TCH east of Nipigon (La route transcanadienne à l'est de Nipigon)

[Dengler Avenue]

I think when they decide to widen the 401 they should just rip up the Lakeshore East tracks.

If you think the FN will ignore it, just look at what is happened with the E&N on Vancouver Island.

As always, your comparison looks valid (and understandable) on the surface but invalid upon further probe, and I’m finally tired of them. LSE has high volumes but HCR barely sees trains on it. Also I don’t know what happened to Island Rail and FN.

I’m gonna say something real harsh here: Where economy of scale makes it hard to justify a big project, expect us to cut corners. That’s why twinned and divided Thunder Bay Expressway will have houses abutting it.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

As always, your comparison looks valid (and understandable) on the surface but invalid upon further probe, and I’m finally tired of them. LSE has high volumes but HCR barely sees trains on it. Also I don’t know what happened to Island Rail and FN.

I’m gonna say something real harsh here: Where economy of scale makes it hard to justify a big project, expect us to cut corners. That’s why twinned and divided Thunder Bay Expressway will have houses abutting it.

The FN along the E&N have prevented the line from being abandoned or have a rail trail beside it or instead of it. I know of several FN along it, including the one near SSM that forced the province to put an interchange in when the 4 lanes were built. I would expect nothing less from the ones along it.

Reality is, 4 lanes between SSM and Sudbury will not happen in our lifetimes. Getting 4 lanes to Sudbury from Ottawa within our lifetimes would be a stretch.

[Dengler Avenue]

Okay, if the FN’s insist that HCR stay intact, a takeover by ONR is likely.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Okay, if the FN’s insist that HCR stay intact, a takeover by ONR is likely.

It would be better to think that any negotiations to change things would be difficult. It is better it stays as a rail line than try to build a highway on it.

[Dengler Avenue]

I thought that modifying the rail ROW wouldn't require negotiation with FN's because it's by definition outside of their territory. I guess not.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I thought that modifying the rail ROW wouldn't require negotiation with FN's because it's by definition outside of their territory. I guess not.

Everything within their territory is theirs. It would be like if I want to paint your front door. I can, but there would be a good legal challenge there.

[Dengler Avenue]

Only a tiny bit of HCR is within Mississagi River 8 though. Theoretically, if I swing the freeway a bit further south, it's possible to completely bypass the FN (though taking a golf course out will be bad optics, lol).
Likewise, it's not in Rankins 15D either. It (the HCR ROW) only abuts it. Really, the only issue I can see is that they will protest to keep the tracks intact. The tracks, except for the bit that's in Mississagi River 8, doesn't go through either.
I can only speak for these 2 though.

[F. Lionel]

Lots of activity along 11/17 between Superior Shores and Dorion and again between Hurkett and Red Rock. Power line moves, brush removal, and building removal. The old gas station at Dorion had its gas tanks removed finally.

I've heard from some close to the situation that the reviews of these projects launched by the incoming Ford government have come to an end and the expansion projects are finally going to tender.

It's about time.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by F. Lionel

Lots of activity along 11/17 between Superior Shores and Dorion and again between Hurkett and Red Rock. Power line moves, brush removal, and building removal. The old gas station at Dorion had its gas tanks removed finally.

I've heard from some close to the situation that the reviews of these projects launched by the incoming Ford government have come to an end and the expansion projects are finally going to tender.

It's about time.

Woohoo! Well keep in mind, though, that PC is using the twinning the Thunder Bay - Nipigon Corridor as an economic kickstarter. Maybe that’s why the government has ended its review. It’s probably same thing with twinning Highway 69.
Anyway, if you have time, take a look at the map in my signature. I was working on a workable proposal of TCH twinning from late April to late September. (I prefer to keep it all on the 17 though.) I’m curious what you think about Nipigon Bypass (3 proposals).

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by F. Lionel

Lots of activity along 11/17 between Superior Shores and Dorion and again between Hurkett and Red Rock. Power line moves, brush removal, and building removal. The old gas station at Dorion had its gas tanks removed finally.

I've heard from some close to the situation that the reviews of these projects launched by the incoming Ford government have come to an end and the expansion projects are finally going to tender.

It's about time.

Will this mean the entire section between Thunder Bay and the Nipigon bridge will be 4 lanes?

[Dengler Avenue]

It may well mean just that. As I said, Highway 69 twinning and Highway 11 - 17 twinning are for economic kick-starters.

[F. Lionel]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Will this mean the entire section between Thunder Bay and the Nipigon bridge will be 4 lanes?

There will still be a few stretches that will be 2 lanes: Pearl Lake to Superior Shores (complete choke point for Canada with no alternate route) and Dorion Loop East to Hurkett East (some partial choke at Coldwater Creek and a complete choke at Wolf River). But the big choke points at Black Sturgeon, Pearl, and Ouimet Canyon would all be eliminated. And the CP overpass at Ouimet would no longer be a white knuckle experience.

And it will just be a more pleasant driving experience for those of us who make the commute daily. AND it is going to definitely be an economic driver. Just like the east-west tie in line.

[F. Lionel]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Anyway, if you have time, take a look at the map in my signature. I was working on a workable proposal of TCH twinning from late April to late September. (I prefer to keep it all on the 17 though.) I’m curious what you think about Nipigon Bypass (3 proposals).

Your proposed routes make a lot of sense on the map but the reality of that situation is frustrating. The south route passes quite close to the Hospital and the Helicopter airspace, not to mention the expense of acquiring all the property from businesses and residential owners. The North route is my preferred route but the terrain on that edge is far more exposed Canadian Shield. The cost of construction there would be very expensive but, ultimately, cheaper than the south route. There is also very little infrastructure to relocate on that side as well. The third route right through the middle is easiest to complete, easiest to sell to residents, slowest for traffic speeds, and the worst compromise in my mind. It will really solve none of the issues.

[Dengler Avenue]

Oops, I forgot to provide some contexts.
(1) The underlying assumption is that the entire divided 4 lanes will be a freeway. That said, access will only be via interchanges most of the time or RIRO's in some cases. Whether or not it is ever realistic is a different matter.
(2) MTO intends to widen the current stretch of 11-17 through Nipigon's business area from 2 to 5 lanes (including a center turning lane).

The south route passes quite close to the Hospital and the Helicopter airspace, not to mention the expense of acquiring all the property from businesses and residential owners.

In North Bay, the Bypass (undivided 4 lanes) also gets very close to the hospital, in fact, even closer than this proposal will be to Nipigon Hospital. It seems that MTO will just add a median barrier there and call it a day...? (@swimmer_spe do you know?) But who knows, maybe the future freeway there will be aligned slightly to the south.
My thought is this: If the freeway's close enough to the hospital (without getting too close, that is), if any crap happens on the freeway, the ambulances can respond in no time.
As for the airspace, I just measured: There should be 100 m between this proposed alignment and the airspace. In Markham, the minimal distance between Buttonville Airport and Highway 404 is only 85 m. Unless helicopters require more sightlines, I guess this won't be too big of an issue?
Property-wise, this proposal will also have Highway 585 extended further south to Maata's Road and an interchange between 585 and the bypass. I guess the properties can be relocated to 585 extension (to appease the town)?
I heard (was it from you actually?) that the town fought tooth and nail to keep the bypass option off the table, so I was simply trying to propose something where the businesses along the current route remain visible to travellers on the bypass.

The North route is my preferred route but the terrain on that edge is far more exposed Canadian Shield. The cost of construction there would be very expensive but, ultimately, cheaper than the south route.

Lol, I agree that this route is the cleanest. Terrain seems only harsh on the east end of the business strip, but sometimes it may help (i.e. if flyover ramps need constructing). I just fear that business owners from 585 to the beginning (or end) of the divided 4 lanes will complain due of lack of visibility.

The third route right through the middle is easiest to complete, easiest to sell to residents, slowest for traffic speeds, and the worst compromise in my mind. It will really solve none of the issues.

Now, finally, this one.
The current ROW through the business area doesn't seem sufficient to accommodate another 3 lanes, so MTO will need to move abutting properties back a bit.* I'm curious what the width of the future ROW will be (particularly, whether there will be sufficient right shoulder for both directions). If it's 24 m in general (and 32 m around Highway 585), it's possible to just add service roads on both sides, put in a median barrier all the way to Nipigon bridge, build an interchange at Highway 585, and call it a day.**

* @F. Lionel do you know the approximate route of the proposed freeway between Kakabeka Falls and Shabaqua Corners? (@vid can only confirm the route between Thunder Bay and Kakabeka Falls.) I suspect that, between Kakabeka Falls and Mokomon, MTO will simply move the properties abutting the current highway back, add service roads, and twin and grade-separate the highway. It's not that uncommon a practice (though people hate it lol).
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/four-laning-shabaqua-kakabeka-1.3415119

** Disclaimer: I am no road engineer. It simply seems to me that a ROW of 24 m (32 m around interchanges) will suffice unless drainage's problematic.

*Phew* That was a long post.

[F. Lionel]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

* @F. Lionel do you know the approximate route of the proposed freeway between Kakabeka Falls and Shabaqua Corners? (@vid can only confirm the route between Thunder Bay and Kakabeka Falls.) I suspect that, between Kakabeka Falls and Mokomon, MTO will simply move the properties abutting the current highway back, add service roads, and twin and grade-separate the highway. It's not that uncommon a practice (though people hate it lol).
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/four-laning-shabaqua-kakabeka-1.3415119

Honestly I don't ever remember seeing an alignment map for the extension. I do recall reading a report about transitioning the highway through Kakabeka into a regional road once the highway was moved. There was a map somewhere in the report that showed the new alignment moving off the current 11/17 well to the north.

Grade separation is probably NOT going to happen out there. There was only one grade separation out of the 16 possible (and it wasn't even the highest traffic intersection) along what has already been twinned. It will all get bumped off down the road another 20-45 years minimum.

There seems to be a lot of unknowns in terms of where the road actually is going and I don't know any of the landowners near enough to the potential corridor to ask if anyone has approached them or if they've seen anything even semi-official.

I'm going to try and get a peak at the official designs for the highway at Ouimet this week or next if they have them on display at the township office.

[Dengler Avenue]

I actually have the proposed route between Pass Lake Road and Nipigon on that map too based on deductions from all updated official documents. Let’s see if I’ve gotten most of the route right lol. (Obviously, EDR’s and interchanges are my own addition. I’m just trying to make it a divided freeway with a speed limit of 110 kph instead of the current miserable 90 kph.)
I find it funny that the newer proposal will have the 4 lanes go right through Pearl by Shuniah Fire Station...

As for Shabaqua Freeway beyond Kakabeka Falls, I’ll just leave that as “Possible MTO Proposal” for the next while then.

Ps: I can see Highway 527 get an interchange then Pass Lake Road. In the latter case, it makes accessing Flying-J easier and it also reduces that 6% slope on Pass Lake Road itself; while we’re at it, we can also build the access road to the properties abutting the divided highway. It’s probably not worth the cost, but I feel that Gravelle’s high-profile enough to pull something off.

[Dengler Avenue]

#tbt http://www.petawawapostlive.ca/stories_site/december/december8/notimelineforhwyexpansion.html
I just chanced upon this.

As such, Emon said the local and provincial economy would benefit greatly from a four-lane highway. According to the Kawartha Lakes CFDC (KLCFDC) Eastern Ontario Transportation Needs Analysis the projected economic impact of widening Highway 17 between Arnprior and North Bay includes a return on investment ratio of 2.5 and an increase to the gross domestic product (GDP) of $7,196,900,000.

This figure caught my attention.
I wonder what that ratio is now, 4 (and counting) years later.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

#tbt http://www.petawawapostlive.ca/stories_site/december/december8/notimelineforhwyexpansion.html
I just chanced upon this.

This figure caught my attention.
I wonder what that ratio is now, 4 (and counting) years later.

I sure would love to figure out how they came up with that number.

Boy howdy that's a big return on investment for a region that doesn't produce much GDP.

The GDP number is believable, because the expansion will cost several billion dollars unto itself. By definition, government spending money increases GDP - you could borrow $7b and spend it on people digging holes and filling them in and it will still register as GDP. Whether it accomplishes anything is another question.

I've found Kawartha Lakes' report on Highway 7, but don't know why they care about Highway 17, as it's nowhere near there.

Edit: found it!

The report in question

[Dengler Avenue]

For me, expecting the number to be below 1 or at best slightly above 1 (not like 20% above), a ratio larger than 2 indeed had me checking my eyesight too, especially because I was reading this at quarter past 12 am.

On a tangent note, this is what I've been observing with Highway 400 from Crown Hill to Waubaushene (aka the portion in Simcoe).
It isn't so busy that 120 kph is no longer attainable, but it is busy enough that, if there were only 2 lanes instead of 4, traffic would have been very miserable. When I was driving back from Port Severn after sunset today, 400 NB was just a stream of lights from Highway 11 to Highway 93. I was like, "Holy smokes, I could see that for Highway 11. I didn't expect 400 to get this 'busy' as well."
Well, beyond Waubaushene, though, traffic finally drops.

I don't think that this is a far-fetched scenario if both provincial and federal governments decide to take 417 to at least North Bay.
The portion of 417 from Renfrew to Pembroke will be like the part of 400 from Crown Hills to Waubaushene. With enough demand/traffic from Ottawa, I find it tenable to say "Build it and they will come" for this section.
Next, the stretch from Pembroke to Rolphton will be like Muskoka to 400. There are quite a bit of cottages on both sides of Ottawa River.
Lol, I actually forgot what I was gonna say for the section from Rolphton to North Bay...

Figure-wise, $10M/km seems a bit optimistic.

Also, getting 335 km of freeway done in 30 years, averaging 11 km/year, would have been ambitious. Then again, the figure was made in the 70s, when nobody foresaw the collapse of U.S.S.R. in 1991. Maybe after that, Canada was like, "Phew, democracy won, let's move on. Forget about making CFB Petawawa well connected."
=====
By the way, in other news, Provincial and Federal Governments are spending $70.65M to twin 8.5 km of 11-17 near Nipigon. $8.31M/km sounds about right.

=====
Lastly, with many people migrating to the Town of Renfrew, I now think that the extension will survive a change of government because killing it will piss too many off.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

For me, expecting the number to be below 1 or at best slightly above 1 (not like 20% above), a ratio larger than 2 indeed had me checking my eyesight too, especially because I was reading this at quarter past 12 am.

On a tangent note, this is what I've been observing with Highway 400 from Crown Hill to Waubaushene (aka the portion in Simcoe).
It isn't so busy that 120 kph is no longer attainable, but it is busy enough that, if there were only 2 lanes instead of 4, traffic would have been very miserable. When I was driving back from Port Severn after sunset today, 400 NB was just a stream of lights from Highway 11 to Highway 93. I was like, "Holy smokes, I could see that for Highway 11. I didn't expect 400 to get this 'busy' as well."
Well, beyond Waubaushene, though, traffic finally drops.

I don't think that this is a far-fetched scenario if both provincial and federal governments decide to take 417 to at least North Bay.
The portion of 417 from Renfrew to Pembroke will be like the part of 400 from Crown Hills to Waubaushene. With enough demand/traffic from Ottawa, I find it tenable to say "Build it and they will come" for this section.
Next, the stretch from Pembroke to Rolphton will be like Muskoka to 400. There are quite a bit of cottages on both sides of Ottawa River.
Lol, I actually forgot what I was gonna say for the section from Rolphton to North Bay...

=====
By the way, in other news, Provincial and Federal Governments are spending $70.65M to twin 8.5 km of 11-17 near Nipigon. $8.31M/km sounds about right.

=====
Lastly, with many people migrating to the Town of Renfrew, I now think that the extension will survive a change of government because killing it will piss too many off.

I could see extensions of the 417 in the Ottawa Valley and expansion of the 400 north of Barrie, but the long-term fiscal problems of both the province and feds make me doubt anything more. It's not even a good shovel-ready stimulus project as basically nothing's done for it yet, except for maybe the bit from Arnprior to Renfrew.

The drive between Mattawa and Deep River is one of the more empty stretches of long-haul driving I've done. There are so many better places to spend money than on that woefully underused stretch.