Great Canadian Skyline Thread II

[ue]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

I would argue that in the case of Montreal, while it's true that the city doesn't have soaring art-deco skyscrapers, it's pre-war bones are pretty up there with the likes of Boston or Philadelphia. While the pre-war commercial buildings in Montreal are less impressive than they are in these other cities (Philadelphia is particularly spectacular in that respect), the "grandiosity" of Montreal lies in its churches and other religious institutions; that is where the efforts went in terms of ambitious, sometimes over-the-top constructions.

For exemple, just look at the old Dawson college (first picture) which used to be the Mother House Congregation of Notre Dame, a convent! Just a few blocks away, there is the Grand Séminaire (second picture), and also a few blocks away, you have the Grey Nuns convent (third picture, now own by Concordia University). These buildings are the palaces of Montreal, and they are numerous in the cities, especially downtown.

I think it's very telling that in the US, the grand buildings are mostly commercial and finance, while in Montreal they are mostly religious. Here, we didn't build that many skyscrapers, but a lot of domes and bell towers.


https://www.instagram.com/p/CHt0ewGHmhO/


https://www.instagram.com/p/CHt3wwwnLOx/


Source

I mean, I did say Montreal (and Quebec City) are an exception to this in that very quote. Montreal has some of the best pre-war bones in the country and it has some very pleasing Art Deco, though it of course isn’t as extensive as the American peaks of Art Deco (New York, Chicago, Detroit). Even Downtown LA I’d argue has more pre-war Art Deco skyscrapers of note.

But that is an interesting observation about how the grandest old buildings in Montreal are usuallyreligious (or sometimes institutional, like the City Hall, I’d argue) as opposed to commercial. Still, beautiful buildings like Sun Life Building do exist in Montreal.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

That’s exactly the sort of thinking that resulted in dreadful decimated downtown like Tulsa and so many other american cities. To praise surface parking lots for their so call convenience is beyond comprehensible to me.

To be fair, though, that's how most Americans like their cities. The dream involves garage door openers, not elevators and mixed-use. I assume you're aware of this, but probably 97% of Americans are not wishing that they could live in a place like the Plateau.

You drive your SUV/pickup from your double-garage to work, the supermarket, the big box stores and the game, and you expect ample parking everywhere. You fulfill any desire you might have to be a pedestrian on a busy street by flying to New York once or twice in your life, and you don't give a crap about walkable commercial streets in Tulsa because you know it could never hold a candle to the real deal you saw in Manhattan.

If you were doing a National Geographic piece for aliens, a nifty turn of phrase might be: "In America, busy pedestrian experiences are not quotidian, but are reserved for vacations at theme parks: Disneyland, Las Vegas, Times Square."

Heh heh...

[someone123]

Originally Posted by rousseau

You drive your SUV/pickup from your double-garage to work, the supermarket, the big box stores and the game, and you expect ample parking everywhere. You fulfill any desire you might have to be a pedestrian on a busy street by flying to New York once or twice in your life, and you don't give a crap about walkable commercial streets in Tulsa because you know it could never hold a candle to the real deal you saw in Manhattan.

In university the American students were more likely to own a car or even take the bus short distances. And a lot more working poor Americans seem to struggle to maintain their vehicles while in Canada that demographic tends not to bother. Partly the transit tends to be better in Canada but I think there is a cultural difference too. There is a pervasive assumption in the US that everyone has a car and uses it as their primary mode of transportation, while transit is often thought of as either something for poor people or some kind of political statement rather than something you might choose to use over a car.

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by someone123

In university the American students were more likely to own a car or even take the bus short distances. And a lot more working poor Americans seem to struggle to maintain their vehicles while in Canada that demographic tends not to bother. Partly the transit tends to be better in Canada but I think there is a cultural difference too. There is a pervasive assumption in the US that everyone has a car and uses it as their primary mode of transportation, while transit is often thought of as either something for poor people or some kind of political statement rather than something you might choose to use over a car.

I just got an ad for a US-based charity using an example of a person in trouble that needs to make a decision based on whether to pay rent, fix his car (in order to go to work), or buy food.

I thought it was weird that in any other country that person would have dumped his car long ago or wouldn't even have been able to afford one in the first place.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by rousseau

To be fair, though, that's how most Americans like their cities. The dream involves garage door openers, not elevators and mixed-use. I assume you're aware of this, but probably 97% of Americans are not wishing that they could live in a place like the Plateau.

You drive your SUV/pickup from your double-garage to work, the supermarket, the big box stores and the game, and you expect ample parking everywhere. You fulfill any desire you might have to be a pedestrian on a busy street by flying to New York once or twice in your life, and you don't give a crap about walkable commercial streets in Tulsa because you know it could never hold a candle to the real deal you saw in Manhattan.

If you were doing a National Geographic piece for aliens, a nifty turn of phrase might be: "In America, busy pedestrian experiences are not quotidian, but are reserved for vacations at theme parks: Disneyland, Las Vegas, Times Square."

Heh heh...

It's true. I think many upwardly mobile Americans have a fascination with urban life during college and into their early/mid 20s before moving out to suburbia, having checked off the box of experiencing the highs and lows of "the city." Makes for good dinner conversation.

I think, to a certain extent, this correlates with Americans' general desire to live in warmer weather, also largely a matter of convenience and privilege, which continues to fuel an exodus out of the more urban northeast and midwest (aka the frostbelt) and into the sunbelt.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Zeej

It's true. I think many upwardly mobile Americans have a fascination with urban life during college and into their early/mid 20s before moving out to suburbia, having checked off the box of experiencing the highs and lows of "the city." Makes for good dinner conversation.

I wonder if the stratification of American cities is a self-perpetuating phenomenon. Many cities are highly specialized and the neighbourhoods are even more so. You can move to a place when you're 23 that is perfectly suited to 23 year olds but then as you get older it will cease to be tailored to your particular desires.

Meanwhile in Canada there are a lot more generic middle class neighbourhoods that are not particularly differentiated one way or the other.

Here in metro Vancouver the suburban options are pretty underwhelming. They are relatively expensive and often don't even give you the space and privacy most North Americans would associate with suburbia. There is a huge price penalty for going from multi unit to single unit, and even places like Chilliwack or Squamish aren't all that affordable (despite lackluster local jobs and amenities), so it feels like you don't get much trading your condo for suburbia.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by rousseau

To be fair, though, that's how most Americans like their cities. The dream involves garage door openers, not elevators and mixed-use. I assume you're aware of this, but probably 97% of Americans are not wishing that they could live in a place like the Plateau.

You drive your SUV/pickup from your double-garage to work, the supermarket, the big box stores and the game, and you expect ample parking everywhere. You fulfill any desire you might have to be a pedestrian on a busy street by flying to New York once or twice in your life, and you don't give a crap about walkable commercial streets in Tulsa because you know it could never hold a candle to the real deal you saw in Manhattan.

If you were doing a National Geographic piece for aliens, a nifty turn of phrase might be: "In America, busy pedestrian experiences are not quotidian, but are reserved for vacations at theme parks: Disneyland, Las Vegas, Times Square."

Heh heh...

very true. And our permissive infrastructure planning has enabled this sort of thinking to become the norm. It is sort of crazy that we have created a world where many people think they are entitled to driving their 3000kg pickup truck anywhere they want, anytime they want, at a very low cost (except, of course, to our urban fabric and to the environment). No wonder half the population is fat.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by someone123

I wonder if the stratification of American cities is a self-perpetuating phenomenon. Many cities are highly specialized and the neighbourhoods are even more so. You can move to a place when you're 23 that is perfectly suited to 23 year olds but then as you get older it will cease to be tailored to your particular desires.

Meanwhile in Canada there are a lot more generic middle class neighbourhoods that are not particularly differentiated one way or the other.

Here in metro Vancouver the suburban options are pretty underwhelming. They are relatively expensive and often don't even give you the space and privacy most North Americans would associate with suburbia. There is a huge price penalty for going from multi unit to single unit, and even places like Chilliwack or Squamish aren't all that affordable (despite lackluster local jobs and amenities), so it feels like you don't get much trading your condo for suburbia.

I think you're onto something with your point about the price penalty from moving from a condo to suburbia/SFH in our larger cities.

I think one of the key differences in the US is that there are so many 2nd and 3rd tier cities to move to that have the same basic amenities as "the big city" but don't destroy your finances. Denver, Charlotte and Minneapolis all feature a few city blocks of most of the urban amenities that you would find in larger, more expensive cities. By comparison, they also have ample parking (day or night), easier commutes and cheaper houses with yards.

The next tier down is picking up on this as the 2nd tier gets priced out - and so on.

[Upwardly mobile] Americans tend relocate between cities and states considerably more than Canadians do, perhaps because the selection is so much greater.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

very true. And our permissive infrastructure planning has enabled this sort of thinking to become the norm. It is sort of crazy that we have created a world where many people think they are entitled to driving their 3000kg pickup truck anywhere they want, anytime they want, at a very low cost (except, of course, to our urban fabric and to the environment). No wonder half the population is fat.

As much as I hate to say it, there is a certain logic behind that.

Streets and cities have always reflected the dominant means of transportation of the day.

When the dominant mode of transportation was walking, streets looked like this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8590379,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

Things have evolved progressively since then, following changes in how most humans tend to get from place to place.

With of course the ensuing consequences on what so many of our places look like , the environment, and people's health.

[someone123]

When covid hit there were tons of Americans who started looking at moving from the Bay Area to Austin, Colorado, etc. I am not sure Austin would exactly be my speed but I would probably like it. It is not too small or boring, it has a warm and sunny climate, and it's affordable.

It's unclear what Vancouver's Austin analog is. I don't think it exists. Victoria is quiet and still pretty expensive. The Prairies are cold and socially pretty different from the coasts (though Austin may be kind of overrated for liberalness; I am not sure, but I am a bit skeptical). The rest of the country is many time zones away and the flights are expensive/inconvenient.

The eastern half of Canada is a bit better with a wider range of options and shorter distances.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I sincerely hope the driver of that Monster Energy truck is going to Michael's to pick up some watercolours. The mix of bucket loads of caffeine,B-vitamins and paint could potentially make for some very interesting art.

[megadude]

Originally Posted by niwell

I was in Omaha exactly 2 years ago (just had to check - damn time flies) and found the same sort of juxtaposition. Though the surface parking situation isn't as dire as Tulsa, and the city was surprisingly vibrant and seemed to have a big arts scene.

Regardless, there's some really great built form that Canadian cities of the same size would lack - just without the same level of infill. Would have loved to walk around more but it was freezing and extremely windy at the time.

Downtown:
https://goo.gl/maps/WWr12M2SXLyzzxCU9
https://goo.gl/maps/NHWvWhmzWv1aiYSS9
https://goo.gl/maps/u9vuBcbWW8iEC9619

Old Market
https://goo.gl/maps/4DP14ZRNcYBvpriN7

We stayed in an area called Benson which is about 7km outside downtown but has a nice commercial street with lots of bars, restaurants and performance spaces:
https://goo.gl/maps/C1pWVNUKAZMxVx6P6

The Farnham st corridor also had some nice commercial stretches and a number of old apartment buildings:
https://goo.gl/maps/9btoBWFwH5z8bgPk9

5 years ago I passed through Omaha on the way to Denver. I didn't stop because the plan was to one day catch a Cornhuskers game in Lincoln, not far away.

But ya, I've heard that Omaha has some unexpected vibrancy.

[megadude]

Agree that how cities were built somewhat conditioned their region's population on mindset. If Tulsa was built more densely and less car dependent then most likely there would be a greater population downtown and that way of living and thinking could have gradually spread out a little bit into the surrounding region.

As it is now, in the first Tulsa pic, 9 out of the 10 cars shown are SUVs or pickups. This is fairly representative I'd guess. Most pepole from that area of the country can't or won't bother negotiating parking garage ramps with those vehicles.

Plus, what would they fill in those parking lots with now if they were to change course? Retail is becoming more and more online centric. Office space isn't as necessary as it once was. Industrial doesn't go downtown. And I'm not sure if people in these types of areas even know what a condo is. I mean, I know it would have been preferable to not go the car centric route in the first place decades ago but not sure what they can do about it now. Apartments perhaps, but have to make sure it's not all afforable housing or you get too many from the wrong crowd congregating in the same place. If rent is too high, and there's not enough attractions DT to appeal to people to live there, then they have to drop those rents.

I myself much prefer to watch a concert at Copps in Hamilton than the ACC in TO. I'm halfway in between. Going to TO involves me driving to the GO, wait for train, get on train, get off at Union and walk a few minutes. It's actually a longer trip than if I just drive the half hour to Hamilton and park 5 minute walk. And cheaper too.

Mind you, I have been working DT TO since 2007 so I try to avoid going DT past working hours at all costs so there's a mental aspect to this. If I didn't work DT, I'd probably go through the trouble of going to TO because of the bright lights, big city. That energy would enhance the whole concert going experience, but I've seen enough of DT TO to not care anymore.

If I lived in DT Hamilton I imagine I wouldn't want the parking lots there knowing that if it were filled in with something else it would be better than an expanse of asphalt.

[megadude]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Funny enough, they're usually pretty terrible to work in. Unless you're talking like Empire State Building type scale, the pre-war skyscrapers typically all have tiny floorplates and very small open spaces due to restrictions in construction techniques from 100 years ago. The largest one I've been in is 40 Wall Street in New York, and it definitely has a claustrophobic prison vibe at some parts with very little natural light. The floor plans for the upper floors at Commerce Court North in Toronto are actually hilarious. Like paying for 5,000 SF and probably having <2,000 of it actually be usable because of how much space the core and structural elements take up. Not to mention paying twice as much in operating costs psf compared to a brand new building.

I love the buildings, but I'd actually much rather work in something like CIBC Square and look at them from a distance.

Ya I wouldn't want to work in one of those buildings either. Same with houses. I like the way Victorian homes look but I would never want to live in one, whether it was in the city or on a farm.

The guy I know is from TO but spent a few years in MTL as well. I think he has a romanticized view of them as his dad was an executive in one of those buildings and he probably imagined his dad sipping cognac and smoking cigars in his office while heading over to the Royal York to bang his mistress after work.

I'm not sure I've actually been up one of these buildings but I do know I found the Royal York kind of stuffy and not to my liking. Gorgeous building and lobby, but not somewhere I spend too much time in. I remember seeing a room before they did their latest renos and I was like no thanks, I'd rather spend a night in a more modern place.

I would also want to work in a more modern office, but doesn't have to be brand spanking new. And lots of natural light from big windows is preferable.

[J.OT13]

Hull sector of Gatineau.


https://twitter.com/iciottgat/status/1329046963749150720


https://twitter.com/LeDroitca/status/1329132530017058816

LeBreton Flats looking west.


https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/photo-gallerie...hotos-of-the-day-november-2020-1.5171846

Along the Rideau Canal looking north.


https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/photo-galleries/ottawa-during-the-covid-19-pandemic-1.4860249

Ça vas bien aller.



https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/photo-galleries/ottawa-during-the-covid-19-pandemic-1.4860249

[csbvan]

A bit of DT Vancouver on a stormy November day:

20201118_133807
Source: https://twitter.com/TrishJewison/status/1329174482045468672

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Whoa! I woulda put my money on that being from Alberta, not Chatham-Kent, Ontario!

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by someone123

When covid hit there were tons of Americans who started looking at moving from the Bay Area to Austin, Colorado, etc. I am not sure Austin would exactly be my speed but I would probably like it. It is not too small or boring, it has a warm and sunny climate, and it's affordable.

It's unclear what Vancouver's Austin analog is. I don't think it exists. Victoria is quiet and still pretty expensive. The Prairies are cold and socially pretty different from the coasts (though Austin may be kind of overrated for liberalness; I am not sure, but I am a bit skeptical). The rest of the country is many time zones away and the flights are expensive/inconvenient.

The eastern half of Canada is a bit better with a wider range of options and shorter distances.

Does Vancouver need a direct equivalent to Austin?

Does everything in Canada need a direct US equivalent?

Maybe sometimes not having the exact same geographical options is actually what adds a little uniqueness to the Canadian urban form to the US.

I’m actually happy that most cities in BC are any able to sprawl endlessly with oversized houses on oversized plots of land.

Give me tight Japanese / Korean / European style urbanism over American style any day (and luckily which is what most cities in BC have become / are becoming).

Living in apartments or tightly packed detached houses with small yards isn’t that bad of a thing IMO. I actually prefer it. The only way I would ever want a large yard is if I were to go full hobby farm / working ranch. Only then would I see joy and purpose in a big plot of land.

And given our smaller populations and scales if you think Vancouver really needs a direct analogy for Austin, well, it seems to be Kelowna and other surrounding interior towns. My entire family over the last 10 years has shifted from the Lower Mainland to Kelowna and Nelson, as have many of their friends and several of my friends (Kamloops has also become a popular choice) and so far they all seem very happy with the move. A few have gone west to the Island as well (often around Nanaimo or Campbell River or Courtney Comox)

Also Canadian cities may not have the large commercial pre war towers of the US, but we actually have our own major structures to enjoy. Our government buildings are more often than not gorgeous and have a major presence while having their own unique flare, then there are the chateaux railway hotels that are very uniquely Canadian. Nothing says grand pre war Canada more than the Hotel Vancouver, and it’s size is no slouch. I have had several people in Japan immediately tell me how they spent a night in Hotel Vancouver after I tell them I am from Vancouver. It’s funny to see what impresses foreigners in Canada. Also while our pre war structures are not as numerous or large as they are in America, the ones we do have are often among the best examples of their architectural styles. For example, while it isn’t too large (only 98 metres tall) the Marine Building is easily in the top 5 best Art Deco buildings I have ever seen.

[MolsonExport]

Chatham_kent is basically Red Deer

[J.OT13]

Panorama of the central west end of Ottawa. From left to right (or west to west) are Tunney's Pasture and Westboro, Lemieux Island Water Purification Plant and Prince of Wales Bridge, Hull and Zibi, LeBreton Flats and Escarpment/CBD, Centretown and Centretown West, Little Italy and Dow's Lake with Carleton University in the background, Experimental Farm and Civic Hospital area, Hintonburg and Westboro beyond.

DJI_0238-Pano by harley613, on Flickr

Larger version:

DJI_0238-Pano by harley613, on Flickr

Similar panorama with downtown Hull, Zibi, the CBD and Escarpment District, LeBreton.

DJI_0247-Pano by harley613, on Flickr

Images taken from above the future site of Trinity at Bayview Station complex, which will include Ottawa's tallest at 65 floors. Huge thanks to Ottawa forumer Harley.