Green Line LRT - $4.6 Billion Project

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by malcolmtucker

this government talks the language of local control, but doesn't walk the walk. Across government their actions are about centralizing control and reducing other voices and alternate centres of power.

100%

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

This government talks the language of local control, but doesn't walk the walk.

Local control requires local expertise and local government in most of the western world is a den of incompetence and corruption.

Local control worked fine when local government just wasn't expected to do much more than collect garbage and shoot stray dogs.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Local control requires local expertise and local government in most of the western world is a den of incompetence and corruption.

And isn't local control how the Green Line went from <=$5B to over $8B? Still, I think the UCP government would have been accommodating if the Green Line hadn't also ran into trouble with the original deep tunnel. Two giant mistakes makes it hard to trust.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by accord1999

And isn't local control how the Green Line went from <=$5B to over $8B? Still, I think the UCP government would have been accommodating if the Green Line hadn't also ran into trouble with the original deep tunnel. Two giant mistakes makes it hard to trust.

Of course it was local control doing that, but conservative ideology is that local decisions should be made locally. And I agree with that, there's no reason to believe that Alberta Transportation, a body that has only ever built roads, would do a better job of building a railway than Calgary would have.

This is Calgary's project and Calgary needs to see it through, or not. We have the option of voting them out if they haven't made progress by the next election. I don't think the UCP care about being the bad guys on this one, but they could have stayed out of it and the outcome would be little different.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Of course it was local control doing that, but conservative ideology is that local decisions should be made locally. And I agree with that, there's no reason to believe that Alberta Transportation, a body that has only ever built roads, would do a better job of building a railway than Calgary would have.

The decisions that have imperiled the Green Line would almost certainly not have been made by a transportation bureaucracy. Everything I have heard about the Green Line in the last ten years sounds more like a PowerPoint from a business improvement district than a mass transit plan.

It isn't wrong that improved mass transit will encourage gentrification, but merely gentrifying a couple blocks of Centre Street and the Beltline was never actually the intended goal of the NCLRT or SELRT. The irredeemable flaw of the Green Line is that actually reaching significant population centres has been sacrificed in favour of building a tunnel that has no other reason to exist.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Local control worked fine when local government just wasn't expected to do much more than collect garbage and shoot stray dogs.

Spit-take of the day!

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Local control requires local expertise and local government in most of the western world is a den of incompetence and corruption.

Local control worked fine when local government just wasn't expected to do much more than collect garbage and shoot stray dogs.

The principle of subsidiarity applies to every area where response to local conditions is important. Look to the sw ring road as one example - massive overbuilding because what is built isn't aligned with regional planning.



All of the problems with the green line have come from the political level. The federal government announcing funding before anything close to a back of the napkin analysis was done. The city iterating back up to the political level continuously instead of defining objectives concretely then going to planning. The province getting 99% there and then not signing a final agreement before the election, then the province rolling back since then. Council members shadow boxing about the project to raise their profiles. Grandees coming in with barely defrosted ideas that just FUD all over the project. Activists coming in with what they think is helping (north leg first!) when really it is just FUD from another direction.



It is really frustrating, because the project is a good project! But you need to have really followed the bouncing ball as the option funnel narrowed to conclude that these days given the amount of mis and dis information out there.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The principle of subsidiarity applies to every area where response to local conditions is important. Look to the sw ring road as one example - massive overbuilding because what is built isn't aligned with regional planning.

I'm afraid that subject remains off-limits for my commentary.

But how is your history of the relationship between the City of Calgary and Tsuut'ina? It was toxic as recently as ten years ago.

The problems that bedevil the Green Line aren't the fault of any other level of government. The present mayor, council and administration decided the Green Line should be first and foremost used as a means of gentrifying Centre Street and the Beltline at the expense of actually serving the suburbs. Actually delivering improved transit Centre Street and new alternatives to auto-dependent suburbs has disappeared as a priority, Centre Street could actually end up worse for everybody but won't Centre Street south of 16th Ave be cute with it's little tram and won't the Beltline look like a big boy city with it's super cool subway.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

All of the problems with the green line have come from the political level. The federal government announcing funding before anything close to a back of the napkin analysis was done.

IMO, all of these political problems would have been noise if the Green Line had come in at budget, or at the very least Beddington-Shepard. And regarding the napkin analysis, the City paid Steer Davis Gleave in 2014 to study NC and they provided a cost estimate of various options.



How did they get it so wrong? How did the cost of the at-grade Centre Street alignment in two years exceed the estimated cost of the tunneled alignment.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The principle of subsidiarity applies to every area where response to local conditions is important. Look to the sw ring road as one example - massive overbuilding because what is built isn't aligned with regional planning.



All of the problems with the green line have come from the political level. The federal government announcing funding before anything close to a back of the napkin analysis was done. The city iterating back up to the political level continuously instead of defining objectives concretely then going to planning. The province getting 99% there and then not signing a final agreement before the election, then the province rolling back since then. Council members shadow boxing about the project to raise their profiles. Grandees coming in with barely defrosted ideas that just FUD all over the project. Activists coming in with what they think is helping (north leg first!) when really it is just FUD from another direction.



It is really frustrating, because the project is a good project! But you need to have really followed the bouncing ball as the option funnel narrowed to conclude that these days given the amount of mis and dis information out there.

Is it a good project? I'm still begrudgingly of the opinion that it is better we build it than don't, but for $5B it doesn't give us very much of value. It essentially does nothing for the north, even if the 16 Ave station is built, and it doesn't serve the SE either. The majority of the area served is low density or industrial wasteland.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by accord1999

IMO, all of these political problems would have been noise if the Green Line had come in at budget, or at the very least Beddington-Shepard. And regarding the napkin analysis, the City paid Steer Davis Gleave in 2014 to study NC and they provided a cost estimate of various options.



How did they get it so wrong? How did the cost of the at-grade Centre Street alignment in two years exceed the estimated cost of the tunneled alignment.

Ouch was that north of 20th only?

Yeah. I’d bet that those numbers don’t include what is needed for a whole project, like rolling stock and a maintenance facility (transit city did that too). I’d also bet it didn’t include any associated work: replacing and upgrading the street scape (scope creep) retaining turning movements at intersections (land acquisition). I also bet utility relocation was vastly underestimated (required to move from a technical standpoint versus a very good idea to move from a need to access it at some point to fix it). Plus every tunnel to dip under major intersections. I’d also take a gander that the estimates included direct civil works only not associated works (building power substations but including cost to get power to them for example) and not including any land acquisition costs.

So yeah, asking the wrong questions, getting wrong results? City council asked to price out the most bare bones solutions possible, those estimates were likely low, and then the politicians added a whole lot of requirements back in with only a slight knowledge of the cost of each move instead of a wholistic view of all the moves until much later.

Like in downtown where they flirted with 12th Ave. It cannot go on 12th but the political level is still trying. 12th has too many utilities under it.

Like downtown how they somehow keep ending up with an extra station underground with little concern for the cost.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Is it a good project? I'm still begrudgingly of the opinion that it is better we build it than don't, but for $5B it doesn't give us very much of value. It essentially does nothing for the north, even if the 16 Ave station is built, and it doesn't serve the SE either. The majority of the area served is low density or industrial wasteland.

They were talking about this project this afternoon on QR. A retired senior transportation planner called in and said he and many other past transportation planners have huge issues with this project. He said the biggest problem is going up Center Street. The guy basically said they make it look good in the drawings but in reality it will be a disaster. He also said the line's biggest draws will be the deep south and especially the far north but that area will be the last to be reached. Going back to Center Street, he said the City spends hundreds of millions of dollars grade separating roads and transit lines in other locations so it makes no sense they want to do the exact opposite now. Other than Druh and her gang does anyone else want this line going down the middle of Center Street? I have my doubts that the current transportation planners want that.

This tweet from Ric McIver today is interesting.

While I appreciate the kind words, our staff have been working close with @cityofcalgary staff, who've been been very cooperative with us.

We hope to work with them to fix the Green Line to deliver good value and functional transit project for Calgarians. #yyc #YYCcc

Source: https://twitter.com/RicMcIver/status/1339685246560825348

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Other than Druh and her gang does anyone else want this line going down the middle of Center Street? I have my doubts that the current transportation planners want that.

Having attended the majority of the Green Line engagement sessions for the communities along Centre St I can tell you unequivocally that yes, almost everyone living between Beddington Trail and 16th Ave wants the train down the middle of Centre St.

The reason? Centre St is 4 lanes of constant traffic in the morning and evening rush hours and, as one resident put it, that's "soul crushing" to the communities there. The residents would much rather deal with two sets of tracks and trains passing through every 5 to 10 minutes than 4 lanes of non stop traffic 6 hours a day.

In my experience the only people who were strongly opposed to the train running up the middle of Centre St weren't the ones living in the adjacent communities. Instead they were people who use Centre St for their driving commute and were pissed their commute might be impacted with zero thought given to the impact their commutes have on the tens of thousands of residents who live in the communities along Centre St

The same point kept being made over and over at the open houses. It was essentially 'we're sick of our communities only being seen as places Calgarians drive through and instead they should be places Calgarians want to come to'. One of the best ways to accomplish this is by removing 2 lanes of traffic off of Centre St to reduce traffic and build a train that can increase the number of people moving through the corridor at the same time.

[jawagord]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

The decisions that have imperiled the Green Line would almost certainly not have been made by a transportation bureaucracy. Everything I have heard about the Green Line in the last ten years sounds more like a PowerPoint from a business improvement district than a mass transit plan.

It isn't wrong that improved mass transit will encourage gentrification, but merely gentrifying a couple blocks of Centre Street and the Beltline was never actually the intended goal of the NCLRT or SELRT. The irredeemable flaw of the Green Line is that actually reaching significant population centres has been sacrificed in favour of building a tunnel that has no other reason to exist.

It's for sure City Hall politicians and not the transit planners that have made this mess. When the top manager quits as happened 2 years ago (Herald story still good for a laugh), it's because of interference from above, not from below. The Green Line political masters (Nenshi and cohorts) have not listened to the professionals, they simply insist on continuing on the same path regardless of the cost increases, utilizing the strategy of cutting back track length and demanding more money to preserve the "tunnel". Ric McIvor (aka Dr. No) well understands the Green Line problems and obviously doesn't agree with councils plan to fast-track the south portion while figuring out the downtown portion.

The head of the city’s $4.6-billion Green Line project — a man city councillors were warned could “ruffle a few feathers” when he took over the role in the spring — has left the job, Postmedia has learned.

Seven months after being hired by the city, Paul Giannelia has left his post as director of the massive LRT construction project. The city’s general manager of transportation, Michael Thompson, has taken over the role on an interim basis.

City staff have openly and privately discussed Giannelia’s difficulties acclimating to the municipal workplace after years in the private sector overseeing the successful construction of megaprojects including Calgary’s Olympic Oval and the Confederation Bridge, linking P.E.I. and New Brunswick.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-new...20hired,role%20on%20an%20interim%20basis.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Other than Druh and her gang does anyone else want this line going down the middle of Center Street? I have my doubts that the current transportation planners want that.

I think there is definitely a constituency for it within the city administration, but I'm skeptical that City Council is really all-in on it because if a Centre Street tram was really what they wanted they would have done it by now.

Originally Posted by outoftheice

Having attended the majority of the Green Line engagement sessions for the communities along Centre St I can tell you unequivocally that yes, almost everyone living between Beddington Trail and 16th Ave wants the train down the middle of Centre St.

My experience has been ordinary citizens who proactively engage in consultations tend to be a little... eccentric.

[jawagord]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

Having attended the majority of the Green Line engagement sessions for the communities along Centre St I can tell you unequivocally that yes, almost everyone living between Beddington Trail and 16th Ave wants the train down the middle of Centre St.

The reason? Centre St is 4 lanes of constant traffic in the morning and evening rush hours and, as one resident put it, that's "soul crushing" to the communities there. The residents would much rather deal with two sets of tracks and trains passing through every 5 to 10 minutes than 4 lanes of non stop traffic 6 hours a day.

In my experience the only people who were strongly opposed to the train running up the middle of Centre St weren't the ones living in the adjacent communities. Instead they were people who use Centre St for their driving commute and were pissed their commute might be impacted with zero thought given to the impact their commutes have on the tens of thousands of residents who live in the communities along Centre St

The same point kept being made over and over at the open houses. It was essentially 'we're sick of our communities only being seen as places Calgarians drive through and instead they should be places Calgarians want to come to'. One of the best ways to accomplish this is by removing 2 lanes of traffic off of Centre St to reduce traffic and build a train that can increase the number of people moving through the corridor at the same time.

The caller was speaking specifically about the section from the bow river to 16th Ave, which the city changed this year to at grade from underground (were any community meetings held after that change?). He suggests it should be underground until perhaps 24th Ave and then at grade on Centre Street out to Beddington.

[outoftheice]

The Crescent Heights Community Association and the Crescent Heights BIA both publicly endorsed the at grade on Centre up to 16th Ave option at Council in June. Do they represent everyone? No, but if there was complete opposition to this by people living in these communities chances are the CA would have hedged its bet and not publicly endorsed the option. Same with the BIA.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

Having attended the majority of the Green Line engagement sessions for the communities along Centre St I can tell you unequivocally that yes, almost everyone living between Beddington Trail and 16th Ave wants the train down the middle of Centre St.

The reason? Centre St is 4 lanes of constant traffic in the morning and evening rush hours and, as one resident put it, that's "soul crushing" to the communities there. The residents would much rather deal with two sets of tracks and trains passing through every 5 to 10 minutes than 4 lanes of non stop traffic 6 hours a day.

In my experience the only people who were strongly opposed to the train running up the middle of Centre St weren't the ones living in the adjacent communities. Instead they were people who use Centre St for their driving commute and were pissed their commute might be impacted with zero thought given to the impact their commutes have on the tens of thousands of residents who live in the communities along Centre St

The same point kept being made over and over at the open houses. It was essentially 'we're sick of our communities only being seen as places Calgarians drive through and instead they should be places Calgarians want to come to'. One of the best ways to accomplish this is by removing 2 lanes of traffic off of Centre St to reduce traffic and build a train that can increase the number of people moving through the corridor at the same time.

If the development of infrastructure in Calgary over the last few years has taught us anything, it's that this "infrastructure designed by community engagement" is a total fail and the local residents are the absolute last people that should be listened to when designing a project (remember Mercedes man?). NIMBYs of all forms are the scourge of modern societies and need to be shut out, not encouraged.

I'm surprised even the NIMBYs think a surface LRT will help them though. Centre St is crap, no question, but jamming an LRT in the middle will make it worse, not better, creating a barrier down the middle, reducing access and probably increasing congestion, especially as the buses will remain. The best solution would be to have an underground route AND making Centre St less auto centric - they're not mutually exclusive.

As for making the area a destination? Come on, even they can't be as delusional as to believe that would happen, or even desire it. It has never worked like that in Calgary - TOD has failed and projects like 16 Ave fail to encourage development. There's no reason to think a tram on Centre would succeed where all other attempts have failed. And even if the area did become a destination, it will be the current residents' children's children who will benefit, if they stay living in the same area, so it's pointless factoring that into current infrastructure planning.

It's all a moot point anyway though - we can all see the obvious that there will be no LRT north of 16th and probably the river for decades. We are discussing an imaginary project.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Ouch was that north of 20th only?

Yes, I went back to that T&T meeting and saw in the report that they also provided an estimate of the river crossing costs.

Yeah. I’d bet that those numbers don’t include what is needed for a whole project,

Suprisingly, as part of the report they actually gave a remarkably itemized and precise (if perhaps not accurate) estimate of construction costs. Perhaps you can give your opinion on whether they were realistic or missing anything. Here's one page of it:



app_d: detailed analysis of the various options for the NC segment north of 24th Av:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LUVNeNkL6e1PFPk_uW1Te_5bn06Yhpl-/view?usp=sharing

app_g: the itemized costs of construction
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n5FeBmLhrgPBteBNS5z15r3Bz5WbZaCu/view?usp=sharing

[superelevation]

Its amazing to see the contrast between what the UCP is doing in AB and what the CAQ are doing in Quebec - where a 10 Billion dollar 30 km light metro was just announced.