much later when it could be serviced by the CMA. It really works well with the city, is fast to get around (bar rush hour), much better serviced by the province (proper lighting all the way around). Ideally, the Winnipeg today would benefit more from something that size, closer to the city core and more useable by the CMA with hopefully more function. But 60 years ago there were other factors - design at the time, knowledge at the time, infrastructure and economy drivers at the time, also I don’t think Winnipeg had gone through the Unicity by then - so perhaps some impact when the province was making decisions

I am sure when the Regina bypass was being built all sorts of ring roads were looked at and taken into consideration. Though, what will we see in 60 more years? Electric vehicles and self driving vehicles may well be the established norm by then, how would that affect highway structure? Will something free flowing make more sense and then look back at the decisions made surrounding the Regina by-pass with the power hindsight?

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by roccerfeller

It is faster but it’s the difference of going around the city in 5 mins vs 10 mins



Tough to say. The power of hindsight is faulty because everything can be critiqued and reviewed, but little if anything can be done to change that course that has already happened. And these kinds of infrastructure decisions are made with a “hopeful foresight” - they are a product of their time, at that specific time, but so much can change over the years. 60 years ago, it was sexy to have highways and freeways for the car lifestyle. Now a days, the focus has shifted from sprawl to making use of space, building up instead of out, and focusing on active and healthy modes of transit, engaging pedestrians and healthy living - something which is harder to do in a more sprawled out city. I am sure Calgary would have a better public transit system if it wasn’t as spread out as it is. Then again, these cities in the prairies are car-centric cities and do need road infrastructure; Saskatchewan had the money, I am sure the economy and ease of access to transportation and their inland port played a factor.

If you look at a similarly spread out city in Edmonton, the ring road there (Anthony Henday) is about 78km in length, or ~12km shorter than the Perimeter. It seems to be a sort of hybrid between an outer and inner ring road in that regard, but was built out much later when it could be serviced by the CMA. It really works well with the city, is fast to get around (bar rush hour), much better serviced by the province (proper lighting all the way around). Ideally, the Winnipeg today would benefit more from something that size, closer to the city core and more useable by the CMA with hopefully more function. But 60 years ago there were other factors - design at the time, knowledge at the time, infrastructure and economy drivers at the time, also I don’t think Winnipeg had gone through the Unicity by then - so perhaps some impact when the province was making decisions

The Perimeter also used existing road allowances. It really just follows old section roads. To have built it closer to the city would have meant a lot of expropriation battles. And it was supposed to be a bypass, not a road for Winnipeggers to get to other parts of Winnipeg (now or in the future). That was the job of the Suburban Beltway, which was never built.

[bomberjet]

My whole point was at this time, IMO, Regina could've utilized the funding better than a road out in no mans land. I';m not against ring roads or anything like that as they do serve a purpose. Mostly for traffic to bypass the City, which is great. Imagine is the TCH still was running through the City? Nightmare.

In terms of Winnipeg. The beltway has/had the land set aside. It was purchased back in the 60's. It's all still there either empty or with roads such as Bishop and Chief. Except for the land in the Regent area. Which now has a car dealership, some houses, and the tall grass prairie.

[Wigglez]

Originally Posted by roccerfeller

It is faster but it’s the difference of going around the city in 5 mins vs 10 mins



Tough to say. The power of hindsight is faulty because everything can be critiqued and reviewed, but little if anything can be done to change that course that has already happened. And these kinds of infrastructure decisions are made with a “hopeful foresight” - they are a product of their time, at that specific time, but so much can change over the years. 60 years ago, it was sexy to have highways and freeways for the car lifestyle. Now a days, the focus has shifted from sprawl to making use of space, building up instead of out, and focusing on active and healthy modes of transit, engaging pedestrians and healthy living - something which is harder to do in a more sprawled out city. I am sure Calgary would have a better public transit system if it wasn’t as spread out as it is. Then again, these cities in the prairies are car-centric cities and do need road infrastructure; Saskatchewan had the money, I am sure the economy and ease of access to transportation and their inland port played a factor.

If you look at a similarly spread out city in Edmonton, the ring road there (Anthony Henday) is about 78km in length, or ~12km shorter than the Perimeter. It seems to be a sort of hybrid between an outer and inner ring road in that regard, but was built out much later when it could be serviced by the CMA. It really works well with the city, is fast to get around (bar rush hour), much better serviced by the province (proper lighting all the way around). Ideally, the Winnipeg today would benefit more from something that size, closer to the city core and more useable by the CMA with hopefully more function. But 60 years ago there were other factors - design at the time, knowledge at the time, infrastructure and economy drivers at the time, also I don’t think Winnipeg had gone through the Unicity by then - so perhaps some impact when the province was making decisions

I am sure when the Regina bypass was being built all sorts of ring roads were looked at and taken into consideration. Though, what will we see in 60 more years? Electric vehicles and self driving vehicles may well be the established norm by then, how would that affect highway structure? Will something free flowing make more sense and then look back at the decisions made surrounding the Regina by-pass with the power hindsight?

Thank you for the very well worded and well thought out response!

Hindsight is a questionable tool for sure. However we could also use words like "experience" to replace that word if others are looking at our experience with the Perimeter. To date I would argue that, while useful, closer to the city would have had additional benefits. And given the timeframe for how long it took to get the Perimeter close to a state of completion, the extra time added with issues building closer to the city wouldn't have likely made a big different in the long run - though would have potentially cost more than the Perimeter as it is today.

As you said above "Now a days, the focus has shifted from sprawl to making use of space, building up instead of out, and focusing on active and healthy modes of transit, engaging pedestrians and healthy living". This focus isn't completely new and has been turning into the major focus for the last 10-20 years now. And when society as a whole is moving towards this focus, Regina built a 60's style Winnipeg Perimeter. Given Winnipeg's experience and the overall usefulness of the Perimeter I'm surprised Regina gave it the green light.

The price tag and overall usefulness of the Regina build is what stands out to me. I know Sask has had a number of years of oil driven windfalls, however 1.2 billion dollars for a city bypass seems pretty aggressive for fairly minimal gains. They managed to build essentially the same thing Winnipeg built decades ago on a budget that could have given them much more.

2 honest questions for you (and others).

Would you consider the Perimeter a success? Given how long it took to build, how much it cost, and what its used for today.

And do you think something else could have been more successful? Specifically in this case an inner ring road, however if you can think of another similar piece of infrastructure go with that.

Note: I do specifically mean another piece of transport infrastructure. I can personally think of MANY things I'd rather see the money spent on, none of which include pavement and cars - however I'm leaving that out of this <3

[pacman]

I think the perimeter as a vision at the time made complete sense and I don't think hindsight should change that. The problem came with the actual construction / cutting corners that happened instead of being properly built out as it went along. If it was built in its current alignment all in one shot with full interchanges I would think it would be a perfect stretch of infrastructure with or without the ring road. It was designed far enough away to accommodate future growth but not unappealingly out of the way to use as a bypass and for citizens to use it to get around town instead of through town.

Would a complete ring road in addition to the perimeter be great to have? Of course. But that doesn't diminish the need/usefulness of the perimeter. If it was closer and served more as a hybrid instead of having a separate ring road I think it would have actually sped up sprawl and spread out the city even quicker since the road would become almost too convenient. To me it's a perfect balance where it is and just needs to be fully completed to really achieve the actual purpose it was built for.

For me it ends up being that the perimeter for better or worse exists in its current location and it only makes sense to utilize it in the best manner possible. Having the perimeter is a great asset, it's not getting demolished or going away ever, might as well improve it and use it to our benefit as much as possible.