Barrhaven LRT | Proposed

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

Do you we have any studies or estimates on how much it would cost to expend the Trillium Line deeper into Riverside South or even Barrhaven ? Isn't there already a proposed path for the Trillium Line, I think I saw something like that a few months back ?

Its in the existing TMP for the most part. Here is a map of the current ultimate plan.

• Red is the Confederation Line extension to Barrhaven Centre Station.
• Green is the end of the Trillium Line at Limebank Station.
• Blue is the various other transit corridors in Barrhaven/Riverside South. At this time all of them are slated for some form of BRT.

Blue can be fully built-out relatively affordably with at-grade crossings and interim use of existing infrastructure including the Vimy Bridge. IMO the blue BRT routes should the priority for Barrhaven following Stage 2. The Strandherd/Earl Armstrong corridor is already congested at times and will only get worse as Riverside South and Barrhaven continue to develop. The Transitway along the Greenbank Realignment is also necessary as the existing crossings of the Jock River are also congested and will become terrible given the massive amount of subdivisions approved south of the Jock River.

Good connections between the existing SW Transitway and the Trillium Line will ensure good overall reliability of rapid transit in Barrhaven and will build inter-suburb and intra-suburb ridership - all at a low cost.

Extending the trillium line further along the blue corridor would significantly raise the cost due to the need to grade separate numerous collectors and the river. I think its existing terminus is fine and it should stay there for the conceivable future. The blue east-west BRT route will still give folks in Barrhaven rapid access to the Trillium Line should they want to go to destinations such as the Airport, South Keys, Carleton, or even the new Civic Hospital.

[Mikeed]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

Do you we have any studies or estimates on how much it would cost to expend the Trillium Line deeper into Riverside South or even Barrhaven ? Isn't there already a proposed path for the Trillium Line, I think I saw something like that a few months back ?

The CDP for Riverside South has Line 2 ending at Limebank, in the heart of the eventual town centre.

[TheMatth69]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Extending the trillium line further along the blue corridor would significantly raise the cost due to the need to grade separate numerous collectors and the river. I think its existing terminus is fine and it should stay there for the conceivable future. The blue east-west BRT route will still give folks in Barrhaven rapid access to the Trillium Line should they want to go to destinations such as the Airport, South Keys, Carleton, or even the new Civic Hospital.

Then I may ask what was the point of elevating Limebank station over Limebank Road if it's not to extend it at some point in the future ? The initial plan was to build a Terminus Station at Road level with no real possibility to extend the line passed Limebank.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

Then I may ask what was the point of elevating Limebank station over Limebank Road if it's not to extend it at some point in the future ? The initial plan was to build a Terminus Station at Road level with no real possibility to extend the line passed Limebank.

Less complicated then building road-over-rail. The original Limebank concept renders didn't really lend themselves to extension anyway.

[rocketphish]

Barrhaven LRT extension pegged at $3B
Plan includes bridges over Via Rail tracks at site of 2013 tragedy, but no funding yet

Kate Porter · CBC News
Posted: Oct 25, 2020 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: October 25



The City of Ottawa has a plan to extend light rail to Barrhaven and finally separate Via Rail tracks from transit and traffic, but it pegs the cost at $3 billion and doesn't yet know where that money will come from.

The design would also require tearing down 120 privately owned affordable rental units to make way for an elevated track between Algonquin College and the Nepean Sportsplex, something that concerns those residents and their Knoxdale-Merivale councillor.

An environmental assessment headed to transportation committee on Nov. 2 lays out the route for 10 kilometres of twin tracks and seven stations south to Barrhaven.

A study in 2018 already laid the groundwork for the other part of Stage 3: an 11-kilometre extension to Kanata and Stittsville estimated to cost $1.85 billion.

Much of the Barrhaven line would use existing Transitway, convert four existing transit stations, and would end at a future downtown Barrhaven.

The plan also includes three new bridges over the Via Rail line at a cost of $400 million. That would eliminate the level crossings at Woodroffe Avenue, Fallowfield Road, and at the Southwest Transitway, the site of a tragic collision between a double-decker OC Transpo bus and Via train that killed six people in 2013.



"Safety upgrades at our Via crossings as part of this investment cannot be measured," wrote Barrhaven Coun. Jan Harder in her comments on the staff report.

She called the environmental study for Stage 3 a "key piece" for taking LRT to fast-growing Barrhaven.

It also includes a garage for eight double-vehicle trains at Highbury Park and Greenbank Road, at a site previously considered for future affordable housing.

But the first segment that could someday be built, from Baseline Station to Nepean Sportplex, involves building elevated tracks and three new stations at Tallwood, Knoxdale and the busy recreation centre.

Staff say taking the train below ground level would be too risky, expensive and take longer to build.



Not only would water and sewage lines need to be moved, but the water table is high in that location and construction carries the risk of settlement issues for up to 640 nearby houses and commercial buildings, staff say.

But elevated tracks would require private property and affect 120 rental units. Advocates for the residents in Manor Village, which is now owned by Smart Living Properties, have been petitioning against losing affordable rental homes.

"There's an extremely long runway before the shovels are going to hit the ground," said Coun. Keith Egli, who has been told any construction would be at least seven or eight years away.

He knows that's no comfort to those now living with uncertainty, but says city staff are sympathetic and want to work with housing and private partners to give those residents places to move.

"There's a will to find a way to come up with options and we have some time to do that," said Egli. He's also not entirely convinced the below-grade options in the Woodroffe corridor need to be off the table.

The Baseline to Nepean Sportsplex section, along with the rail bridges, has been estimated to cost $2 billion, while the southern section to Barrhaven would cost another billion dollars.

Ottawa officials have stated in the past their hope to have the provincial and federal governments each cover half the cost of Stage 3. For now, there's no promise of funding.

And even if COVID-19 shifts travel patterns as people work from home, Egli said the Barrhaven line would still help thousands of people get to Centrepointe Theatre, Algonquin College and other places using methods other than their private vehicles.

"It's not all about going downtown, necessarily," said Egli, who pointed out councillors this week endorsed a strategy for dramatically cutting greenhouse gas emissions.

"LRT and the train ... are an important part of making us a greener city overall."



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...ment-1.5774286

[J.OT13]

And even if COVID-19 shifts travel patterns as people work from home, Egli said the Barrhaven line would still help thousands of people get to Centrepointe Theatre, Algonquin College and other places using methods other than their private vehicles.

Yes, just as effectively as the existing bus service.

[J.OT13]

We should be holding off on planning and requesting funds for extremely expensive transit projects to the far-flung suburbs until Covid-19 has been dealt with and new travel patterns have been determined (with WFH inevitably gaining popularity). 

Cheaper projects like the Baseline and Carling BRTs should be given precedents in the interim to serve high density nodes currently being developed, and connecting rapid transit lines already in existence or u/c. The Kanata North BRT and better bus routes to serve Kanata employment nodes could also be worthwhile. The City has always focused (at least in the past 50 years) on suburb to downtown service, but Kanata, and at a lesser extend Barrhaven, are fairly self-sufficient and need their own local transit service. 

The City also needs to start looking at proper transit priority for the Bank and Rideau-Montreal corridors where people depend on transit outside of rush hour.

A few projects of a few dozen or hundred million can go a long way, maybe even further than the billions to convert existing bus routes to Kanata and Barrhaven.

[Acajack]

Unless there is something I don't understand, how is an LRT down Woodroffe to Barrhaven 3 billion when the entire Confederation Line with a downtown tunnel and lines out to the east and west ends cost 2.1 billion?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Unless there is something I don't understand, how is an LRT down Woodroffe to Barrhaven 3 billion when the entire Confederation Line with a downtown tunnel and lines out to the east and west ends cost 2.1 billion?

That's the point I was trying to make on post 309 and 318. The estimates for the Barrhaven extension are far more expensive than the much more complicated Stage 1, with the tunnel, three full subway stations, the heavy maintenance and control yards (as opposed to the Greenbank light maintenance and storage yard). It's also far more expensive than Stage 2 which includes extensive cut-and-cover tunneling and re-building parts of a highway.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That's the point I was trying to make on post 309 and 318. The estimates for the Barrhaven extension are far more expensive than the much more complicated Stage 1, with the tunnel, three full subway stations, the heavy maintenance and control yards (as opposed to the Greenbank light maintenance and storage yard). It's also far more expensive than Stage 2 which includes extensive cut-and-cover tunneling and re-building parts of a highway.

OK, so it's not just me. Thanks.

[Acajack]

Gatineau has also costed 26 km of LRT for the western part of the city at 2.1 billion.

Perhaps the Barrhaven estimate is simply more realistic? These things often have significant cost overruns.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Gatineau has also costed 26 km of LRT for the western part of the city at 2.1 billion.

Perhaps the Barrhaven estimate is simply more realistic? These things often have significant cost overruns.

I suspect that Gatineau's estimate today is way off, especially if they end up choosing the Sparks tunnel option. If I were to guess, I'd say Gatineau's proposal could be (if they chose the all tram option) $3B with the Wellington route or $3.8B with the Sparks tunnel, so $115 million/km or $146 million/km compared to Barrhaven's $300+ million/km.

It's hard to compare since Gatineau will be mostly surface like ION ($45 million/km) or Edmonton's Valley Line ($137million/km) while Barrhaven would be a fully grade separated metro.

But again, McC brought up Surrey at $188 million/km.

The only project that comes close to the Barrhaven estimate is the Crosstown in Toronto at $279 million/km, but that includes 10km of 19km that's underground.

Calgary's Green Line is estimated at 232.5 million/km, including a 4km, 3 station tunnel and a major new bridge across the Bow River.

[J.OT13]

Bring back Ottawa's projects so far for comparison.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

$3B for 9.7 kilometers, $400 million of that for three grade separations. $309 million per kilometer.

Compare that to Stage 1, $2.1B for 12.5 kilometers, about $600 million of the total for a 2.5 km tunnel with three full subway stations. $168 million per kilometer.

Or Stage 2 (Confederation only), $3B for 27 kilometers, and about $1B of that on a 3km cut-and-cover tunnel. $111 million per kilometer

I wonder how the estimates of the Kanata extension, at $1.85B for 11 km stands today. $168 million per kilometer

[Kitchissippi]

Stage 1 and 2 also had trainsets factored in. Is there even mention of additional vehicles that need to be purchased for this extension?

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

Then I may ask what was the point of elevating Limebank station over Limebank Road if it's not to extend it at some point in the future ? The initial plan was to build a Terminus Station at Road level with no real possibility to extend the line passed Limebank.

Elevating the Trillium Line over Limebank Road provided the following benefits (that I can think of):

1. Simpler and (possibly cheaper) to construct.
2. Much better bus circulation and bus transfer oppurtunities beneath the elevated structure.
3. Rail overpass results in less retaining walls vs. road overpass, which means less impact on surrounding development land.
4. Possible to extend in the future.

For point#4 - just because it is possible to extend in the future (which I supported maintaining that possibility), doesn't mean it should be a priority in the near or medium term.

To me, there are only two advantage to extending:

1. Extended to a terminus at Riverview P&R would make that P&R waaay more useful. However, counterpoint is the City should just redevelop that P&R into TOD if it suffers from chronic low-utilization.
2. The current terminus station at Limebank is a side-platform terminus, which I really dislike. When I talked to transportation planners at the POH for the Trillium Line station they didn't even understand why side-platform terminuses are a negative - they said "there will be signage telling you what platform the trains will service", "it will be idling for 6-7 minutes so you'll be able to see what platform it is on", etc... but what happens if you are half-way up the stairs to one platform and the train leaves only for you to have to walk down the stairs and up the other stairs to go to the other platform. Anyway, pet peeve, hate side-platform terminus stations.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Unless there is something I don't understand, how is an LRT down Woodroffe to Barrhaven 3 billion when the entire Confederation Line with a downtown tunnel and lines out to the east and west ends cost 2.1 billion?

Except it isn't $3B. As I said in post #334, it is only $1.6B.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Elevating the Trillium Line over Limebank Road provided the following benefits (that I can think of):

1. Simpler and (possibly cheaper) to construct.
2. Much better bus circulation and bus transfer oppurtunities beneath the elevated structure.
3. Rail overpass results in less retaining walls vs. road overpass, which means less impact on surrounding development land.
4. Possible to extend in the future.

For point#4 - just because it is possible to extend in the future (which I supported maintaining that possibility), doesn't mean it should be a priority in the near or medium term.

To me, there are only two advantage to extending:

1. Extended to a terminus at Riverview P&R would make that P&R waaay more useful. However, counterpoint is the City should just redevelop that P&R into TOD if it suffers from chronic low-utilization.
2. The current terminus station at Limebank is a side-platform terminus, which I really dislike. When I talked to transportation planners at the POH for the Trillium Line station they didn't even understand why side-platform terminuses are a negative - they said "there will be signage telling you what platform the trains will service", "it will be idling for 6-7 minutes so you'll be able to see what platform it is on", etc... but what happens if you are half-way up the stairs to one platform and the train leaves only for you to have to walk down the stairs and up the other stairs to go to the other platform. Anyway, pet peeve, hate side-platform terminus stations.

A key difference between Limebank (and Bayview) compared to say Tunney's, is that the "other" platform will be used sparingly. More often than not, only one platform needs to be used on the Trillium Line because the frequencies are low enough.

[On Edge]

Those pics of the project are hilarious, new train lines and gleaming new stations in the midst of farmland with the odd cluster of tract housing in the distance.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

A key difference between Limebank (and Bayview) compared to say Tunney's, is that the "other" platform will be used sparingly. More often than not, only one platform needs to be used on the Trillium Line because the frequencies are low enough.

Yes - true, I still wish they (Limebank especially since it had no existing constraints) were centre platform in case of future frequency increases.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Yes, just as effectively as the existing bus service.

So you think a fully grade separated train with a limited number of stops would be just as effective as this (the current "transitway" between Baseline and the Nepean Sportsplex)?



NOTE: the current bus also has 6 stops along that 2.5km (David, Tallwood, Norice, Knoxdale, Majestic, and West Hunt Club), which averages to a stop every 360m. With the train, it would be reduced to 2 (Tallwood and Knoxdale), or a stop every 830m.