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[acottawa]

And then we find out Alex Trebek had some views at some point in his life that we no longer consider acceptable and we have to rename it again.

We're going to and up filling downtown with silly suburban-style street names like willowbrook.

[passwordisnt123]

Gladstone was a particularly awful person even by the standards of his own time and was a corrupt politician to boot.

From Wikipedia:

Gladstone's attitude towards slavery was highly shaped by his father, Sir John Gladstone, one of the largest slave owners in the British Empire. Both father and son opposed emancipation, saying the slaves first had to have better morals. They also opposed the international slave trade (which lowered the value of the slaves the father already owned).... In 1834, when slavery was abolished across the British Empire, the owners were paid full value for the slaves. Gladstone helped his father obtain £106,769 in official reimbursement by the government for the 2,508 slaves he owned across nine plantations in the Caribbean.

He was virulently anti-semitic and anti-Catholic, which makes it especially inappropriate for his name to be associated with the street given its location. Of Turkish people he said they "were, upon the whole, from the black day when they first entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity".

I for one won't mind removing his name from a street in our city and replacing it with Alex Trebek's name. If you want to cry about some dead crooked British aristocrat's feelings, that's more than a little weird but you do you, I guess.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

Gladstone was a particularly awful person even by the standards of his own time and was a corrupt politician to boot.

From Wikipedia:



He was virulently anti-semitic and anti-Catholic, which makes it especially inappropriate for his name to be associated with the street given its location. Of Turkish people he said they "were, upon the whole, from the black day when they first entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity".

I for one won't mind removing his name from a street in our city and replacing it with Alex Trebek's name. If you want to cry about some dead crooked British aristocrat's feelings, that's more than a little weird but you do you, I guess.

Didn't know about his father's involvement in the slave trade. Although Gladstones attitude is reflective of the feelings at that point in history.

I still find that the US founding fathers getting a free pass is even more weird.

[J.OT13]

Both father and son opposed emancipation, saying the slaves first had to have better morals.

The slaves needed better morals? How rich of the Glad-stun morons.

I don't support renaming Gladstone. My position certainly isn't to honour the asshole it's named for, but because the majority of us didn't know who it was named for or why for the last 100 years (give or take). The fact that we miss-pronounce the name is even more of an indication that we don't need to re-name it.

As has been suggested by others, we could change it's namesake and say that from here on out, it's named for the now deceased David Gladstone, a community activist and member of Friends of the O-Train.

[J.OT13]

I would love to see something named for Alex Trebek. The Alex Trebek Central Library could be fitting considering he dedicated his life promoting knowledge through his donations to the University of Ottawa and his game shows, including Jeopardy.

The Hospital Link could also be an option.

What about naming the Alexandra Bridge's replacement after Alex Trebek? It's about half way between the University of Ottawa and the Royal Canadian Geographical Society.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

And then we find out Alex Trebek had some views at some point in his life that we no longer consider acceptable and we have to rename it again.

We're going to and up filling downtown with silly suburban-style street names like willowbrook.

I admit to being torn between the idea that Gladstone (and lord knows how many other people we've named things for) was probably a very nasty dude, and the consideration highlighted above.

Canada is already extremely amnesiac and ahistorical as it is. Pushing the country even further down that path by erasing historical names (even controversial) is, well, I dunno...

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canada is already extremely amnesiac and ahistorical as it is. Pushing the country even further down that path by erasing historical names (even controversial) is, well, I dunno...

I suppose that explains why everybody in Ottawa knew who William Ewart Gladstone was because we had a street named after him and why nobody has ever heard of Socrates or Beethoven or Julius Caesar or Genghis Khan or Mussolini because we have no streets named after them.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Although Gladstones attitude is reflective of the feelings at that point in history.

No, it wasn't. He left office in 1894.

[Acajack]

I looked up Gladstone's bio just for fun.

There is both good and bad in there, and while I don't really care whether a street in Ottawa is named for him or not, I still find it odd to view people from long ago through the strict lens of a single issue (as abhorrent as something like slavery was).

And AFAIK his comments about the Turks were made in the context of a conflict where the Ottomans had invaded parts of the Balkans in Europe and very brutally oppressed the locals there. It's common practice (or at least was) to dehumanize your adversaries in times of violent conflict. Saying Gladstone was racist to Turks makes it sound like he was race-baiting innocent hard-working immigrant Turks who were just trying survive by operating cafés and carpet shops in London. It wasn't that at all.

Ultimately it's up to the British to decide if he truly is, as some historians say, one of their greatest PMs.

Also, Gladstone died about 60 years after the British abolished slavery, but this does not mean that it was a totally settled issue in terms of public opinion or even politics at the time.

Roe vs. Wade is at this point going on 60 years in the U.S., and I don't think people would call abortion a 100% "settled" issue there today.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

No, it wasn't. He left office in 1894.

Oh gee, I'm being schooled by someone on the internet. My life is over.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

No, it wasn't. He left office in 1894.

But the slavery comments people complain about was 50 years earlier.

[Urbanarchit]

I don't know if what I say will make any sense, but I'll try.

I've lived off Gladstone for most of my life and never once thought about it being named after someone nor did I care. It was a street with a memorable name compared to generic streets like Lewis or Primrose. There's Dundonald Park on Somerset Street. Who was Dundonald and Somerset and do I care? What about Elgin? To me, they're just names of important streets rather than people we're memorializing - people who may have a past we judge nowadays as atrocious. Honestly, I think you'll find a good number of people in history who are memorialized in a number of ways who are virulently racist, sexist, homophobic. But should we research every street and park to see who they're named after and purge them if they were objectionable by today's standards? When does a street name become a name for a street rather than a street named after someone forgotten/ unimportant to people nowadays?

I like the way "Gladstone" sounds and would rather keep such names Somerset, Wellington, Preston, Elgin, Holland, Byron, Churchill, Metcalfe, O'Connor, Sparks. I can forget who they're named after and accept it as just a name.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Urbanarchit

I don't know if what I say will make any sense, but I'll try.

I've lived off Gladstone for most of my life and never once thought about it being named after someone nor did I care. It was a street with a memorable name compared to generic streets like Lewis or Primrose. There's Dundonald Park on Somerset Street. Who was Dundonald and Somerset and do I care? What about Elgin? To me, they're just names of important streets rather than people we're memorializing - people who may have a past we judge nowadays as atrocious. Honestly, I think you'll find a good number of people in history who are memorialized in a number of ways who are virulently racist, sexist, homophobic. But should we research every street and park to see who they're named after and purge them if they were objectionable by today's standards? When does a street name become a name for a street rather than a street named after someone forgotten/ unimportant to people nowadays?

I like the way "Gladstone" sounds and would rather keep such names Somerset, Wellington, Preston, Elgin, Holland, Byron, Churchill, Metcalfe, O'Connor, Sparks. I can forget who they're named after and accept it as just a name.

The "archit" in your user name suggests you are involved in architecture in some way. So you're probably sensitive to the notion of "sense of place".

Street names and other toponyms, IMHO, contribute to sense of place.

I don't know much about Wellington other than he defeated Napoléon at Waterloo and I think was also British PM. Which is probably more than the majority of people know. I have no idea if he was a good guy or a scoundrel, aside from those claims to fame.

But I do know that if the street in front of Parliament was renamed something like Cliff Street, Ottawa would move up a few notches on the banality scale, at least in my book.

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The "archit" in your user name suggests you are involved in architecture in some way. So you're probably sensitive to the notion of "sense of place".

Street names and other toponyms, IMHO, contribute to sense of place.

I don't know much about Wellington other than he defeated Napoléon at Waterloo and I think was also British PM. Which is probably more than the majority of people know. I have no idea if he was a good guy or a scoundrel, aside from those claims to fame.

But I do know that if the street in front of Parliament was renamed something like Cliff Street, Ottawa would move up a few notches on the banality scale, at least in my book.

You would be correct, I am an unlicensed architectural technologist working at a firm. Your comment about sense of place is quite accurate, but makes me wonder about whether names after historical figures makes different minority groups feel uncomfortable or not. Like, there used to be social housing on Gladstone at Rochester and Booth where a good number of people were PoC. Did they feel uncomfortable by the name or did they just associate the name with the street and not the person it's named after. If it's anything like how I feel, Gladstone is a street and not a person. What I associate Gladstone with is a street that I like and feel has potential to be a great urban street.

As a person of Italian heritage whose family lived on Preston when they immigrated here, I really dislike naming anything Corso Italia. If you want to rename something Italian, let's consider important Italians from Ottawa or something. It sounds tacky to my ears (Italy Course).

[Acajack]

Of course, even though we might see something named for Alex Trebek and Gladstone might become Corso Italia, the vast majority of renamings are likely to yield indigenous names.

Nothing wrong with that, BTW.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Urbanarchit

You would be correct, I am an unlicensed architectural technologist working at a firm. Your comment about sense of place is quite accurate, but makes me wonder about whether names after historical figures makes different minority groups feel uncomfortable or not. Like, there used to be social housing on Gladstone at Rochester and Booth where a good number of people were PoC. Did they feel uncomfortable by the name or did they just associate the name with the street and not the person it's named after. If it's anything like how I feel, Gladstone is a street and not a person. What I associate Gladstone with is a street that I like and feel has potential to be a great urban street.

I would wager that unless someone embarks or embarked on a publicity campaign about Gladstone's views on slavery, that probably only 0.0001% of people (even if they were black) would have been aware of this.

Also, a fairly large segment (perhaps a majority at this point, or at least soon) of black people in Ottawa don't have any family historical relationship with the transatlantic African slave trade that was run by the British, French, Spanish, Portuguese, etc.

[kevinbottawa]

I'm Black and I'm not offended by names like Gladstone, but I'm probably the minority on this issue. If you were to rename everything that had ties to slavery or any other dark part of our history, you'd have to rename almost everything and dedicate unnecessary resources to those renamings. Most people have no idea who certain streets were originally named after. Some street names have become iconic within their cities, like Dundas Street in Toronto which some are calling to be renamed. Can you imagine Toronto without a Dundas Street? We all just need to admit that there were bright and dark aspects to our history and learn from it. I'm more upset with current instances of racism than historical ones. But again, I'm probably one of the few Black people that feel this way.

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by kevinbottawa

I'm Black and I'm not offended by names like Gladstone, but I'm probably the minority on this issue. If you were to rename everything that had ties to slavery or any other dark part of our history, you'd have to rename almost everything and dedicate unnecessary resources to those renamings. Most people have no idea who certain streets were originally named after. Some street names have become iconic within their cities, like Dundas Street in Toronto which some are calling to be renamed. Can you imagine Toronto without a Dundas Street? We all just need to admit that there were bright and dark aspects to our history and learn from it. I'm more upset with current instances of racism than historical ones. But again, I'm probably one of the few Black people that feel this way.

I agree with what you say. Renaming streets named after people most of us likely know little and care little about does nothing to resolve real issues of discrimination and bigotry people actually face. It's just an easy, feel-good way for people (often non-minorities) to feel like they're doing something while not really having to care or do anything. Like, changing a street name doesn't resolve the issues of police harassing and assaulting First Nations peoples on those streets.

[Acajack]

I would never oppose it, but renaming lots of stuff with indigenous names when the indigenous people you're naming it for are basically no longer there (for whatever reason) is a bit weird to me as well.

Think of today's Ottawa (or any Canadian city) as currently populated but with predominantly indigenous street and place names...

[Acajack]

I don't know how I'd feel if Detroit or St. Louis, or even somewhere in Nova Scotia with no Acadians, all of a sudden decided to change a whole bunch of their street names and make them French.

It'd just be bizarre.