Cobalt Luxury Residences On King | 97.5 & 97.5m | 2 x 30 fl | Complete

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

When you say "Calibre" what do you mean? I think they and the Platinum and the Marquee will transformc owntown because there will be thousands of new middle class people spending time around downtown. But the Cobalt is being done by a architect and developer that is know for meh work. KiWi is yet to be discussed what the quality will be, but we may have to wait and see what it looks like when done.

Probably something to do with the size & style of the new projects. Even if Cobalt, Kiwi, & 1 Jarvis don't look the best, you must admit they'll change King Willy for the better.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

When you say "Calibre" what do you mean? I think they and the Platinum and the Marquee will transformc owntown because there will be thousands of new middle class people spending time around downtown. But the Cobalt is being done by a architect and developer that is know for meh work. KiWi is yet to be discussed what the quality will be, but we may have to wait and see what it looks like when done.

LOL
"middle class" people downtown?

*Looks at the prices these are going for *

yeah those aren't middle class prices.. let's not fool ourselves - this isn't the 1920s.. in order to live downtown now you need $$$. Which isn't a bad thing but so far there aren't really that many places downtown (except maybe banks and architect firms) to support that kinda lifestyle - so these people will probably be toronto commuters.. and I mean that's not a bad thing - at least people will be buying stuff downtown, and you need the people before you have the businesses.

But let's not fool ourselves - the downtown cannot support middle class people with the jobs there and the rents being proposed there, not the average REAL middle class hamiltonian - maybe a middle class torontonian. I mean last i saw one of the places was proposing 2500 dollars a month for a place downtown - that's not middle class prices. It's bad enough the minimum now in most places for a 1 bedroom is 1000.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

LOL
"middle class" people downtown?

*Looks at the prices these are going for *

yeah those aren't middle class prices.. let's not fool ourselves - this isn't the 1920s.. in order to live downtown now you need $$$. Which isn't a bad thing but so far there aren't really that many places downtown (except maybe banks and architect firms) to support that kinda lifestyle - so these people will probably be toronto commuters.. and I mean that's not a bad thing - at least people will be buying stuff downtown, and you need the people before you have the businesses.

But let's not fool ourselves - the downtown cannot support middle class people with the jobs there and the rents being proposed there, not the average REAL middle class hamiltonian - maybe a middle class torontonian. I mean last i saw one of the places was proposing 2500 dollars a month for a place downtown - that's not middle class prices. It's bad enough the minimum now in most places for a 1 bedroom is 1000.

According to Maclean's: https://www.macleans.ca/economy/mone...-middle-class/

The middle 20% is earning around $72,000/year in Hamilton. A couple making the same income around $70,000 each can afford a $3,800 mortgage or rental payment each month at 33% of their gross income. Which amounts to around a $550,000-$600,000 home purchase.

I'll concede that most jobs available in Hamilton don't pay that well, but 3000 people moving downtown with the skill set to afford these places will surely attract employment as well.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

I'll concede that most jobs available in Hamilton don't pay that well, but 3000 people moving downtown with the skill set to afford these places will surely attract employment as well.

And I do believe that's the citys goal - if we build them, they will come - and then we can get the high quality companies to work for - I sincerely hope it works!

[TheHonestMaple]

When I say 'calibre', I mean developments with top notch amenities in desirable locations with decent building materials. I was basically getting at exactly what you said though, developments like these will attract higher earners that have actual money to spend on high end restaurants, cafes, bars and other cultural things we all want downtown. As much as I understand the want for 'affordable rentals' it's simply not what this city needs. We need high earners, that will attract better paying jobs. And I think developments like this one, and the other ones you listed will do just that.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple

When I say 'calibre', I mean developments with top notch amenities in desirable locations with decent building materials. I was basically getting at exactly what you said though, developments like these will attract higher earners that have actual money to spend on high end restaurants, cafes, bars and other cultural things we all want downtown. As much as I understand the want for 'affordable rentals' it's simply not what this city needs. We need high earners, that will attract better paying jobs. And I think developments like this one, and the other ones you listed will do just that.

I would love affordable units. But that's also not the responsibility of private developers. Affordable social housing is the responsibility of government, and government policy. I don't expect profit driven developers to make cheap housing out of the goodness of their heart. Also almost all old affordable units that exist today were sold as the "pinnacle of luxury" when built.

[Innsertnamehere]

Quite the contrary, apartments are increasingly the home of the middle class.

Median household income is likely about $80k in Hamilton (it was $70k in 2015, extrapolate inflation with a small amount of wage growth), which means that they can afford about $2,200 a month in housing costs. Which is more than what a typical 2 bed unit is renting for right now downtown from my understanding.

And median household income is including all households - including students earning $5k a year while in school, and retirees living off of CPP and OAS. The median income of working adults is higher.

The thing with Hamilton is that it historically has been much more of a working class town, and features a large amount of urban poverty. Those are the groups that are the most vulnerable, and the ones getting pushed out as middle class people, increasingly from the GTA, move in (I admit I am one of these such people). I do believe a lot of the people moving out here aren't commuting to Toronto though, they are finding employment more locally, whether in Hamilton or Halton. The handful of people I know who moved here from Toronto all switched to local employment, me included.

Hamilton is Gentrifying. That means all kinds of good things like building renovations, new construction, new restaurants, etc., as capital flows into the city, but it also means that many who live there today get pushed out by rising housing costs.

I'd say for a city it's size Hamilton has generally been doing an incredible job at constructing affordable housing. It has a good stock of non-profit housing providers in the city that actively pursue redevelopment opportunities, and is actually building a notable amount of new affordable housing units every year. Not a lot of other cities in the province can claim that.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple

When I say 'calibre', I mean developments with top notch amenities in desirable locations with decent building materials.

I agree with your assessment.

What makes this extra attractive is the location. It's right in the heard of downtown. Even though other builds are like a block or two away - which doesn't make much difference overall, there's something about having this right across Gore Park and tight up against other buildings/businesses, and across the street from the Connaught while also being along King William where there are some nice little restaurants in great building renovations. You're also along a major bus line. You get the best of all worlds.

The only problematic part of this location, and hopefully the city addresses this, is the highway running in front of it. If they city ever restricts that area only to pedestrians, it would be perfect.

[Chronamut]

They really ned to redevelop jackson square to be a place where all of these people can congregate - thousands of new people living around the gore is just going to be, a very crammed park area - I mean the thing that is nice about gore park is it's a victorian park - it's quiet and contemplative - while we have giant rooftop areas on top of gore that can be used for stuff that is just never used..

also would be curious to see how things like art crawl spill over with that many people in the downtown - it was huge already pre-pandemic.

Wonder if we'll ever see the giant parades of the early 1900s again along king st in the gore - that would be cool

I would just like to see the gore industry back to the level it was at in antiquity - people actually working downtown - not necessarily it just being full of bistros and whatnot but actual places to shop - I know that's difficult with malls nowadays but still, it would be nice- and get those damn cashmart places out of the gore - they can go other places but the gore should have.. higher calibre places imo. Like the old days.

raise the class of the business and you raise the class of the people imo.

And yeah as I said "middle class TORONTONIANS"

10 years ago a 2 bedroom was going for between 600-800 a month - look how much things have hyperinflated since - and the job wages haven't skyrocketed to match the cost of living locally. Not for the average person anyways. All those people who work in those trendy coffee places all these people downtown will frequent can't even afford to live downtown themselves. Most work multiple jobs to make ends meet. Or they are still in school paying off tuition or living with their parents..

Saying that though I really do want to see the high quality companies invest in downtown in all sorts of professions - hamilton was always a steel and manufacturing place, so it will be interesting to see how it reinvents itself employment wise over time. I remember one of the brownfields by the water was supposed to be a filming area, but I think they didn't want the cost of cleaning up the land, so I don't know what became of that..

as it stands downtown gore area atm is mostly banking and architectural firms - many buildings still stand empty - the right house still has many empty floors. So the buildings are there to be filled already.

[TheRitsman]

But that's the middle class income of Hamiltonians. The middle income Hamilton resident earns over $70,000/year.

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

10 years ago a 2 bedroom was going for between 600-800 a month - look how much things have hyperinflated since - and the job wages haven't skyrocketed to match the cost of living locally. Not for the average person anyways. All those people who work in those trendy coffee places all these people downtown will frequent can't even afford to live downtown themselves. Most work multiple jobs to make ends meet.

Look to historically low interest rates, not Torontonians for that. Cheap lending has led to high prices on condos/houses and that in turn has resulted in rent going up.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple

Look to historically low interest rates, not Torontonians for that. Cheap lending has led to high prices on condos/houses and that in turn has resulted in rent going up.

Housing is another issue entirely - sure places are going for a ton of money but new houses are also super expensive - there are many that can't afford to sell because they can't afford to buy a new place, with all the torontonians filling in and snatching the places up, people are being pushed out to more and more remote places. One could say that's just progress I suppose, and I suppose we had to make a choice.

Did we want to stay a crappy derelict city and have low prices, or gentrify and get more expensive?

And I am curious to know, is the average median middle class income in hamilton from companies actually IN hamilton, or just people who live IN hamilton, and work outside of it? And if it is the former what are the professions that make up this general demographic? I'd be very curious to know.

[johnnyhamont]

Taken today

[Chronamut]

so many cranes.. what a sight to behold!

[Berklon]

Build something in that parking lot and in a few years those 2 blocks on King William will look amazing.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Build something in that parking lot and in a few years those 2 blocks on King William will look amazing.

but not TOO big - something stepped up gradually to but up to the building beside it - kinda like the existing buildings were - nothing skyscrapery to take away from the lister block.

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

What that lot needs is a midrise with a rounded corner and stepped back enough from the street so that you can still see the Lister Block looking down James, and have plenty of room for dining tables. Core Urban really needs to get their hands on this lot, they're perhaps the only group who can't screw this up.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

but not TOO big - something stepped up gradually to but up to the building beside it - kinda like the existing buildings were - nothing skyscrapery to take away from the lister block.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. There's already the Student Residence building right there and another larger building in that spot would just dwarf and take away from the Lister.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by ShavedParmesanCheese

What that lot needs is a midrise with a rounded corner and stepped back enough from the street so that you can still see the Lister Block looking down James, and have plenty of room for dining tables. Core Urban really needs to get their hands on this lot, they're perhaps the only group who can't screw this up.

EXACTLY what i was thinking - or a 3 story front to corner it off and then farther out of the corner into the back where it joins the building next door have it step higher up - like an L within another L if looked at from the top - like the corner of a pyramid.

Originally Posted by Berklon

Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. There's already the Student Residence building right there and another larger building in that spot would just dwarf and take away from the Lister.

Exactly. This is a situation where taller isn't better - where smart design is important to stagger everything so the right amt of sun still filters in - you have all those patios for king william so you dont want to remove the sun element any more than the existing buildings already do.

It's one thing i kinda worry about with the cobalt one - how much sun is going to filter in for the patios of the restaurants across the street from it on king william? Will it just feel like a canyon? Probably not though with the east to west sun but still, should be interesting.

[lachlanholmes]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

When you say "Calibre" what do you mean? I think they and the Platinum and the Marquee will transformc owntown because there will be thousands of new middle class people spending time around downtown. But the Cobalt is being done by a architect and developer that is know for meh work. KiWi is yet to be discussed what the quality will be, but we may have to wait and see what it looks like when done.

Agree with you on this assessment...

The design firm in question seems largely incapable of attractive conceptual design let alone attractive completed buildings, so I'm not particularly looking forward to this development or the development at James and Jackson from a design/architecture point of view.

Here's a selection of G+C's work, for anyone interested...

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It will be fun to watch them rise, and nice to get another couple hundred people living in the core, but I really doubt that they're going to be that nice to look at when done.