West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[Lightspotting]

Originally Posted by biguc

Why is the POW such an impossibility anyway?

There are more reasons but off the top of my head

-POW bridge is in very rough shape, needs tons of money for rehabilitation
-it would explode capacity at Bayview, riders would have to switch on to the confed line which wasn't built for phase 1-2-3+ Gatineau LRT. Keep in mind Bayview is also getting the Trinity complex so it will be a very busy station.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by biguc

Why is the POW such an impossibility anyway?

It is not that using the Prince of Wales for transit is “impossible” – it is just that it is not very desirable.

If the Trillium Line is extended across the river, then those boarding it in Gatineau would need to transfer to it, and then transfer again onto the Confederating Line. With a lot of people coming north to the Confederation Line, via an extended Line 2, it is likely that the crush of people trying to get onto Line 1 at Bayview will already be an issue. If the people from Gatineau are added on top of that, then there would, almost certainly, be a capacity problem. The only option would be to add a lot more capacity to Line 1 – for just a few stops in the middle of the line. This would cost the City of Ottawa a lot of money.

So, in summary; with an extended Trillium Line, those coming from Gatineau will go from single-seat travel to having to transfer twice and then pack into over-crowded trains.

If the Aylmer Tram uses the Prince of Wales Bridge to get to Bayview, then it could go no further and everyone from it would need to transfer onto the Confederation Line. Only one extra transfer, and, perhaps, fewer people, but still an inconvenience for the travelers and a potential capacity problem for Line 1.

If, as in the preferred option, the Aylmer Tram goes to downtown Ottawa directly, then the riders maintain their single seat and the STO is handling all of the extra capacity needed.

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

It is not that using the Prince of Wales for transit is “impossible” – it is just that it is not very desirable.

If the Trillium Line is extended across the river, then those boarding it in Gatineau would need to transfer to it, and then transfer again onto the Confederating Line. With a lot of people coming north to the Confederation Line, via an extended Line 2, it is likely that the crush of people trying to get onto Line 1 at Bayview will already be an issue. If the people from Gatineau are added on top of that, then there would, almost certainly, be a capacity problem. The only option would be to add a lot more capacity to Line 1 – for just a few stops in the middle of the line. This would cost the City of Ottawa a lot of money.

So, in summary; with an extended Trillium Line, those coming from Gatineau will go from single-seat travel to having to transfer twice and then pack into over-crowded trains.

If the Aylmer Tram uses the Prince of Wales Bridge to get to Bayview, then it could go no further and everyone from it would need to transfer onto the Confederation Line. Only one extra transfer, and, perhaps, fewer people, but still an inconvenience for the travelers and a potential capacity problem for Line 1.

If, as in the preferred option, the Aylmer Tram goes to downtown Ottawa directly, then the riders maintain their single seat and the STO is handling all of the extra capacity needed.

Or maybe people from Gatineau are Carleton students and stay on the train? And I think the POW is good, not as the ONLY connection between Ottawa and Gatineau, but in addition to Portage and Alexandria. the more transit connections, the better.

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

Or maybe people from Gatineau are Carleton students and stay on the train? And I think the POW is good, not as the ONLY connection between Ottawa and Gatineau, but in addition to Portage and Alexandria. the more transit connections, the better.

Did you actually read the article?, as Mahommed Adam was not talking about the POW being the 2nd or 3rd connection between the cities, they were talking about it being the Primary connection.

Something that has been thoroughly dismissed as a viable option and as for its use as a second connection well that still requires the first connection to at least start construction.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

First off, the loop, for maybe $1B, including the Alexandra Bridge set to be replaced anyway, would probably attract more riders than the nearly $5B Barrhaven and Stittsville extensions.

Would it though? Not saying there's more value in the Barrhaven/Kanata extensions than the loop, but those suburbs account for over 200,000 people, many of which are commuters. The loop area I would imagine is probably like 50,000 people at the very most, many of which bike and walk to get around. Once again, not saying I prefer one over the other, just skeptical about whether it would truly attract more riders.

And finally, the elimination of Bayview as the STO's only transfer point has been explained to death. For the love of God people (and journalists, and politicians), STOP BRING-UP BAYVIEW.

Agreed, it's time to move on and plan a more robust connection between Gatineau and Ottawa.

[rocketphish]

Gatineau tram would cost more than $3B, City of Ottawa considers Sparks Street tunnel 'optimal'
Société de transport de l’Outaouais is planning a Gatineau-Ottawa transit system that would extend over the Portage Bridge and into the parliamentary precinct.

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Nov 07, 2020 • Last Updated 1 hour ago • 3 minute read

A Gatineau-based tram system that extends into Ottawa’s downtown would cost more than $3 billion, and while City of Ottawa staff support both alternatives for bringing trains into the core, they consider the expensive Sparks Street tunnel project the “optimal” option.

Société de transport de l’Outaouais is planning a Gatineau-Ottawa transit system that would extend over the Portage Bridge and into the parliamentary precinct. It could be an electric tram system or a combination of a tram and bus system, though the tram-only option is the frontrunner.

After the tram runs from west Gatineau and crosses into Ottawa, the two options to run trains east involve building tracks on the surface of Wellington Street or digging a tunnel under Sparks Street.

The high-level construction estimates, as revealed in a City of Ottawa report to council published on Friday, illustrate the massive financial requirements for building another train tunnel in Ottawa.

The complete Gatineau-Ottawa tram system under the Wellington Street option would cost $3.032 billion.

The Sparks Street tunnel option would be between $3.532 billion and $3.899 billion.

In other words, it would cost more than $500 million more to build the tunnel, an astronomical figure that the City of Ottawa acknowledges as a significant barrier to seriously pursuing that option.

The City of Ottawa, however, has no skin in the game when it comes to paying for construction — that will be up to STO to figure out and it will likely require total financial support from the Quebec and federal governments. The Quebec government has committed to paying for a portion of the project.

Since the tram would cross into the City of Ottawa and use municipal land, city hall needs to give its blessing to STO.

It will be up to the city’s transportation committee on Nov. 16 to make a recommendation to council.

The City of Ottawa’s priorities when it comes to the tram project are reducing bus traffic in the core and linking with the Confederation Line LRT.

The Wellington Street option would have stops at Lyon Street, Bank Street and the line’s terminus at Elgin Street. A pedestrian tunnel could be built to connect the tram system with Confederation Line’s Lyon Station.

The Sparks Street tunnel option would have stations at Lyon Street and O’Connor Street and present opportunities to provide the underground pedestrian connections to the Confederation Line tunnel, which is under Queen Street.

When it comes to the Wellington Street option, there are two methods under review by consultants: one that allows all modes of travel through to Elgin Street and another that would ban car traffic between Bank Street and Elgin Street.

Transportation planners at the City of Ottawa prefer keeping car traffic on Wellington Street, even with the tight space requirements for multiple modes of travel. In the report, the planners warn that the surface tram would knock car traffic down to one lane in each direction and restrict turning access.

A Wellington Street tram would require land from the feds to cram in all the necessary transportation infrastructure, including sidewalks, cycling lanes, car lanes and two sets of tram tracks.

A surface tram system on a busy road like Wellington Street also requires deep thought into how pedestrians will cross the street. There are eight crossing points but the STO study has suggested only four crossings with the addition of a tram.

The City of Ottawa is proposing conditions be placed on STO if Wellington Street is the project’s preferred corridor. The conditions would push STO to secure land from the feds, study traffic impacts on other Ottawa streets and create mitigation plans for snow clearing, tour bus operations and protests.

[email protected]
twitter.com/JoanthanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...a-considers-sparks-street-tunnel-optimal

[kwoldtimer]

Is there an economic case for spending $3B for a Gatineau tramway?

[OCCheetos]

A Wellington Street tram would require land from the feds to cram in all the necessary transportation infrastructure, including sidewalks, cycling lanes, car lanes and two sets of tram tracks.

[Multi-modal]

Here is the report link (hopefully it works): http://app05.ottawa.ca/sirepub/cache/2/dj2nohgeg3aozmt2wfvxwamn/66503211072020095203213.PDF

Some relevant details:

Traffic Impacts of Wellington Street alignment options

The high-level findings from this limited analysis found that the impact of scenarios that required a reduction of vehicle capacity on Wellington Street (reduction of vehicular lanes, or full removal of traffic east of Bank Street) would result in intersection movements operating beyond capacity, as they do today, but with increased congestion and delays. Out of the 18 intersections analyzed for the on street tramway options, in the scenario where vehicular traffic is allowed to move along the length of Wellington, three of the major westerly intersections of the study
experience near or at capacity issues (Portage Bridge and Wellington Street/Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway (SJAM), Booth Street and SJAM, Booth Street and Albert Street). In comparison, for the scenario where traffic is not allowed east of Bank Street, six of the intersections in the westerly end of the study will experience overcapacity issues (Portage Bridge and Wellington Street/SJAM, Booth Street and SJAM, Booth Street and Albert Street, Lyon Street and Wellington Street, Lyon Street and Albert Street, Lyon Street and Laurier Avenue). This is true with or without mitigating measures, such as traffic redistribution and geometry changes at some intersections.

Property Requirements of Wellington with Traffic Option

The Wellington Street right-of-way (ROW) is restricted throughout the entire corridor and there are many competing needs for the space. Minimum standards are being applied to accommodate the tramway. However, the conceptual cross-sections prepared to date did not provide space in the median to accommodate signage or signal poles, and there is no room for snow storage. Given the high volumes of pedestrian traffic in this corridor, and expected draw with the introduction of the tramway, more than minimum widths should be provided for station platforms and
sidewalks in this iconic corridor of Ottawa’s downtown.

Even with minimum standards, for the section west of Lyon Street, the existing ROW is approximately 29.5 metres, and at least 34.3 metres are needed to accommodate the tramway. Between Lyon Street and Kent Street, the existing ROW is approximately 30 metres, and at least 32.3 metres or 33.3 metres are needed (depending on traffic restrictions east of Bank Street).

Cycling Accommodation

Bi-directional cycling lanes along the north side of Wellington Street continue to be protected, but there is a 50-metre segment that is compromised (east of Bank Street, for the option that includes traffic). Through this constricted segment, only 6 metres are available for cyclists and pedestrians. A shared pedestrian and cycling facility is not recommended by City staff. Given that the City currently allows escooters on bike facilities, it would not be prudent to have them mix with pedestrians, especially in an area that has high pedestrian volumes, including visitors who may not be familiar with the surroundings. The bi-directional cycling lanes would need to
be at least 3.5 metres wide, leaving only 2.5 metres for a sidewalk on Confederation Boulevard (not taking into account the need for some minimal form of delineator between the two facilities to comply with the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act (AODA)). The NCC would also have to approve the narrow sidewalk, as the design guidelines for Confederation Boulevard call for a 6-metre-wide pedestrian promenade.

More space can be achieved for cyclists and pedestrians in the option without traffic on Wellington Street from Bank Street to Elgin Street. The removal of travel lanes would have greater ramifications for vehicular traffic on other downtown streets, including Elgin Street, and other surrounding streets and intersections outside the immediate downtown area

While I am generally supportive of the Sparks tunnel option, I am extremely disappointed in this report's dismissal of the Wellington without traffic option and recommendation of the Wellington with traffic option as a 2nd choice (after the tunnel). This is another example of City planners writing lovely policy around sustainable transportation, but failing to make the consequential decisions that would move the City in a sustainable direction. At every opportunity they consistently show a lack vision and an unwillingness to reduce traffic capacity even when the benefits of doing so are numerous.

Overall, no justification for dismissing the without traffic option is given other than the fact that 6 intersections would operate over-capacity, which is 3 more than the with traffic option. The 3 additional intersections that operate overcapacity are Lyon Street's intersections with Wellington Street, Albert Street, and Laurier Avenue. In reality, only one or two intersections would actually operate over-capacity in either option, as one or two intersections would throttle the capacity of the system and prevent vehicles from reaching the subsequent intersections.

They significantly gloss over the challenges of the "with traffic" scenario,
pretending that issues with this scenario can be mitigated by road widening (note that the default to road widening is typical of a transportation engineer/planner that doesn't want to make hard choices). Some of these issues (not all listed in the report) include:

• incredibly complicated and dangerous pedestrian crossings of Wellington Street (a pedestrian would have to cross bidirectional vehicle lanes, a bidirectional tramway, and a bidirectional cycle track!!),
• security concerns (from vehicle bombs, and vehicular homicide),
• longer delay to all users because vehicle lanes/movements on Wellington Street require additional traffic signal phases,
• etc...

No use wasting my time ranting about this more, but again - very disappointed in the City's transportation planners on their recommendation.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

Or maybe people from Gatineau are Carleton students and stay on the train? And I think the POW is good, not as the ONLY connection between Ottawa and Gatineau, but in addition to Portage and Alexandria. the more transit connections, the better.

Agreed with that. PoW is fine as a secondary connection to the loop, with Trillium crossing the bridge to the western edge of Zibi, hitting UQO station (RapiBus terminus) on its way.

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Would it though? Not saying there's more value in the Barrhaven/Kanata extensions than the loop, but those suburbs account for over 200,000 people, many of which are commuters. The loop area I would imagine is probably like 50,000 people at the very most, many of which bike and walk to get around. Once again, not saying I prefer one over the other, just skeptical about whether it would truly attract more riders.

Cost aside, Stage 3 does have a certain value. Bringing not only buses, but park-and-rides (a major drawback from Stage 2). Both Barrhaven and Kanata have some density now and more planed. Kanata is a significant employment hub and so is Barrhaven on a smaller scale. Both extensions will have decent ridership, at rush hour.

That said, those extensions will not add a significant amount of new riders. They will be used mainly at rush-hour, possibly at a reduced rate with the rise of WFH.

The loop will be used at rush-hour by Gatineau riders heading to Ottawa, but also Ottawa riders heading to Hull. Hundreds of redundant buses will be eliminated. Trains will be full on the entire loop (but run empty heading back to Plateau and Aylmer). The loop however, will not just be a rush-hour commuter train; it will be used by thousands of tourists and locals throughout the day. It will hit various National destinations, two (three with Zibi?) entertainment districts and thousands of apartments and condos occupied by people who choose to live without cars. It's a transit line that will be used all day, everyday from morning rush-hour until the bar districts' exodus at 2am and 3am.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Is there an economic case for spending $3B for a Gatineau tramway?

Yes. Consider Ottawa has spent $7B so far on converting a mostly functional Transitway and are asking for an additional $5B (for a total of $12B) to finish the job.

Gatineau is asking $3B-$4B to build a rail line serving an area that has no real highway or transit priority.

[J.OT13]

So these new estimates, has the City of Gatineau specified if it's for the full-tram option or one of the hybrid options?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

So these new estimates, has the City of Gatineau specified if it's for the full-tram option or one of the hybrid options?

From the Ottawa staff report:

The STO study identified that the all-tram scenario in Gatineau would have the greatest
impact in reducing the number of STO buses crossing into Ottawa – by 70 per cent of
the existing bus volumes (from 115 buses per peak hour to 35 buses per peak hour).
This is the most beneficial option for the City of Ottawa and endorsement of this option
is recommended.

It seems to suggest they've settled on all-tram.

Edit: though in the rest of the report they do bring up hybrid options anyway..
Edit2: "STO has confirmed that an all-tram solution can be supported." whatever that means.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Yes. Consider Ottawa has spent $7B so far on converting a mostly functional Transitway and are asking for an additional $5B (for a total of $12B) to finish the job.

Gatineau is asking $3B-$4B to build a rail line serving an area that has no real highway or transit priority.

After spending $15 billion, if the two systems still won’t have a direct, fare-paid transfer point, it would be a tragedy.

[rocketphish]

National Capital Region 'Loop' is an idea whose time has come

Tobi Nussbaum, CEO of the NCC
Publishing date: Nov 09, 2020 • Last Updated 17 minutes ago • 3 minute read

As COVID-19 continues to disrupt old habits and impels us to rethink how we move from home to work to play and back, a confluence of transportation initiatives currently underway offers an opportunity to rethink connections within the urban core of the National Capital Region.

First, at the request of the government of Canada, the National Capital Commission (NCC) is currently undertaking a long-term interprovincial crossings plan, looking at expected future trends and the infrastructure required to meet them. Second, public consultations are underway regarding the planned replacement of the government of Canada-owned Alexandra Bridge as it approaches the end of its lifespan. Third, the City of Gatineau and its public transportation agency – Société des Transports de l’Outaouais (STO) – are embarking on a tramway project that would see the tracks cross over to Ottawa via the NCC-owned Portage Bridge with proximate transfer opportunities with the City of Ottawa’s public transit system and downtown destinations.

So the timing, a few days ago, was auspicious on the part of the Supporters of the Loop – a network of citizens from both sides of the river – who launched their own campaign advocating for a tramway loop around Confederation Boulevard, lining Gatineau and Ottawa. The proposed loop would link Wellington Street and a north-south corridor such as Mackenzie Avenue or Sussex Drive with Laurier Avenue in Gatineau via the Alexandra and Portage bridges. Their renderings of the loop envisioned a future car-free Wellington Street with a tramway, a tree canopy, and wide pedestrian and cycling paths.

Together, these projects and plans offer us a once-in-a-lifetime chance to be visionary in our planning and bold in our implementation.

Building on the proposed STO tramway project, a Confederation Boulevard transit loop would make crossing the river easier for both Gatineau and Ottawa residents alike, providing convenient access to federal government job sites, arts and entertainment venues, restaurants and shops, and serve to deepen the ties in the region. It would also offer visitors to the Capital a convenient and enjoyable way to experience the main capital attractions – from Parliament Hill to our national museums, from our stunning shorelines to our majestic monuments.

These many benefits were foreseen when the NCC included the idea of a transit loop in its 2013 Interprovincial Transit Strategy and its 2017 Plan for Canada’s Capital. While it seemed only aspirational then, it seems much more possible now. The Alexandra Bridge replacement project offers the opportunity to ensure a streetcar can be accommodated from the get-go. The STO proposed link into Ottawa could be planned as a first phase of an eventual loop. And at a time when governments are moving to net-zero carbon in the coming decades, electrifying our transportation system has taken on an even more urgent priority.

There would clearly be challenges to meet. The views of the municipalities of Gatineau and Ottawa are critical as key partners, owners of the roadways and public transit operators. Funding for the project would need to be identified. Residents of the capital, affected communities and many other stakeholders would first need to be consulted.

However, if these important considerations can be met, a completed transit loop would be an inheritance to our children of not just better connections, but a more inspirational capital. The current renovation of Parliament Hill, combined with plans for the re-imagining of the buildings on the south side of Wellington Street, will make the Parliamentary Precinct even more spectacular. A tree-lined boulevard that prioritizes people over cars and offers a place to appreciate the splendour and importance of the surrounding buildings and spaces would enhance every visiting Canadian’s experience of their capital.

The Supporters of the Loop have challenged all of us to use this moment to pursue a project that would achieve an even better Capital for residents and visitors alike. For our part, challenge accepted.

Tobi Nussbaum is CEO of the National Capital Commission.

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/nussba...gion-loop-is-an-idea-whose-time-has-come

[Acajack]

The NCC throwing its hat in the ring sounds like a possible game-changer.

I wonder if Tobi Nussbaum talked to anyone above his head before writing that?

Sorry if this has been mentioned already, but a downtown loop (possibly 100% NCC/federal-funded) opens the door for a West Gatineau system that ends in Vieux-Hull at a transfer point with the loop, and also due to potential reduced cost onus on Quebec and Gatineau, a rail-only solution on both the north and south corridors chosen by the STO. (I.e. they might not have to choose between the two and have one tram, one BRT.)

[J.OT13]

I'm hoping that Nussbaum's (and the NCC's?) endorsement is what propels this proposal forward. As Tobi states, the STO can pursue their plan as scheduled and the remainder of the loop can be tacked-on at a later date with the completion of the new Alexandra Bridge.

[RuralCitizen]

Do we actually need a loop to achieve "loop" transportation in the core?

If the Aylmer line crossed Alexandra Bridge to Rideau, and the Rapibus line crossed the POW Bridge, we would essentially have a "loop" with 3 intersections. One in Hull and 2 along the confederation line.

Other than the tourists, I wonder how many users would need to circulate from core to core? I think most transit users departure point will come from outside the cores to cross the river in either directions. It's not like a transfer is an issue, there would be one either way.

[Harley613]

So with a downtown loop, to get to the airport from my house in the Plateau, I'd get on the Plateau spur tram to Chemin d'Aylmer, transfer to the Aylmer-Downtown Gatineau tram to downtown Gatineau, transfer to the loop tram, get off in downtown Ottawa, transfer to the Confederation line, get off at Bayview, transfer to the Trillium Line, get off at South Keys, transfer to the Airport Spur, get off at the airport. Six trains, compared to two buses today. That's absolutely wild. I wonder if there is even a place in New York City from which you would take six different public transportation vehicles to get to JFK, La Guardia or Newark.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by RuralCitizen

Do we actually need a loop to achieve "loop" transportation in the core?

If the Aylmer line crossed Alexandra Bridge to Rideau, and the Rapibus line crossed the POW Bridge, we would essentially have a "loop" with 3 intersections. One in Hull and 2 along the confederation line.

Other than the tourists, I wonder how many users would need to circulate from core to core? I think most transit users departure point will come from outside the cores to cross the river in either directions. It's not like a transfer is an issue, there would be one either way.

Something that's not talked about enough is that the loop essentially doubles the downtown capacity and it makes the overall operations much smoother. Instead of having all trains (say a maximum of 30 trains per hour) head into Ottawa via the Portage Bridge, arrive at O'Connor or Elgin (depending on the chosen option, surface vs tunnel) and then have to switch tracks to turn around, we could have 30 trains cross each bridge (60 total) and continue through the system. This will especially be useful if/when the RapiBus is converted and plugged into the loop.