Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by wave46

I thought the billionaire owner was the hurdle. The NFL won't deal with companies.

That, and the stadium. And fleecing taxpayers.

A stadium is not an obstacle. It's a 2-3 year construction project. The last 4 expansion teams didn't have a stadium prior to being awarded their teams either, they built them prior to play.

As for ownership, you are correct that the NFL doesn't deal with corporate owners. They also don't require one single person to be the entirety of the money behind the team. So, the obvious front men for this would be the existing big sports owners, Ed Rogers and Larry Tanenbaum. I'm sure between them, and the prestige of being part of the NFL, they can wrestle together an ownership group suitable to the league.

[esquire]

This is pretty cool... Regina has converted the playing surface at Mosaic Stadium into a giant public skating rink for the next two months.



https://regina.ctvnews.ca/iceville-m...utoPlay%3Dtrue

[megadude]

Wondering why this doesn't happen more often. Is it possible they don't want to dilute the stadium experience? As in if some people go skating there and take in the stadium spectacle, it won't be special to them anymore and won't care about going to football games?

Or does the setup and overhead actually outweigh the revenue from this?

I skated at MLG when I was a kid for Easter Seals annual event and I know they had open skates at ACC before but I never got the chance to go. Also skated where Michigan State plays hockey which was only cool because of the advertising and team logo all over the place. Skating at a stadium would be super cool.

Actually, a top 25 list of cool public skating venues in Canada would be nice. I see there are a few top 10 but there's so much more to include. I feel like there's been a proliferation of skating trails being built in the last few years like under the Gardner Expressway in downtown TO or trails through the woods like up in Muskoka. Ones like that could be added to the iconic ones like Rideau Canal or in Lake Louise or Nathan Philips Square where I am, etc. You can also skate on Toronto Harbour if the conditions cooperate, which I feel like is usually not the case but in some years you can skate from the city out to the islands. My coworker did it once and it's probably illegal now if not already when he did it ten years ago. He actually broke his arm that time because he was going backwards and hit a rut.

I think this could be a thread on its own.

[esquire]

^ The interesting thing about this event in Regina is that it's free (although I do believe they are accepting charitable donations)... you have to get a ticket since it's limited to 30 skaters at a time due to covid protocols, but beyond that it's just meant to be a fun event. It won't make any money, which is why, I suppose, it isn't a common thing.

I live a stone's throw from IG Field and I was actually daydreaming about how cool it would be if the Bombers flooded it and turned it into a huge ice rink. Little did I know that they were actually doing it in Regina?!

The Jets have a season ticket holder skate every year and I've enjoyed taking my son to that event... it is a weirdly big thrill even for me to skate on NHL ice. They assign you a specific block of time, which was nice as the rink wouldn't get too crowded.

Winnipeg's marquee public skating venue is the trails out on the rivers... from what I've heard, they are set to open soon. I haven't been on the skating trails in years but I think I might give them a go this year.

[Coldrsx]

^^ that's awesome.
----

Here are two smaller-scale stadium proposals for Edmonton.





Terwillegar Sport Park





Images from
https://dubarchitects.ca

[esquire]

^ Interesting. Are those affiliated with any teams/organizations, or are they being built by the City?

Worth pointing out that Edmonton already has a pretty impressive collection of stadiums including Commonwealth Stadium, Clarke Park and Telus Field. There are also some nice smaller ones like Foote Field (U of A) and out in Spruce Grove although I can't remember the name. You add these two to the mix and Edmonton will be the best outdoor stadium city in the country, if it isn't already.

[Coldrsx]

City projects.

One is a replacement, one is new.

[blueandgoldguy]

Calgary's new arena was originally supposed to open in 2024. If that's still the case, you would think detailed renders would have been released to the public at this point especially when you consider it will likely take 2.5 years to clear the land and build the arena.

Perhaps it will be delayed due to the financial difficulties experienced by Flames ownership in recent years?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Calgary's new arena was originally supposed to open in 2024. If that's still the case, you would think detailed renders would have been released to the public at this point especially when you consider it will likely take 2.5 years to clear the land and build the arena.

Perhaps it will be delayed due to the financial difficulties experienced by Flames ownership in recent years?

What financial difficulties?

As of this past June the plan is to start construction in August 2021 and have the facility ready for the 2024–2025 NHL season. Most of what's happening now is being done behind closed doors. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see detailed renders until right before they start construction.

[craner]

Calgary Event Centre
From Jan. 2020:
https://cdn.skyrisecities.com/forum/...ne-png.228118/
The latest info indicates an Aug. 2021 construction start. Nothing about release of detailed construction documents.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

What financial difficulties?

As of this past June the plan is to start construction in August 2021 and have the facility ready for the 2024–2025 NHL season. Most of what's happening now is being done behind closed doors. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see detailed renders until right before they start construction.

The owner's personal wealth has taken a significant hit in recent years as his primary source of income is oil.

Originally Posted by craner

Calgary Event Centre
From Jan. 2020:
https://cdn.skyrisecities.com/forum/...ne-png.228118/
The latest info indicates an Aug. 2021 construction start. Nothing about release of detailed construction documents.

Thanks for that. I hope this schedule remains intact. I'm looking forward to seeing the renders next spring/summer. The new arena design - several upper decks with each one extending beyond the one below - is fascinating, and should, in theory, lead to a superior viewing experience when compared to traditional upper seating bowl arrangements.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

The owner's personal wealth has taken a significant hit in recent years as his primary source of income is oil.



Thanks for that. I hope this schedule remains intact. I'm looking forward to seeing the renders next spring/summer. The new arena design - several upper decks with each one extending beyond the one below - is fascinating, and should, in theory, lead to a superior viewing experience when compared to traditional upper seating bowl arrangements.

Flames have more than one owner and none of them are solely in oil and gas.

Here's an article from June 2020 from the NHL that indicates the arena is still set to start construction in August 2021 and be done by May 2024.

https://www.nhl.com/news/calgary-fla...on/c-317256534

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by thurmas

there are still a few NA markets left to relocate or expand to

for NBA Seattle, Vancouver or Montreal, Kansas City

for NHL Quebec City, Milwaukee, Houston

for NFL San Diego, St Louis, San Antonio,

for MLB, Portland, Nashville, Charlotte

For the NHL, Milwaukee would be out of the running,due to the new NBA arena being somewhat incompatible with NHL arena standards similar to Barclays Arena where the Islanders played for a few seasons. There was also certain issues with Chicago not wanting a franchise in Milwaukee in the early 90s, when the Bradley Center was relatively new.

Quebec and Houston would be the two most likely markets for future expansion or relocation, with Portland,OR being a wildcard.

The NFL would likely have the most options as to where the league would expand/relocate, as football is clearly the #1 sport in America. I could see San Diego, St.Louis, Salt Lake City, Memphis, San Antonio, Austin, Orlando, and Norfolk all being interested in landing an NFL team. One would think Toronto would also be a frontrunner to land an NFL team, if a 70,000 seat stadium was built.

There is almost zero chance the NFL would expand to Mexico or the UK. The logistics of putting a team in London would be unfavorable (travel, and the fact that the time zone would be incomparable with running games in the UK on prime time TV). The political situation in Mexico is too unstable.

I am unsure if there are any cities (aside from Montreal), that desire an MLB team in 2021. In 2002, the league was set to retract the Expos and Twins, as there were no other cities lined up to purchase and relocate the teams. Minneapolis managed to save the Twins, while the Expos eventually were relocated to Washington DC, after playing dozens of games in Puerto Rico.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

For the NHL, Milwaukee would be out of the running due to the new NBA arena being somewhat incompatible with NHL arena standards similar to Barclays Arena, where the Islanders played for a few seasons. There was also certain issues with Chicago not wanting a franchise in Milwaukee in the early 90s, when the Bradley Center was relatively new.

Quebec and Houston would be the two most likely markets for future expansion or relocation, with Portland,OR being a wildcard.

The NFL would likely have the most options as to where the league would expand/relocate, as football is clearly the #1 sport in America. I could see San Diego, St.Louis, Salt Lake City, Memphis, San Antonio, Austin, Orlando, and Norfolk all being interested in landing an NFL team. One would think Toronto would also be a frontrunner to land an NFL team, if a 70,000 seat stadium was built.

There is almost zero chance the NFL would expand to Mexico or the UK. The logistics of putting a team in London would be unfavourable (travel, and the fact that the time zone would be incomparable with running games in the UK on prime time TV). The political situation in Mexico is too unstable.

I am unsure if there are any cities (aside from Montreal), that desire an MLB team in 2021. In 2002, the league was set to retract the Expos and Twins, as there were no other cities lined up to purchase and relocate the teams. Minneapolis managed to save the Twins, while the Expos eventually were relocated to Washington DC, after playing dozens of games in Puerto Rico.

If I recall, Milwaukee's Fiserv Forum is fine for hockey. Hard to believe a Wisconsin arena would not be compatible with hockey. NHL team going there? Not a chance as the market is far too close to Chicago. I don't agree with that as I view Wisconsin as an obvious NHL market but the Blackhawks may disagree.

NHL in Canada, i.e. Quebec is only going to be for a relocation. The realities of expansion fees are too much for Canadian teams to stomach right now. If NBA and NFL can reportedly command $2-3 Billion for a one-shot expansion fee the NHL will come close to $1 billion. How many Canadian markets have $1 billion USD lying around? A Relocation fee will be much lower. Also, the NHL gets to keep a safe-island for any team that blows up fiscally just like Atlanta to Winnipeg.

NFL, next. The NFL is the #1 sport in America, yes you're correct, but it is already tapped out and saturated as far as markets. NFL is a TV product and there has to be a case that going to X city will grow TV numbers. Cities such as Salt Lake and Memphis are either not going to add much to the TV pot (Also, Salt Lake is a no-go as how can you schedule Sunday home games for a market that is largely Mormon/LDS? Utah Jazz don't play Sunday homes for this exact reason). Sorry, none of those cities you mentioned will ever get a team. Market quality is poor for the remaining USA markets. This is the exact reason why the NFL is attempting to gamble on a London franchise as they provide them new territory for growth. NFL is nearly maxed out in the USA market - they have a cap for growth. Toronto will get a team before Salt Lake City.

You will see expansion plans be revised now as leagues are strapped for cash. Very easy to just expand and get an infusion of $15-40 million per team to help them cover their Covid-19 losses.

[craner]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Thanks for that. I hope this schedule remains intact. I'm looking forward to seeing the renders next spring/summer. The new arena design - several upper decks with each one extending beyond the one below - is fascinating, and should, in theory, lead to a superior viewing experience when compared to traditional upper seating bowl arrangements.

I don’t think they are pursuing the “inverted bowl” design for the Flames new arena any longer. Don’t want to be the guinea pigs I guess.

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

For the NHL, Milwaukee would be out of the running,due to the new NBA arena being somewhat incompatible with NHL arena standards similar to Barclays Arena where the Islanders played for a few seasons. There was also certain issues with Chicago not wanting a franchise in Milwaukee in the early 90s, when the Bradley Center was relatively new.

Quebec and Houston would be the two most likely markets for future expansion or relocation, with Portland,OR being a wildcard.

The NFL would likely have the most options as to where the league would expand/relocate, as football is clearly the #1 sport in America. I could see San Diego, St.Louis, Salt Lake City, Memphis, San Antonio, Austin, Orlando, and Norfolk all being interested in landing an NFL team. One would think Toronto would also be a frontrunner to land an NFL team, if a 70,000 seat stadium was built.

There is almost zero chance the NFL would expand to Mexico or the UK. The logistics of putting a team in London would be unfavorable (travel, and the fact that the time zone would be incomparable with running games in the UK on prime time TV). The political situation in Mexico is too unstable.

I am unsure if there are any cities (aside from Montreal), that desire an MLB team in 2021. In 2002, the league was set to retract the Expos and Twins, as there were no other cities lined up to purchase and relocate the teams. Minneapolis managed to save the Twins, while the Expos eventually were relocated to Washington DC, after playing dozens of games in Puerto Rico.

MLB have more options than you think. Nashville and Portland both have plans well under way for new stadiums. Montreal is a lock once they sort a new stadium as well.

NHL has Kansas City, Houston, Portland, Quebec City, Salt Lake City, hell even San Diego is planning a new arena....

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by osmo

NFL, next. The NFL is the #1 sport in America, yes you're correct, but it is already tapped out and saturated as far as markets. NFL is a TV product and there has to be a case that going to X city will grow TV numbers. Cities such as Salt Lake and Memphis are either not going to add much to the TV pot (Also, Salt Lake is a no-go as how can you schedule Sunday home games for a market that is largely Mormon/LDS? Utah Jazz don't play Sunday homes for this exact reason). Sorry, none of those cities you mentioned will ever get a team. Market quality is poor for the remaining USA markets. This is the exact reason why the NFL is attempting to gamble on a London franchise as they provide them new territory for growth. NFL is nearly maxed out in the USA market - they have a cap for growth. Toronto will get a team before Salt Lake City.

This is why a European market will never get an NFL team.Ever.

It's a horrible TV market, and the UK time zone will prevent this from happening, as the games are not compatible with any time other than maybe noon on Sundays. Forget about 4 PM eastern games, or any Sunday/Monday Night football.

Additionally, London has a poor history of supporting pro football. They ahve tried numerous times, and the interest is just not there. The league would much prefer to go to Toronto, if and when a large stadium is built.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by osmo

If I recall, Milwaukee's Fiserv Forum is fine for hockey. Hard to believe a Wisconsin arena would not be compatible with hockey. NHL team going there? Not a chance as the market is far too close to Chicago. I don't agree with that as I view Wisconsin as an obvious NHL market but the Blackhawks may disagree.

I don't know enough about the Fiserv, but Blackdog's quote about Barclays was about the NHL layout. Barclays is fine for hockey. Just not hockey that requires good seating for 17000 or more people. This could possibly be the case for Fiserv as well. The hockey seating diagram for Fiserv at least shows centre ice at the centre of the building, unlike Barclays. Doesn't mean sightlines are still ideal though. The NBA arena in Phoenix wasn't suitable for NHL hockey either due to sightlines, and that was the arena the Air Canada Centre in Toronto was modelled after. When the Leafs bought the Raptors and the under-construction ACC, they had to make changes on the fly to make it more hockey friendly.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by craner

I don’t think they are pursuing the “inverted bowl” design for the Flames new arena any longer. Don’t want to be the guinea pigs I guess.

Really? That's disappointing if true. No official announcement has been made based on your statement though, correct? More of heard it through the grapevine?

[blueandgoldguy]

Milwaukee is too small (1.6 million metro) and population growth has been at a trickle for a long period of time. They would not be able to adequately support 4 pro teams - I count the packers as they are only a couple hours driving distance from Milwaukee and thousands of season ticket holders are from the area. Hockey is a no go there.

London would be desirable given its world class status and massive tv audience, with the added benefit of already available stadium infrastructure. However, given the logistics of a single European NFL team several time zones away, it is likely improbable.

Toronto will almost certainly never have an NFL team. For starters an expansion team will likely be $3 billion US (average valuation for an NFL team) to compensate for splitting the the TV contracts between 33 teams vs 32. Second, a new domed stadium seating 65- 70,000 would likely cost $2 billion CDN. There would likely be minimal public money allocated from the province and city for such a project (maybe discounted public land, certain tax benefits that amount to tens of millions at most).

PSLs play an important role in funding the ownership's portion of stadium financing. The pool of wealthy people in Toronto who happen to have a passion for football AND are willing to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on those PSLs would not be sufficient to reach an ideal goal of $500 - $700 million to assist in financing the stadium.

Good luck finding private investors willing to spend $6 billion to bring an NFL franchise to Toronto. It's not going to happen.