New "Downtown" Arena location?

[Marshsparrow]

they aren't moving to Gatineau... point final

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If it were such a slam dunk then cities across Canada would be building free arenas for NHL teams without much hesitation. But most of them don't.

Also, if by payroll taxes you mean player salaries I doubt Quebec would get much of that as you pay taxes in the province you live in, not the one you work in. I suspect most Senators players even if they played in Gatineau, would still live in Ottawa.

Finally, I don't see the name change as a certainty.

It's a bit unique here as they would for sure be moving provinces and for sure would not have a team otherwise. Not the case for other teams. I think the NHL players including visiting teams have to pay tax where the game takes place.

I guess the NY Jets and Giants both play in New Jersey which is a fairly similar situation and credited with paying off many times over for New Jersey even though they kept the New York name.

[Clinton Desveaux]

Billings Bridge is an interesting discussion point.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Clinton Desveaux

Billings Bridge is an interesting discussion point.

With the Bank Subway in mind?

Not sure we could have two sports and entertainment districts competing within a little over 1 kilometer on the same street/transit line. I think it's preferable to build on the Confederation Line to serve the City's main transit spine and reduce the number of transfers required.

Here's a theory of what might happen. And it's dependant on a new Sens owner (as is any theoretical central NHL arena). I brought thus up up on the Lansdowne thread about a month ago.

When comes the time to replace the north side stands and Civic Centre, the City, OSEG, NCC and Sens will strike a deal to build a new 16,000-18,000 seat arena at LeBreton for the Sens and 67's, leaving the Civic Centre space for residential and hotel use.

Both Watson and the NCC have repeatedly expressed interest in a LeBreton arena, within walking distance from two O-Train Lines, so it still seems within the realm of possibility if Melnyk can sell within 5 years.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

With the Bank Subway in mind?

Not sure we could have two sports and entertainment districts competing within a little over 1 kilometer on the same street/transit line. I think it's preferable to build on the Confederation Line to serve the City's main transit spine and reduce the number of transfers required.

Here's a theory of what might happen. And it's dependant on a new Sens owner (as is any theoretical central NHL arena). I brought thus up up on the Lansdowne thread about a month ago.

When comes the time to replace the north side stands and Civic Centre, the City, OSEG, NCC and Sens will strike a deal to build a new 16,000-18,000 seat arena at LeBreton for the Sens and 67's, leaving the Civic Centre space for residential and hotel use.

Both Watson and the NCC have repeatedly expressed interest in a LeBreton arena, within walking distance from two O-Train Lines, so it still seems within the realm of possibility if Melnyk can sell within 5 years.

I think it's quite possible that your prediction comes true, but there are a few big drawbacks for OSEG. Moving a team out of Lansdowne so they can pay rent elsewhere is not good for their bottom line. The entire development is dependent on the sports properties there, which will include tenant organizations like the Blackjacks, so I have trouble seeing the incentive for them to give up 80+ dates of sports per year, plus concerts, university tournaments etc.

The second issue is the size of the arena. With very few exceptions, junior teams playing in NHL sized arenas have not been successful, as the atmosphere just isn't there, and the price structures in NHL arenas are not compatible with the OHL market.

As for Billings Bridge, I could definitely see that as a possibility, as it fits nicely in a developing urban area that is very central. It's definitely not as good as Lebreton based on proximity to downtown and transit. But I could see a scenario where the mall is redeveloped into mixed use, and an arena would fit in towards the west side of the site, or maybe even on the RA Centre land. It really isn't that far to the O-Train from there, so with some new pedestrian links, an arena could have access to both the O-Train and the Billings Bridge station. It is also relatively accessible for those driving from the south. And you would have a nice riverside site for the TV shots.

An arena that is built in conjunction with new facilities at the RA Centre is an interesting possibility in terms of ensuring use when events are not taking place. And the location near Bank St. and walkable to Lansdowne could be a big advantage for the site. I'm seeing a decent case for it.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by phil235

I think it's quite possible that your prediction comes true, but there are a few big drawbacks for OSEG. Moving a team out of Lansdowne so they can pay rent elsewhere is not good for their bottom line. The entire development is dependent on the sports properties there, which will include tenant organizations like the Blackjacks, so I have trouble seeing the incentive for them to give up 80+ dates of sports per year, plus concerts, university tournaments etc.

The second issue is the size of the arena. With very few exceptions, junior teams playing in NHL sized arenas have not been successful, as the atmosphere just isn't there, and the price structures in NHL arenas are not compatible with the OHL market.

As for Billings Bridge, I could definitely see that as a possibility, as it fits nicely in a developing urban area that is very central. It's definitely not as good as Lebreton based on proximity to downtown and transit. But I could see a scenario where the mall is redeveloped into mixed use, and an arena would fit in towards the west side of the site, or maybe even on the RA Centre land. It really isn't that far to the O-Train from there, so with some new pedestrian links, an arena could have access to both the O-Train and the Billings Bridge station. It is also relatively accessible for those driving from the south. And you would have a nice riverside site for the TV shots.

An arena that is built in conjunction with new facilities at the RA Centre is an interesting possibility in terms of ensuring use when events are not taking place. And the location near Bank St. and walkable to Lansdowne could be a big advantage for the site. I'm seeing a decent case for it.

Don't forget that the proposed Baseline BRT could also integrated, so it could potentially have transit connections almost as good as Lebreton Flats.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I guess there might be an opportunity to be very "21st Century" and rebrand them with an indigenous name that works for both sides of the river, like Kitchissippi Senators or Atawe Senators, but my money would still be on them still being called the Ottawa Senators.

Yeah. It would be a New York Jets/Giants thing despite both teams being in New Jersey.

The best 21st century rebranding I've seen is Washington Football Team. I hope it never changes.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by phil235

I think it's quite possible that your prediction comes true, but there are a few big drawbacks for OSEG. Moving a team out of Lansdowne so they can pay rent elsewhere is not good for their bottom line. The entire development is dependent on the sports properties there, which will include tenant organizations like the Blackjacks, so I have trouble seeing the incentive for them to give up 80+ dates of sports per year, plus concerts, university tournaments etc.

I'm sure the concert dates and random sport event hosting would be a bigger loss for OSEG than revenue the 67s pull in. I could be wrong but junior hockey teams aren't exactly profit-drivers unless you're a London or Kitchener (IE the only show in town).

Originally Posted by phil235

The second issue is the size of the arena. With very few exceptions, junior teams playing in NHL sized arenas have not been successful, as the atmosphere just isn't there, and the price structures in NHL arenas are not compatible with the OHL market.

A lot of it simply comes down to having a right-sized facility. In truth, Lansdowne only has one team that has a facility that's the right size for them (REDBLACKs) with the other teams being shoe-horned into a stadium that's too big for them (Fury) or an arena that's too big for them (67s). As anyone will know, playing in a stadium or arena two or three times the needed size kills any atmosphere you're trying to build. 67s only really need an arena with 5-7K seats, and definitely need one with boxes. It'll be a bit strange when Gatineau has a better facility than the 67s for the first time ever.

Originally Posted by phil235

As for Billings Bridge, I could definitely see that as a possibility, as it fits nicely in a developing urban area that is very central. It's definitely not as good as Lebreton based on proximity to downtown and transit. But I could see a scenario where the mall is redeveloped into mixed use, and an arena would fit in towards the west side of the site, or maybe even on the RA Centre land. It really isn't that far to the O-Train from there, so with some new pedestrian links, an arena could have access to both the O-Train and the Billings Bridge station. It is also relatively accessible for those driving from the south. And you would have a nice riverside site for the TV shots.

Agreed with this.

[silvergate]

Originally Posted by phil235

I think it's quite possible that your prediction comes true, but there are a few big drawbacks for OSEG. Moving a team out of Lansdowne so they can pay rent elsewhere is not good for their bottom line. The entire development is dependent on the sports properties there, which will include tenant organizations like the Blackjacks, so I have trouble seeing the incentive for them to give up 80+ dates of sports per year, plus concerts, university tournaments etc.

The second issue is the size of the arena. With very few exceptions, junior teams playing in NHL sized arenas have not been successful, as the atmosphere just isn't there, and the price structures in NHL arenas are not compatible with the OHL market.

As for Billings Bridge, I could definitely see that as a possibility, as it fits nicely in a developing urban area that is very central. It's definitely not as good as Lebreton based on proximity to downtown and transit. But I could see a scenario where the mall is redeveloped into mixed use, and an arena would fit in towards the west side of the site, or maybe even on the RA Centre land. It really isn't that far to the O-Train from there, so with some new pedestrian links, an arena could have access to both the O-Train and the Billings Bridge station. It is also relatively accessible for those driving from the south. And you would have a nice riverside site for the TV shots.

An arena that is built in conjunction with new facilities at the RA Centre is an interesting possibility in terms of ensuring use when events are not taking place. And the location near Bank St. and walkable to Lansdowne could be a big advantage for the site. I'm seeing a decent case for it.

Gotta torpedo this, the RA Centre is not within a pleasant walking distance to Heron Station or the O-Train, and even if you put the arena on the easternmost part, it's still a bit of a hike to Billings Bridge Station. It will also take significant redevelopment effort to make this a walkable area, although I imagine a re-imagining of the Mall / RA Centre land similar to Lebreton could help.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I'm sure the concert dates and random sport event hosting would be a bigger loss for OSEG than revenue the 67s pull in. I could be wrong but junior hockey teams aren't exactly profit-drivers unless you're a London or Kitchener (IE the only show in town).


A lot of it simply comes down to having a right-sized facility. In truth, Lansdowne only has one team that has a facility that's the right size for them (REDBLACKs) with the other teams being shoe-horned into a stadium that's too big for them (Fury) or an arena that's too big for them (67s). As anyone will know, playing in a stadium or arena two or three times the needed size kills any atmosphere you're trying to build. 67s only really need an arena with 5-7K seats, and definitely need one with boxes. It'll be a bit strange when Gatineau has a better facility than the 67s for the first time ever.

I wouldn't discount the value of the 67s to OSEG's portfolio, as they provide regular income. They aren't London or Kitchener, but they are definitely right in that next tier. Kitchener's numbers are public, and recently they've brought in $6-7 million in what have been relatively down years, or at least years with no stars and no expectations. Ottawa is likely not that far behind. For OSEG, the ticket revenue is only part of the equation, as the 67s bring a lot of people to the site who spend money at the restaurants and stores.

The pandemic was unfortunate timing for the 67s, as they had a really good team and had really found their feet in terms of rebuilding their attendance (and more importantly, paid attendance). With the changes to the Civic Centre, they had around 6000 seats to sell, so right in the sweet spot that you mention. In the latter part of the year they were regularly at 5000 or more. No issues with atmosphere then.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by silvergate

Gotta torpedo this, the RA Centre is not within a pleasant walking distance to Heron Station or the O-Train, and even if you put the arena on the easternmost part, it's still a bit of a hike to Billings Bridge Station. It will also take significant redevelopment effort to make this a walkable area, although I imagine a re-imagining of the Mall / RA Centre land similar to Lebreton could help.

Sorry, I'm in no way suggesting that it is currently a pleasant walk anywhere. But if you had mixed use towards Bank, that could be much improved for pedestrians, and if you are putting $600 million in an arena, it wouldn't take much extra to connect it across Bronson. As the crow flies, you are only talking a few hundred metres to either of those.

[Harley613]

While we are playing with fantasy locations imagine this:

Feds have a lot of wasted space around the Edward Drake/Former CBC building. That building is empty but has the highest level of heritage protection (because it's frickin' awesome). Feds divest the property with an agreement to preserve the Edward Drake, and it's incorporated into a new entertainment district as a hotel.

Parking (circled in red): In addition to underground parking on site, Vincent Massey's parking lot is used on game nights and a footbridge is built, along with an agreement with the Feds/Canada Post to use their huge parking lot/garage on game nights (these lots sit empty in the evening anyhow).

Transit: O-train is already there (circled in blue). Baseline/Heron BRT will be there. Road access is incredible because it's at the junction of Riverside, Heron and Bronson. Excellent accessibility by numerous bike paths.

This site would be at the EXACT centre of the city, and it's adjacent to Carleton University which could be good for some sort of partnership. I can't think of a better location. Of course my little dream would be contingent on the Feds playing along so It'll never happen, but damn it would be cool.

[IMG]Untitled-1 by harley613, on Flickr[/IMG]

[jchamoun79]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Transit: O-train is already there (circled in blue). Baseline/Heron BRT will be there. Road access is incredible because it's at the junction of Riverside, Heron and Bronson. Excellent accessibility by numerous bike paths.

That's a pretty awesome plan! I especially like the adaptive reuse of the Edward Drake Building as a hotel. But I'm not sure that station, with its single track and platform, would cut it for NHL-arena use.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

I think it's quite possible that your prediction comes true, but there are a few big drawbacks for OSEG. Moving a team out of Lansdowne so they can pay rent elsewhere is not good for their bottom line. The entire development is dependent on the sports properties there, which will include tenant organizations like the Blackjacks, so I have trouble seeing the incentive for them to give up 80+ dates of sports per year, plus concerts, university tournaments etc.

The second issue is the size of the arena. With very few exceptions, junior teams playing in NHL sized arenas have not been successful, as the atmosphere just isn't there, and the price structures in NHL arenas are not compatible with the OHL market.

As for Billings Bridge, I could definitely see that as a possibility, as it fits nicely in a developing urban area that is very central. It's definitely not as good as Lebreton based on proximity to downtown and transit. But I could see a scenario where the mall is redeveloped into mixed use, and an arena would fit in towards the west side of the site, or maybe even on the RA Centre land. It really isn't that far to the O-Train from there, so with some new pedestrian links, an arena could have access to both the O-Train and the Billings Bridge station. It is also relatively accessible for those driving from the south. And you would have a nice riverside site for the TV shots.

An arena that is built in conjunction with new facilities at the RA Centre is an interesting possibility in terms of ensuring use when events are not taking place. And the location near Bank St. and walkable to Lansdowne could be a big advantage for the site. I'm seeing a decent case for it.

Replied in Lansdowne thread.

https://www.skyscraperpage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9138008&postcount=6802

[J.OT13]

That's a pretty decent plan Harley. For sure the Trillium Line and station would need a major upgrade, jchamoun79. Mooney's Bay station could be moved north, integrated with the arena complex and renamed something that actually makes sense (tied to arena naming rights?).

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by Harley613

While we are playing with fantasy locations imagine this:

Feds have a lot of wasted space around the Edward Drake/Former CBC building. That building is empty but has the highest level of heritage protection (because it's frickin' awesome). Feds divest the property with an agreement to preserve the Edward Drake, and it's incorporated into a new entertainment district as a hotel.

Parking (circled in red): In addition to underground parking on site, Vincent Massey's parking lot is used on game nights and a footbridge is built, along with an agreement with the Feds/Canada Post to use their huge parking lot/garage on game nights (these lots sit empty in the evening anyhow).

Transit: O-train is already there (circled in blue). Baseline/Heron BRT will be there. Road access is incredible because it's at the junction of Riverside, Heron and Bronson. Excellent accessibility by numerous bike paths.

This site would be at the EXACT centre of the city, and it's adjacent to Carleton University which could be good for some sort of partnership. I can't think of a better location. Of course my little dream would be contingent on the Feds playing along so It'll never happen, but damn it would be cool.

Meh... as a fantasy plan it's neat, but it's the same kind of nowhere location as the one it's in now, except closer. No real city around, no way to realistically just get there on foot, nowhere walking distance to go before or after the game or concert... who cares about the geographic centre if it's still more like the moon?

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

Meh... as a fantasy plan it's neat, but it's the same kind of nowhere location as the one it's in now, except closer. No real city around, no way to realistically just get there on foot, nowhere walking distance to go before or after the game or concert... who cares about the geographic centre if it's still more like the moon?

Unless the ancient Greber Plan was finally thrown in the bin and these massive space wasting decentralized federal buildings full of asbestos were demolished (sparing any heritage buildings) and the land sold off for much needed intensification. This area could be the Bay/Bloor of Ottawa if that were to happen.

At the very core of our city we have absolutely NOTHING of value aside from the little Edward Drake building and a medium size office building (Canada Post) in a massive area, highlighted in red. Adjacent to it we have the RA Centre, which is long overdue for replacement or redevelopment, and a small outmoded mall that will inevitably be redeveloped, highlighted in Blue.

[IMG]Screenshot 2020-12-19 235226 by harley613, on Flickr[/IMG]

[ejm]

http://www.erickmcevoyfolio.com/gallery_-_watercolour.html

A potential Ottawa Stadium Site at Bayview Yards

[silvergate]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Unless the ancient Greber Plan was finally thrown in the bin and these massive space wasting decentralized federal buildings full of asbestos were demolished (sparing any heritage buildings) and the land sold off for much needed intensification. This area could be the Bay/Bloor of Ottawa if that were to happen.

At the very core of our city we have absolutely NOTHING of value aside from the little Edward Drake building and a medium size office building (Canada Post) in a massive area, highlighted in red. Adjacent to it we have the RA Centre, which is long overdue for replacement or redevelopment, and a small outmoded mall that will inevitably be redeveloped, highlighted in Blue.

[IMG]Screenshot 2020-12-19 235226 by harley613, on Flickr[/IMG]

I love this idea, that area around Riverside is just a colossal waste of space right now. There's definitely enough room to preserve the Rideau flood-plain and plop a dense district on top. Put the stadium halfway between Billings and Heron station and it'll be just like the Lebreton plan!

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by silvergate

I love this idea, that area around Riverside is just a colossal waste of space right now. There's definitely enough room to preserve the Rideau flood-plain and plop a dense district on top. Put the stadium halfway between Billings and Heron station and it'll be just like the Lebreton plan!

Now you are making me dream, but imagine the potential transit hub that could be integrated here. Baseline BRT, local bus station, Bank Street subway stop (if it follows the SE Transitway), and maybe even a VIA HFR rail station for the thousands coming in from Montreal and Toronto for a Sens game. All by placing the arena above the hill next to the Data Centre. And within easy walking distance of a re-imagined Billings Bridge Shopping Centre, already planned as a mixed use community.