The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by esquire

That's probably one of the nicest bus stations I've ever seen. Up until recently most Canadian bus stations (at least the ones I've seen) looked pretty cramped, drab and grimy, but the new crop is starting to look a bit nicer. I guess in the GTA there's enough bus ridership to justify that level of investment...

It’s for the GO Bus and its middle class commuters, however many of them are left. The other bus riders are still at the drab and grimy bus station, as far as I know.

[isotack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

It’s for the GO Bus and its middle class commuters, however many of them are left. The other bus riders are still at the drab and grimy bus station, as far as I know.

Wow thanks for that...I had no idea it was a class thing. Back to cow farts and the environment I guess.

[ue]

I don't know if here or the Ottawa sub is the best place for this question, but I was looking at O-Train maps and future plans, and was curious about something. I understand why the Trillium line was chosen where it was, but really, it hits no major nodes beyond Carleton (though the Dows Lake area is now developing decently). Bank Street is a more natural and obvious choice that would bring far more ridership. Is there any sort of plan to have an LRT (or perhaps a streetcar) run down it, perhaps to turn down Sunnyside Ave to meet with Carleton U?

Overall Ottawa's future transit plans are fairly solid, even arguably more so than some other cities, but this, to me, is a glaring oversight. Perhaps also a line that splits off from the Confederation Line and goes down Montreal Rd through Vanier before meeting back up with it in Gloucester and continuing on to Orleans. Another line could go down Somerset from Bayview to uOttawa. Or perhaps down Carling/Glebe across the canal to St Paul University then up to uOttawa. But that's less important than a Bank St line that connects Centretown and Glebe to Downtown and Carleton. That would have the most bang-for-buck in terms of usefulness and increasing ridership, I'd assume.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by ue

I don't know if here or the Ottawa sub is the best place for this question, but I was looking at O-Train maps and future plans, and was curious about something. I understand why the Trillium line was chosen where it was, but really, it hits no major nodes beyond Carleton (though the Dows Lake area is now developing decently). Bank Street is a more natural and obvious choice that would bring far more ridership. Is there any sort of plan to have an LRT (or perhaps a streetcar) run down it, perhaps to turn down Sunnyside Ave to meet with Carleton U?

Overall Ottawa's future transit plans are fairly solid, even arguably more so than some other cities, but this, to me, is a glaring oversight. Perhaps also a line that splits off from the Confederation Line and goes down Montreal Rd through Vanier before meeting back up with it in Gloucester and continuing on to Orleans. Another line could go down Somerset from Bayview to uOttawa. Or perhaps down Carling/Glebe across the canal to St Paul University then up to uOttawa. But that's less important than a Bank St line that connects Centretown and Glebe to Downtown and Carleton. That would have the most bang-for-buck in terms of usefulness and increasing ridership, I'd assume.

The City of Ottawa's near total focus is on suburban expansion of the O-Train called Stage 3. The City is requesting nearly $5B to extend the Confederation Line to Kanata and Barrhaven.

The only semi-urban "rapid" transit plan is for the $100+ east-west Baseline BRT (median BRT, not fully grade separated like the original Transitway segments) between Bayshore (Line 1) and Heron (S/E Transitway), serving Algonquin (Line 1) and Mooney's Bay (Line 2) in between. The City is hoping for the Federal Government to fund it through a relatively low cost shovel ready transit stimulus package.

The City will also be implementing basic bus lanes within the next 2 years down Carling between Lincoln Fields (Line 1) and Bronson, serving Dow's Lake (Line 2) on its way.

Stage 3, the Baseline BRT and Carling bus lanes will tie-up all transit funding for 15-20 years easily.

The City priority after those projects will probably be the Cumberland Transitway, an east-west link a few kilometers south of the Orléans Stage 2 O-Train extension. I expect that project to be promoted to rail and called Stage 4.

The only two other rail related plans are a Carling streetcar (similar to Eglinton Crosstown's surface sections) and possibly extending Line 2 to Gatineau via the Prince of Wales Bridge (what happens after it crosses has never been discussed). I don't see any of these happening for at least 30.

Bank, Rideau and Montreal are designated "Transit Priority" in the City's TMP, but that's worthless. In fact, the already chronically unreliable transit on Montreal Road in Vanier will only get worse with the street rebuild that sees a lane removed, leaving only three lanes. I don't expect anything to happen with these corridors for 50+ years, if ever despite being the densest corridors in the City. Plenty of fantasy discussion on the Ottawa forum however.

Here's the current "Ultimate" Transportation Master Plan. The Kanata extension (red line on the left) would actually go two stations further south to Hazeldean based on the most recent plans.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

I don't know if here or the Ottawa sub is the best place for this question, but I was looking at O-Train maps and future plans, and was curious about something. I understand why the Trillium line was chosen where it was, but really, it hits no major nodes beyond Carleton (though the Dows Lake area is now developing decently). Bank Street is a more natural and obvious choice that would bring far more ridership. Is there any sort of plan to have an LRT (or perhaps a streetcar) run down it, perhaps to turn down Sunnyside Ave to meet with Carleton U?

Overall Ottawa's future transit plans are fairly solid, even arguably more so than some other cities, but this, to me, is a glaring oversight. Perhaps also a line that splits off from the Confederation Line and goes down Montreal Rd through Vanier before meeting back up with it in Gloucester and continuing on to Orleans. Another line could go down Somerset from Bayview to uOttawa. Or perhaps down Carling/Glebe across the canal to St Paul University then up to uOttawa. But that's less important than a Bank St line that connects Centretown and Glebe to Downtown and Carleton. That would have the most bang-for-buck in terms of usefulness and increasing ridership, I'd assume.

No, there isn't anything planned for the Bank St. or the Rideau St. East-Montreal Rd. (Vanier) corridors.

As you can see on this map of the "end-state" once Ottawa is done everything that is planned at this point:

https://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents/files/documents/tmp_map_3_en.pdf

Carling Avenue is scheduled to have an E-W tram-type service at some point in the future, but that is west of the point where the N-S Trillium line meets up with Carling. So west of Bronson Ave. and actually quite some distance west of Bank St. as well.

[davidivivid]

Quebec City released its design vision of the tram. Very Tron...
















https://www.reseaustructurant.info/actua...RIGK8LDVMIVpeNVorX5N-vW3bLN5G6xUNrU0VcAA

[hipster duck]

^Sexy. Who is the preferred manufacturer of those trams? I know you can customize the exterior look of an existing LRV, but I don't know if you can specify the design first and then ask manufacturers to match the exterior look.

[esquire]

That is one sexxxxxci piece of transit.

[hipster duck]

In news of another city thinking bigger than its size, Kitchener just released renderings of their preferred "Central Station" concept.

This would be the city's main intermodal transit terminal, servicing city buses but also their LRT, GO trains to Toronto and VIA. Not sure about intercity buses, but these are mostly run by GO now, anyway, so they'd probably be included.

Source

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

^Sexy. Who is the preferred manufacturer of those trams? I know you can customize the exterior look of an existing LRV, but I don't know if you can specify the design first and then ask manufacturers to match the exterior look.

Looks like a Citidas 305 from the door arrangement.

And of course you can. When the bids come back and have the off the shelf ends at 80% of the cost though, you might want to reconsider though. Also need to consider that as the order has more vehicles, the price gap would get smaller and eventually nearly disappear.


If you go through the gallery on the wiki article, there are plenty of end options. Seems to be a Alstom point of differentiation.

[davidivivid]

As of now, there are three consortiums vying for the contract. We know Bombardier is part of the first and Siemens of the second. We don't know yet the manufacturer for the third consortium.

[esquire]

That Kitchener proposal is amazing. I didn't think I'd see the day where Canada would get modern, Euro-level transportation infrastructure outside of Toronto and Montrreal.

[J.OT13]

Those are some modern trams. Quite a contrast to the old Cité.

Kitchener's Central Station is impressive. Someone mentioned on another thread that Ottawa's VIA Station was the last "Grand Station" built in Canada. This could be the first in 55+ years.

[JHikka]

Last time I took VIA to Kitchener I was let off on some tiny platform on the side of a road outside of downtown. That Central Station would be a tenfold improvement, especially if it's intermodal for GO, VIA, and LRT.

[ue]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The City of Ottawa's near total focus is on suburban expansion of the O-Train called Stage 3. The City is requesting nearly $5B to extend the Confederation Line to Kanata and Barrhaven.

The only semi-urban "rapid" transit plan is for the $100+ east-west Baseline BRT (median BRT, not fully grade separated like the original Transitway segments) between Bayshore (Line 1) and Heron (S/E Transitway), serving Algonquin (Line 1) and Mooney's Bay (Line 2) in between. The City is hoping for the Federal Government to fund it through a relatively low cost shovel ready transit stimulus package.

The City will also be implementing basic bus lanes within the next 2 years down Carling between Lincoln Fields (Line 1) and Bronson, serving Dow's Lake (Line 2) on its way.

Stage 3, the Baseline BRT and Carling bus lanes will tie-up all transit funding for 15-20 years easily.

The City priority after those projects will probably be the Cumberland Transitway, an east-west link a few kilometers south of the Orléans Stage 2 O-Train extension. I expect that project to be promoted to rail and called Stage 4.

The only two other rail related plans are a Carling streetcar (similar to Eglinton Crosstown's surface sections) and possibly extending Line 2 to Gatineau via the Prince of Wales Bridge (what happens after it crosses has never been discussed). I don't see any of these happening for at least 30.

Bank, Rideau and Montreal are designated "Transit Priority" in the City's TMP, but that's worthless. In fact, the already chronically unreliable transit on Montreal Road in Vanier will only get worse with the street rebuild that sees a lane removed, leaving only three lanes. I don't expect anything to happen with these corridors for 50+ years, if ever despite being the densest corridors in the City. Plenty of fantasy discussion on the Ottawa forum however.

Here's the current "Ultimate" Transportation Master Plan. The Kanata extension (red line on the left) would actually go two stations further south to Hazeldean based on the most recent plans.

Originally Posted by Acajack

No, there isn't anything planned for the Bank St. or the Rideau St. East-Montreal Rd. (Vanier) corridors.

As you can see on this map of the "end-state" once Ottawa is done everything that is planned at this point:

https://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents/files/documents/tmp_map_3_en.pdf

Carling Avenue is scheduled to have an E-W tram-type service at some point in the future, but that is west of the point where the N-S Trillium line meets up with Carling. So west of Bronson Ave. and actually quite some distance west of Bank St. as well.

Thanks for sharing both of you. Wow... that really sucks. The current build of the O-Train network is still something that could easily go in any way with future expansion as it's still only getting started.

Although I do believe everyone should have access to good transit, it frustrates me greatly how much governments prioritize extending downtown-terminating rail lines further into sprawling neighbourhoods. It makes rapid transit into a quasi commuter rail as these neighbourhoods are not built for walkability, daily transit usage (beyond commuting). Dense corridors where driving and parking are already less convenient, like the Bank St and Rideau E-Montreal Rd corridors, are a low-hanging fruit to get better transit to where people are already using it and boosting rapid transit ridership. Not to mention these corridors still extend into suburbia and could do the same things that the plans want. So it's a win-win.

To me, transit agencies and governments should be working from the centre out. Rather than starting by chasing suburban commuters, building a core network in central areas that are well-suited to transit should be key in boosting usability and ridership, and from there expand outward. But that's not really what happens. Even in our big cities. Like, how the DRL has been needed for decades in Toronto, but instead of building a subway down Queen or whatever, they've continued extending lines into places like Vaughan. Only now is the Ontario Line being taken seriously (and also the Eglinton line). Or Montreal, where the much heralded REM is basically just an airport connector and a bunch of suburban lines, while the Pink Line, or something that goes down St-Laurent or Parc through the western Plateau and to the Garment District (there's even a ROW already for the northern part of this) is de-prioritized. Or Vancouver getting Coquitlam-bound extensions when the 99 B-Line already has 200,000 riders and could very much use a Skytrain-level service is only now going forward. And so on.

It's short-sighted and dumb to give better transit to people that aren't even going to use transit to the same extent as urban dwellers. If you look at some of the best rail transit systems in the world, like London, Paris, Berlin, Moscow, Seoul, Tokyo, etc they aren't a bunch of lines funneling into a core from the far reaches of suburbia (which I think Chicago best exemplifies), they're winding lines that go all over the central areas, efficiently connecting areas with high transit usage. Anyways, that's my rant lol.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by ue

Thanks for sharing both of you. Wow... that really sucks. The current build of the O-Train network is still something that could easily go in any way with future expansion as it's still only getting started.

Although I do believe everyone should have access to good transit, it frustrates me greatly how much governments prioritize extending downtown-terminating rail lines further into sprawling neighbourhoods. It makes rapid transit into a quasi commuter rail as these neighbourhoods are not built for walkability, daily transit usage (beyond commuting). Dense corridors where driving and parking are already less convenient, like the Bank St and Rideau E-Montreal Rd corridors, are a low-hanging fruit to get better transit to where people are already using it and boosting rapid transit ridership. Not to mention these corridors still extend into suburbia and could do the same things that the plans want. So it's a win-win.

To me, transit agencies and governments should be working from the centre out. Rather than starting by chasing suburban commuters, building a core network in central areas that are well-suited to transit should be key in boosting usability and ridership, and from there expand outward. But that's not really what happens. Even in our big cities. Like, how the DRL has been needed for decades in Toronto, but instead of building a subway down Queen or whatever, they've continued extending lines into places like Vaughan. Only now is the Ontario Line being taken seriously (and also the Eglinton line). Or Montreal, where the much heralded REM is basically just an airport connector and a bunch of suburban lines, while the Pink Line, or something that goes down St-Laurent or Parc through the western Plateau and to the Garment District (there's even a ROW already for the northern part of this) is de-prioritized. Or Vancouver getting Coquitlam-bound extensions when the 99 B-Line already has 200,000 riders and could very much use a Skytrain-level service is only now going forward. And so on.

It's short-sighted and dumb to give better transit to people that aren't even going to use transit to the same extent as urban dwellers. If you look at some of the best rail transit systems in the world, like London, Paris, Berlin, Moscow, Seoul, Tokyo, etc they aren't a bunch of lines funneling into a core from the far reaches of suburbia (which I think Chicago best exemplifies), they're winding lines that go all over the central areas, efficiently connecting areas with high transit usage. Anyways, that's my rant lol.

Before Covid, in Montréal, about 50% downtown workers were transiting by public transport or bike or on foot. The workers who live within 10km from downtown Mtl are already using public transport. The biggest gain (%) in public transport will come from those who live between 10 and 30 km from the city center, the reason the REM was created.

[ue]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

Before Covid, in Montréal, about 50% downtown workers were transiting by public transport or bike or on foot. The workers who live within 10km from downtown Mtl are already using public transport. The biggest gain (%) in public transport will come from those who live between 10 and 30 km from the city center, the reason the REM va created.

Yes, but my point is giving people who are already using transit better transit just makes sense. Chasing suburban commuters who will only use it to commute downtown and back, then drive around Laval or Brossard, is only artificially inflating transit numbers via commuters. Providing the best service to areas where folks are already not driving and working outwards from there (and perhaps retrofitting suburbia to be more conducive to not driving, even though that is expensive) makes more sense to me.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by ue

Yes, but my point is giving people who are already using transit better transit just makes sense. Chasing suburban commuters who will only use it to commute downtown and back, then drive around Laval or Brossard, is only artificially inflating transit numbers via commuters. Providing the best service to areas where folks are already not driving and working outwards from there (and perhaps retrofitting suburbia to be more conducive to not driving, even though that is expensive) makes more sense to me.

I would say, in Canada, all public transport projects are ''climate change, greenhouse gas emission, pollution'' based. Yes we could give better transit to areas already using transit, but that would not significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions caused by cars from the suburbs.

[ue]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

I would say, in Canada, all public transport projects are ''climate change, greenhouse gas emission, pollution'' based. Yes we could give better transit to areas already using transit, but that would not significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions caused by cars from the suburbs.

Nor would transit in suburbia that brings people downtown and nothing else. It'd have a major impact on commuting and for sure that can reduce GHGs, but if those same people are still driving around everywhere once off work (including into the city on weekends for leisure), then it's not a huge win. Really, what needs to be done is retrofitting existing suburbia and halting the approval of sprawling, car-centric suburban designs, so that we can have suburban communities that are much better and receptive to walkability, biking, transit, complete streets, density, mixed-use development, etc.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by ue

Nor would transit in suburbia that brings people downtown and nothing else. It'd have a major impact on commuting and for sure that can reduce GHGs, but if those same people are still driving around everywhere once off work (including into the city on weekends for leisure), then it's not a huge win. Really, what needs to be done is retrofitting existing suburbia and halting the approval of sprawling, car-centric suburban designs, so that we can have suburban communities that are much better and receptive to walkability, biking, transit, complete streets, density, mixed-use development, etc.

of course, what we have here in Canada is a mentality where people move from high density areas when they are in their 20's, to much lower density areas when they reach their 30's and 40's. Even if you give them free transit, they want autonomy, tranquility and a backyard. They want SFH's, that is exactly what we see with the new WFH movement. Montréal will sprawl even more from now on. People are willing to drive 100-150 km (one way) if they only have to go to the office once or twice a week.