Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

It’s more to do with the fact that the entire E-Line extension is currently having the detailed design phase done together as a single project, but the M-Line extension beyond Arbutus is nothing more than a general idea. No exact routes selected, exact station placements, etc...

The consultation for the M-Line west of Arbutus will probably be brutal
- especially if they want to continue straight on Broadway past Alma (instead of 10th) to hit the Jericho lands.

[jlove390]

[bloomtronzero]

What do we figure the state of the Columbia-Production Way fork will be when the Expo extends East? Won't it be kind of awkward timing trains for it?

[officedweller]

The computers will handle it.
it could drop to one in 4 trains going to Production Way (I think it's 1 in 3 now?)
Eventually there could even be more complexities with trains short-turning at Metrotown, or shuttling on the SoF leg.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Production Way already takes 1 in every 3 trains. So chances are it'll be the same as usual, except that now half those trains go to Langley.

So if you're at, let's say, Metrotown, the sign'll read:

Production Way: now
King George: 2 min
Langley City: 4 min

Rinse and repeat.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Production Way already takes 1 in every 3 trains. So chances are it'll be the same as usual, except that now half those trains go to Langley.

So if you're at, let's say, Metrotown, the sign'll read:

Rinse and repeat.

I'm sure that the math checks out but it would seem kind of redundant to me that you would have a King George train. So I'm just kind of curious as to why you are assuming an Expo line train will short turn at King George? Does it have anything to do with the inventory or the fact that Translink won't be able to keep up with our current frequencies on the line? Or are you assuming that the ridership demand would warrant short-turn trains?

I don't know, I just feel like it would not resonate as logical to the average passenger taking a train (from whatever station) trying to get 140th station or beyond since it's an extension of the expo line and not a separate metro line. Especially since we don't have regular short turn trains (AFAIK) on the Millennium line, even after the Evergreen extension opened. We have reduced train lengths however the few times I have ridden the Millennium line, it seems that its ridership is back to levels where they could be accommodated by the 4 car trains (and it will be needed after the Millennium extension opens up to Arbutus).

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by scryer

...I'm just kind of curious as to why you are assuming an Expo line train will short turn at King George?

Short turning alternate trains or buses is a classic solution to the issue of providing capacity where the demand drops off toward the end of the line. It means you can provide better service on the innermost portions of the line where the demand is greatest. This is because transit systems are always resource constrained - there are never enough trains/buses/operators to provide the highest level of service on all sections of all routes.

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by scryer

I'm sure that the math checks out but it would seem kind of redundant to me that you would have a King George train. So I'm just kind of curious as to why you are assuming an Expo line train will short turn at King George? Does it have anything to do with the inventory or the fact that Translink won't be able to keep up with our current frequencies on the line? Or are you assuming that the ridership demand would warrant short-turn trains?

I don't know, I just feel like it would not resonate as logical to the average passenger taking a train (from whatever station) trying to get 140th station or beyond since it's an extension of the expo line and not a separate metro line. Especially since we don't have regular short turn trains (AFAIK) on the Millennium line, even after the Evergreen extension opened. We have reduced train lengths however the few times I have ridden the Millennium line, it seems that its ridership is back to levels where they could be accommodated by the 4 car trains (and it will be needed after the Millennium extension opens up to Arbutus).

From what I can tell it's the ridership modelling makes the assumption that running trains at the mainline frequencies would be excessive the against initial demand, and as the planning assumption is for all trains to through-run to the existing Expo Line, the intention is to maintain the longer trains and higher capacity per train. Therefore the planning assumption is every second train from King George at opening, for a 6 min peak frequency and an 8-10 off-peak frequency.

While intervals are lower than the rest of the region, for me this isn't actually entirely unreasonable for a few reasons:

1. The lower frequency in the planning assumption isn't specifically because it's Surrey/Langley and it isn't because of a lack of confidence in ridership.
   • We recently found that there are similar planning assumptions in place for a North Shore SkyTrain extension as an Expo Line branch, with only every 3rd train going to Lonsdale.
2. The line will feature wider stop spacing (largely skewed by the Serpentine floodplains crossing) and therefore some of the highest overall speeds in the system, somewhat making up for this.
   • As an example: the Canada Line takes 26 mins to travel 14.5km to Richmond Brighouse every 6 mins; the Expo Line will take 22 mins to travel 16km from King George to Langley. At a service frequency of every 10 mins, the service standard (in terms of maximum overall travel time) is approximately equivalent to what the Canada Line provides from DT Van to DT Richmond.

There's very reasonable basis to run the actual service a bit different from the planning assumptions. That eastern short turn terminus could, for example, be extended to 166 Street in Fleetwood. I've also always pushed the possibility of running shorter trains (i.e. additional 2-car trains) on Surrey Central to Langley runs as a way of boosting service frequency; the build-out of Surrey City Centre by year 2025 should make this seem a lot more reasonable.

Alternatively, the Waterfront to King George short runs could be naturally expanded into another branch (King George to Newton or White Rock Centre).

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by scryer

I'm sure that the math checks out but it would seem kind of redundant to me that you would have a King George train. So I'm just kind of curious as to why you are assuming an Expo line train will short turn at King George? Does it have anything to do with the inventory or the fact that Translink won't be able to keep up with our current frequencies on the line? Or are you assuming that the ridership demand would warrant short-turn trains?

What Daryl said... plus the fact that TransLink's setting up a pocket/side track, so there's a good chance they're planning to dead-end a few trains.

[TransitJack]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

What Daryl said... plus the fact that TransLink's setting up a pocket/side track, so there's a good chance they're planning to dead-end a few trains.

Sounds like when you're waiting on the main branch of Expo on the outbound, saw at New West OB, the new "next train" display will show up to three different destinations: Production Way, King George (potentially) and Langley Centre. It might have have been better if they could display a few more lines than the new signs show, since frequencies between each branch vary and at first glance you may not see all the destinations on the one screen.

[Express691]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

Sounds like when you're waiting on the main branch of Expo on the outbound, saw at New West OB, the new "next train" display will show up to three different destinations: Production Way, King George (potentially) and Langley Centre. It might have have been better if they could display a few more lines than the new signs show, since frequencies between each branch vary and at first glance you may not see all the destinations on the one screen.

Format the screen as follows:

King George------------------------Now----9 Min
Production Way-------------------3 min----12 Min
Langley Centre-------------------6 min----15 Min

[superelevation]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

From what I can tell it's the ridership modelling makes the assumption that running trains at the mainline frequencies would be excessive the against initial demand, and as the planning assumption is for all trains to through-run to the existing Expo Line, the intention is to maintain the longer trains and higher capacity per train. Therefore the planning assumption is every second train from King George at opening, for a 6 min peak frequency and an 8-10 off-peak frequency.

While intervals are lower than the rest of the region, for me this isn't actually entirely unreasonable for a few reasons:

1. The lower frequency in the planning assumption isn't specifically because it's Surrey/Langley and it isn't because of a lack of confidence in ridership.
   • We recently found that there are similar planning assumptions in place for a North Shore SkyTrain extension as an Expo Line branch, with only every 3rd train going to Lonsdale.
2. The line will feature wider stop spacing (largely skewed by the Serpentine floodplains crossing) and therefore some of the highest overall speeds in the system, somewhat making up for this.
   • As an example: the Canada Line takes 26 mins to travel 14.5km to Richmond Brighouse every 6 mins; the Expo Line will take 22 mins to travel 16km from King George to Langley. At a service frequency of every 10 mins, the service standard (in terms of maximum overall travel time) is approximately equivalent to what the Canada Line provides from DT Van to DT Richmond.

There's very reasonable basis to run the actual service a bit different from the planning assumptions. That eastern short turn terminus could, for example, be extended to 166 Street in Fleetwood. I've also always pushed the possibility of running shorter trains (i.e. additional 2-car trains) on Surrey Central to Langley runs as a way of boosting service frequency; the build-out of Surrey City Centre by year 2025 should make this seem a lot more reasonable.

Alternatively, the Waterfront to King George short runs could be naturally expanded into another branch (King George to Newton or White Rock Centre).

I wonder if we could get trains up to 100kph, I know what the *listed* max speed and catch up speed is but with a straight shot and sufficient power maybe its possible . . .

[Dengler Avenue]

Skytrain going at highway speed on Fraser Highway? Interesting idea. If any crap happens though, Translink will face some serious lawsuits.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

[scottN]

Originally Posted by superelevation

I wonder if we could get trains up to 100kph, I know what the *listed* max speed and catch up speed is but with a straight shot and sufficient power maybe its possible . . .

I think they are talking about average speed here, which includes the time spent accelerating, decellerating, and dwelling at stations. Expo line average speed is about 43km/h end to end.

On the Langley extension with a straight alignment and somewhat wider stop spacing the average speed will be . . . . 44km/h

[Klazu]

Would it make any sense to have Expo Line run only between Waterfront - Production Way and then gave a separate Surrey Line run between New Westminster and Langley? Would changing trains either at Columbia or New Westminster make any sense for the sake of keeping a schedule?

[Express691]

Re-iterates the point: the difference in speed is less significant especially over smaller distances - you can't just rely on speed alone to speed up service. E.g. To save 10 minutes from 80kph to 100kph requires a greater distance. At this point I think it's faster to skip stops/pass trains to see a significant cut in travel time.

For reference the distance from Waterfront to King George is around 30km.
================
Or you pull off a Tokyo and run a through service through multiple lines. Example: the Sky Access through-service from Narita Airport through the Hokuso Line, Asakusa Subway line and the Keikyu line to Haneda Airport.

[Migrant_Coconut]

With only two tracks, skip-stopping is probably a bad idea... or such a complicated one that we might as well just build HSR between downtown and Surrey and call it a day.

Originally Posted by Klazu

Would it make any sense to have Expo Line run only between Waterfront - Production Way and then gave a separate Surrey Line run between New Westminster and Langley? Would changing trains either at Columbia or New Westminster make any sense for the sake of keeping a schedule?

Not unless you're trying (and failing) to maroon SoF riders heading inward, like the light rail boosters. What you'll probably get is just a whole lot more passengers crowding around the New West platforms and a higher chance of a switching failure.

[Metro-One]

Any idea when to expect an official announcement for this proceeding as a single phased project given the campaign promises made buy the NDP?

[dharper]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Any idea when to expect an official announcement for this proceeding as a single phased project given the campaign promises made buy the NDP?

Probably a few months before the next election.