[Dartmouth] King's Wharf (16 Kings Wharf Place) | 85 & 49 m | 27 & 15 fl | U/C

[TrudeauSockPuppet427]

I've lost track of the timeline. Is the 26 story tower now the tallest, or is there still another taller tower planned for the point? Is there some estimate for the year that would be started?

[mleblanc]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I think this is shaping into a very nice development, that will hopefully spur on more such developments in DTD in the near future.

IMHO this area has always had a certain charm that tends to be ignored by those focused on the DT Halifax side of the harbour, but perhaps it won't be for much longer.

Absolutely! The Lot E tower gives me Vancouver vibes with the large podium/ courtyard, and decent height tower. The existing towers have all been built decently with nice finishes/materials. I hope the rest of this development continues on this path, and we start to see development pick back up.

I hope they find a long term solution to the overpass problem. The clearest solution to me is just to raise that part of rail track and have underpasses for the traffic. I'm not an engineer, so I can't estimate that kind of cost though.

[Takeo]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I think this is shaping into a very nice development, that will hopefully spur on more such developments in DTD in the near future.

IMHO this area has always had a certain charm that tends to be ignored by those focused on the DT Halifax side of the harbour, but perhaps it won't be for much longer.

I completely agree. And I really like Downtown Dartmouth too. It gives me a subtle (very subtle but recognizable) vibe of when I used to live in various “villages” in Toronto (Bloor West, Beaches, etc.). I couldn’t figure out why but I think it’s the mercantile strip that is a) older / low rise and b) dominated by owner operator spots (a.k.a mom and pop) rather than chains and / or a big anchor retailer. It has a real urban village feel. I like it. It’s not quite as vibrant as it could be but it has great potential. And the peninsula is getting too expensive.

[Takeo]

Originally Posted by mleblanc

I hope they find a long term solution to the overpass problem. The clearest solution to me is just to raise that part of rail track and have underpasses for the traffic. I'm not an engineer, so I can't estimate that kind of cost though.

I think the new pedestrian and first responder ramp is the long term solution. They tried to get approval for other solutions for MANY years and this was the only thing all stakeholders (CN, City, Fares) could all agree on. As for raising the track, I’m also not an engineer but I do know that the grade for a track is very limited. Something like a maximum 1 degree incline? So they’d likely have to raise miles of track for it to reach the required elevation at the foot of Prince St.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I like how DT Dartmouth is evolving. Having grown up in the area, I recall, when Dartmouth was a separate city, that the downtown are had a nice vibe and was the place to go for shopping if you didn't want to cross the harbour. It was small, but along with Commercial St (Alderney Dr.) there were enough shops there, including a grocery store, that you could get pretty much anything you needed. The anchor store (the brick building on the corner of Portland and King Streets) was Woolworth's dept. store, and there were a number of other specialty-type shops along the street, like Jacobson's clothing store, Meyer's Sports Store, etc. It was a fairly vibrant area actually.

Of course a ferry ride would take you to the "big" stores in DT Halifax along Barrington and in Scotia Square if you were looking for something more specific.

With the shift to shopping centres, such as Dartmouth Shopping Centre in the 1950s (though the DT still seemed busy up to the mid 1970s) and Mic Mac Mall in the 1970s, the downtown started to go into a bit of a decline, but recently it's been great to see new smaller shops take over again. It's now a nice place to stroll around, stop in for a craft brew (or whatever your preference - in non-Covid times, of course) or browse some of the shops. With Kings Wharf, I can feel it revitalizing all over again, and it's a good thing.

I'm also anxious to see what the Canal St. area will look like in a few years time, once that development starts to take off.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

It was small, but along with Commercial St (Alderney Dr.) there were enough shops there, including a grocery store, that you could get pretty much anything you needed. The anchor store (the brick building on the corner of Portland and King Streets) was Woolworth's dept. store, and there were a number of other specialty-type shops along the street, like Jacobson's clothing store, Meyer's Sports Store, etc. It was a fairly vibrant area actually.

With the shift to shopping centres, such as Dartmouth Shopping Centre in the 1950s (though the DT still seemed busy up to the mid 1970s) and Mic Mac Mall in the 1970s, the downtown started to go into a bit of a decline, but recently it's been great to see new smaller shops take over again. :

I share your optimism about downtown Dartmouth's renaissance, as well as fond memories of what a bustling commercial center it used to be.

Along with Woolworths there was also Steadmans on Portland, and The Met on Commercial. Also two supermarkets - Dominion on Canal and IGA on Portland - and, along with Myers on Portland there was Dartmouth Sports Store on the corner of Commercial and Ochterloney. Remember Peoples Hardware? Walker's Variety? The 5 and 10 Cent store? The Candy Bowl? The Mayfair Theater? Owl Drug Store? Brothers Lunch? Peoples Lunch? And lots more...

I think "...the downtown started to go into a bit of a decline" is more than a bit of an understatement, though. Mic Mac Mall pretty much singlehandedly killed downtown Dartmouth. Within about five years of its opening, downtown was nearly a dead zone, dominated by tattoo parlors. pawn shops and boarded-up windows. It's taken almost fifty years to recover, but things are finally looking up.

[Keith P.]

The decline of malls in recent years may give DT Dartmouth a chance to revive. While optimism is always good I do not find it a particularly attractive retail offering at present. Some hipster-type stores and restos/breweries but very little in the way of places to purchase daily necessities or mainstream merchandise, and still lots of what I call "negative businesses" (tattoo shops, head shops, etc) along with essentially dead buildings/land. There was talk of a grocery store about 10 years ago around the Greenvale end of the Ochterloney/Portland area but that has now passed. If one of those gets established DT other businesses will follow.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

There was talk of a grocery store about 10 years ago around the Greenvale end of the Ochterloney/Portland area but that has now passed. If one of those gets established DT other businesses will follow.

I look at it the other way. I think once there's a sufficient mass of people living in the area, businesses of that sort will return.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I look at it the other way. I think once there's a sufficient mass of people living in the area, businesses of that sort will return.

I’m sure the discussion on new businesses will only grow as King’s Wharf fills out, we’ve only seen a fraction of the project rise to completion. I think it would be nice to see something beyond bakeries and microbreweries. They’re still well suited to the area and the lifestyle may draw people to King’s Wharf, but I think it would be a sign the neighbourhood has come of age if we see more generic stores improving convenience.

The chat here has made me wonder if King’s Wharf will ever be called the “New Dartmouth”.

[Jonovision]

Originally Posted by TrudeauSockPuppet427

I've lost track of the timeline. Is the 26 story tower now the tallest, or is there still another taller tower planned for the point? Is there some estimate for the year that would be started?

There is still a plan for a 42 storey or 120m tower at the end of the currently built street on the site. But I think that will likely be the very last piece of this development built.

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm wondering about the whole "build it and they will come" philosophy when it comes to Kings Wharf, I have serious doubts that it will work for the foreseeable future. Downtown Dartmouth is not and will never be Downtown Halifax, it will probably never be a reasonable facsimile either, the few times I've been in that area, I've thought to myself, who in hell would want to live on this side of the pond. It does have great views of downtown Halifax though, I will give it that.

Jethro

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine

I'm wondering about the whole "build it and they will come" philosophy when it comes to Kings Wharf, I have serious doubts that it will work for the foreseeable future.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "it" and "they". If it means a downtown Halifax level of business then that probably won't happen anytime soon. But I don't think it is far-fetched to imagine a few thousand people moving to the area over the next decade or so and some new businesses opening up, and maybe a kind of positive feedback cycle as the new amenities make the area more convenient and attractive.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I share your optimism about downtown Dartmouth's renaissance, as well as fond memories of what a bustling commercial center it used to be.

Along with Woolworths there was also Steadmans on Portland, and The Met on Commercial. Also two supermarkets - Dominion on Canal and IGA on Portland - and, along with Myers on Portland there was Dartmouth Sports Store on the corner of Commercial and Ochterloney. Remember Peoples Hardware? Walker's Variety? The 5 and 10 Cent store? The Candy Bowl? The Mayfair Theater? Owl Drug Store? Brothers Lunch? Peoples Lunch? And lots more...

I think "...the downtown started to go into a bit of a decline" is more than a bit of an understatement, though. Mic Mac Mall pretty much singlehandedly killed downtown Dartmouth. Within about five years of its opening, downtown was nearly a dead zone, dominated by tattoo parlors. pawn shops and boarded-up windows. It's taken almost fifty years to recover, but things are finally looking up.

Yes, I remember most of those places, not to mention Fisher's Stationery, Hiltz Shoes, among others. There was also a Capitol Store on Portland and Dundas Theatre just around the block.

Decline was the polite way of saying it became really run down quite quickly, with mom and pop shops largely replaced by bikers and strip joints. Where it is today is leaps and bounds above where it was 25 years ago IMHO.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine

I'm wondering about the whole "build it and they will come" philosophy when it comes to Kings Wharf, I have serious doubts that it will work for the foreseeable future. Downtown Dartmouth is not and will never be Downtown Halifax, it will probably never be a reasonable facsimile either, the few times I've been in that area, I've thought to myself, who in hell would want to live on this side of the pond. It does have great views of downtown Halifax though, I will give it that.

Jethro

It's not just Kings Wharf, as there are other potential major development sites in the area, the Canal Street area is one of them. One would think that after this happens, it will hit a critical mass where a business case becomes viable to start opening stores, etc.

I think you miss the point a little, though. Downtown Dartmouth will never be Downtown Halifax, nor should it be. It has the potential to be a neat little community with a buffer zone from the hustle and bustle of DT Halifax, like it used to be, only a little more urban. So while you turn your nose up at the Dartmouth side because it will never be 'as good' as the Halifax side, there are those of us who would prefer to not be DT Halifax. If you want to go there, hop on the ferry, and then you get to leave it at the end of the day.

It's all in what you want IMHO, and I suspect there will be more people who will be able to see the value in this kind of community in the near future.

[Jethro Bodine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

It's not just Kings Wharf, as there are other potential major development sites in the area, the Canal Street area is one of them. One would think that after this happens, it will hit a critical mass where a business case becomes viable to start opening stores, etc.

I think you miss the point a little, though. Downtown Dartmouth will never be Downtown Halifax, nor should it be. It has the potential to be a neat little community with a buffer zone from the hustle and bustle of DT Halifax, like it used to be, only a little more urban. So while you turn your nose up at the Dartmouth side because it will never be 'as good' as the Halifax side, there are those of us who would prefer to not be DT Halifax. If you want to go there, hop on the ferry, and then you get to leave it at the end of the day.

It's all in what you want IMHO, and I suspect there will be more people who will be able to see the value in this kind of community in the near future.

I like Dartmouth, have a lot of friends who live in Dartmouth, I go quite often to visit them, but living in the suburbs is totally different than living in the downtown area. I'm not the developer putting the money down so it makes no never mind to me, it's my humble opinion only, I wish them all the luck in the world with their business. There may be people who invest in a condo or rent an apartment in that particular area, it just won't be me.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Yes, I remember most of those places, not to mention Fisher's Stationery, Hiltz Shoes, among others. There was also a Capitol Store on Portland and Dundas Theatre just around the block.

Decline was the polite way of saying it became really run down quite quickly, with mom and pop shops largely replaced by bikers and strip joints. Where it is today is leaps and bounds above where it was 25 years ago IMHO.

Not to mention the Nieforth Furnishers, or Warner's, or my all-time favorite, the Empire Store...we could probably do this all day...

Downtown Dartmouth will never be the shopping district it once was; malls changed all that long ago and now there's online shopping to contend with. It won't be a shopping destination for people who want to buy clothes or shoes or furniture. But that doesn't mean it can't be a thriving commercial area, and it appears to be shaping up that way.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine

I like Dartmouth, have a lot of friends who live in Dartmouth, I go quite often to visit them, but living in the suburbs is totally different than living in the downtown area. I'm not the developer putting the money down so it makes no never mind to me, it's my humble opinion only, I wish them all the luck in the world with their business. There may be people who invest in a condo or rent an apartment in that particular area, it just won't be me.

I wouldn’t consider DT Dartmouth to be a suburb. I think it’s a pretty attractive location; being close to Halifax and burnside you get the best of both worlds. The older suburbs of Dartmouth aren’t too far a walk from the ferry terminal either.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine

I like Dartmouth, have a lot of friends who live in Dartmouth, I go quite often to visit them, but living in the suburbs is totally different than living in the downtown area. I'm not the developer putting the money down so it makes no never mind to me, it's my humble opinion only, I wish them all the luck in the world with their business. There may be people who invest in a condo or rent an apartment in that particular area, it just won't be me.

Hey that's cool, nothing wrong with expressing your opinion. I offer mine probably more than people would like me to.

Having lived the first thirty-some years of my life in the area, and having watched it change over the years, I see potential there for the future. IMHO, it's in the 'diamond in the rough' stage at the moment.

Time will tell.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Not to mention the Nieforth Furnishers, or Warner's, or my all-time favorite, the Empire Store...we could probably do this all day...

Downtown Dartmouth will never be the shopping district it once was; malls changed all that long ago and now there's online shopping to contend with. It won't be a shopping destination for people who want to buy clothes or shoes or furniture. But that doesn't mean it can't be a thriving commercial area, and it appears to be shaping up that way.

Yep, I agree.

And, yes, the more I think about it, the more that comes back to me, so it's best not to get me started...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

I wouldn’t consider DT Dartmouth to be a suburb. I think it’s a pretty attractive location; being close to Halifax and burnside you get the best of both worlds. The older suburbs of Dartmouth aren’t too far a walk from the ferry terminal either.

The area that I consider to be 'old Dartmouth' was never really a suburb, but just part of of Dartmouth as it grew from town to city status (before amalgamation).

Quaker House on Ochterloney is one of many that were built in the 1700s, and adjacent neighbourhoods sprouted up as the city grew. Like most cities that are situated on harbours, it started from the water and grew inland. The neighbourhood where I lived for many years was built in the early 1900s, long before the concept of 'the suburbs' was really a thing in Canada. It was only a 10 minute walk from the ferry, and many people who lived there were able to walk to work in DT Halifax from their Dartmouth home. Not really the classic definition of car-reliant suburb living, IMHO.

I would consider places like Woodlawn or Cole Harbour to be suburbs of Dartmouth, in the traditional sense.