O-Train Line 1/3 [ Stage 2 | East Extension | Blair to Trim] | U/C

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Its one thing to measure construction schedule on these big ticket items. But moving dirt around and building structures is not the same as getting a train out on a line and commissioning. Wasn't that where the schedule extensions came from in the first phase?

It's unclear what went wrong with Stage 1, schedule wise, but even looking at the state of stations a few months before the initial estimated opening date, or construction in the downtown during Canada150 when the above ground work was supposed to be done, it's clear they were far behind on much more than trains and testing.

After the Rideau sinkhole, we were told the incident would not impact the schedule, until a few years later when they blamed the sinkhole for the delays. It almost looked like they slowed down other works (trains and above ground stations) while they were trying to catch-up with underground work, but by doing that, it delayed everything else. We can see that a lot of the finishing work was rushed. Extremely miss-managed all around.

This time around, even if trains are delayed AGAIN (Line 1, don't know for Line 2), at least they were ordered well in advance so it should not effect the schedule in the long-run, so it's the civic works that will likely be the make-or-break for the project. It's good that the City is (more) on the ball this time around from the get-go.

[Truenorth00]

With East and West opening a year apart, they also don't don't need the whole order of trains immediately. If they get half the order by end 2023, that's good enough. And they most certainly will. Heck, they may have enough trainsets to launch service on CL East by the end of 2021.

The update says of 38 ordered: 12 in production, 2 in testing, 1 in acceptance and 4 accepted. Barring quality issues that is probably over 20 accepted by the end of 2021.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Based on M. Morgan, the Montreal Road overpass the the big indicator of whether or not the contractor is on time for the east-end extension, and so far he seems very confident. For the south end, it's the Stadler Flirts (nothing to do with general construction or SNC). For the west end, it's the cut-and-cover Parkway/Richmond Underground tunnel, but for that he couldn't offer expected timelines and thus, it seems the City is unsure if it's on time or not.

He says that the City has added more safeguards to ensure things are done on time, but so far that seems hit-and-miss IMO.

To add for the Trillium Line (and hopefully not get too far off-topic here), their progress on the Airport Link, reestablishing the rail connection to the NRC facilities, and completion of the extended guideway in general will also be good indicators.

SNC needs to re-open access to those loading docks at the Airport by late fall, and so far it looks like they'll be able to(?)

Not sure when they're supposed to have the link to the NRC facilities open again, but I hope it isn't soon because they only just started work at South Keys.

Then there's the rest of the guideway. IIRC the section between Limebank and Bowesville will basically be the initial test track for the new vehicles, so that'll need to be done by next year along with the rest of the track linking it to Walkley yard. They've already started welding rails, so that's a good start (though maybe that was for the Airport link).

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

With East and West opening a year apart, they also don't don't need the whole order of trains immediately. If they get half the order by end 2023, that's good enough. And they most certainly will. Heck, they may have enough trainsets to launch service on CL East by the end of 2021.

So given the

• original delivery schedule
• delay in the RSA date
• delays due to maintenance problems and covid
• current progress on the new vehicles (from the presentation Tuesday)

I think we should have all 38 new vehicles before the end of next year.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I think we should have all 38 new vehicles before the end of next year.

If given the opportunity to slow acceptance to one train per month, they should take it. They don't need more than 16 trains to launch service on CL East. One train per month would still mean completion of the entire order (38 trains) by Fall 2023, a full 6-12 months before revenue service on CL East.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It's unclear what went wrong with Stage 1, schedule wise, but even looking at the state of stations a few months before the initial estimated opening date, or construction in the downtown during Canada150 when the above ground work was supposed to be done, it's clear they were far behind on much more than trains and testing.

After the Rideau sinkhole, we were told the incident would not impact the schedule, until a few years later when they blamed the sinkhole for the delays. It almost looked like they slowed down other works (trains and above ground stations) while they were trying to catch-up with underground work, but by doing that, it delayed everything else. We can see that a lot of the finishing work was rushed. Extremely miss-managed all around.

This time around, even if trains are delayed AGAIN (Line 1, don't know for Line 2), at least they were ordered well in advance so it should not effect the schedule in the long-run, so it's the civic works that will likely be the make-or-break for the project. It's good that the City is (more) on the ball this time around from the get-go.

This is somewhat the result of the project being a Design, Build, Finance and Maintain. It makes sense to delay work not seen as on the immediate critical path to the last possible moment as long as you don't foresee it delaying your in service date, as the proponent has to pay for carrying the finance for parts of the project completed early.

With the problems around the sinkhole, the project all of a sudden has a lot of uncertainty in it, which throws off timelines and the financial model. With all the additional problems the reputation risk for future projects, and for the future of the delivery model is probably all that is keeping the proponent from exercising whatever options they have to walk away from the stage 1 contract.



As a result of problems in Ottawa, Seattle, and probably elsewhere in the P3 world, Calgary found that since the geotechnical results on its planned tunnel were so bad that proponents weren't going to carry the risk without a huge premium, so much so that it isn't going to be delivered via a P3 anymore.

[J.OT13]

Montreal station.




https://twitter.com/Chris_Livett/status/1308168416667283462

[J.OT13]

Images from a Stage 2 presentation last summer, and a few from this summer.

Jeanne d'Arc:





Montreal:



Place d'Orleans:





Trim:

[J.OT13]

Highway 174 Westbound Traffic Shift West of Montreal Interchange
September 2020

As part of the Stage 2 O-Train Light Rail Transit (LRT) project westbound lanes of Highway 174 will be shifted. This shift is required in order to create enough space for the construction of the new elevated rail bridge that will allow trains to transition from the existing transit alignment on the north side of the highway onto the centre median.

WHAT: Westbound traffic will be shifted south onto the current eastbound highway traffic lanes and completely separated.  174 westbound will remain open with lane reductions during the traffic shift, and that there will be no impact to eastbound traffic.  
 
WHEN:The traffic shift will occur on the weekend of September 26-27.   The shift will be in-place until Spring 2021  
 
WHERE:West of Montreal Road to West of Blair Road, along Highway 174.

ANTICIPATED IMPACTS
Efforts are made to minimize the impact on the local community and motorists during construction.

Motorists should be aware of and adhere to highway traffic control signage and use extra caution as traffic patterns change.

Delays may be expected and as a result motorists and transit users should allow for extra time when travelling through active construction corridors.

The safety of the public and workers is paramount, and we thank you for your patience during construction.

https://mailchi.mp/3bff2e5da472/work-und...tier-parkway-bridge-1048731?e=a999a549a3

See link above for image. I tried to add it to the post, but the size was way over scale. I was unable to create a proper sized image through Imgur for some reason.

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

As a result of problems in Ottawa, Seattle, and probably elsewhere in the P3 world, Calgary found that since the geotechnical results on its planned tunnel were so bad that proponents weren't going to carry the risk without a huge premium, so much so that it isn't going to be delivered via a P3 anymore.

Good. P3 sucks.

[Baybreeze12]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

There's never been any discussion so far as I know for two reasons: (1) the people in that area are poor and thus don't deserve nice things in Watson's Ottawa; and two: (2) the people in that area don't donate to Watson's re-election campaign.

It's the same reason Westboroites get the full buried treatment yet on the East end, Jasmine Crescent doesn't even get a stop even though it's 3km between Blair station and Montreal station.

For what it's worth (though slightly off-topic), I have read that the design of the eastern extension will take into account the possibility for a future infill station at Jasmine Crescent. As to when that happens, your guess is as good as mine.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by Baybreeze12

For what it's worth (though slightly off-topic), I have read that the design of the eastern extension will take into account the possibility for a future infill station at Jasmine Crescent. As to when that happens, your guess is as good as mine.

I think it was here on SSP that I saw a reference to a potential 'Gloucester High School' stop. The LRT tunnels under and into the median (seen in yellow) right between the school and Jasmine Crescent. I wonder if it would make more sense to have a station on the school's property right before the tunnel or a median station right at Jasmine with a pedestrian bridge. I'm thinking the former because it could serve Costco, the school and Jasmine quite well.

jasmine by harley613, on Flickr

[TransitZilla]

^The transition to the median will be elevated, not a tunnel. Construction of this flyover has started and there are pictures on the city website, e.g.:


I'm not quite sure where the Gloucester HS/Jasmine station could be accommodated. When I look at the image below, the most likely spot seems to be south of the BMX park (west of the flyover), where the tracks look to be far enough apart that a centre platform station could be added:

(more images at https://ottawa.ca/en/planning-developmen...n-line-east-extension-spring-2020-update)

[Harley613]

Ahh that makes sense. The BMX park is really the only logical spot for it to go then I guess.

[J.OT13]

Progress along the 174 between Blair and Montreal. Highway detour realignment is complete. Pillars for the flyover are well underway. New highway overpasses at Montreal are built and scheduled to open in November (I could see that happening for eastbound, but I have my doubts westbound).

• Video Link

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Ahh that makes sense. The BMX park is really the only logical spot for it to go then I guess.

Good Day.

....except that several illustrations and mappings have that area between the west end of the flyover and the Blair Rd. overpasses/cloverleafs marked as for the double-ended pocket track between the line tracks.
Which leaves only to the east of the flyover, more towards the baseball diamond area, as more probable (?) for a station reserve.

As always, at this point, we can only wait and see what they are planting where, and by how much !!!

EnJoy!

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

....except that several illustrations and mappings have that area between the west end of the flyover and the Blair Rd. overpasses/cloverleafs marked as for the double-ended pocket track between the line tracks.
Which leaves only to the east of the flyover, more towards the baseball diamond area, as more probable (?) for a station reserve.

As always, at this point, we can only wait and see what they are planting where, and by how much !!!

EnJoy!

In theory, there is enough space between the pocket track and the flyover for a station.

[Multi-modal]

Lets not kid ourselves. The City has said that they are "protecting" for a future Gloucester High School station, but they are not. Their design requires the area west of the flyover for a pocket track to reverse trains at Blair Station, and east of the flyover they aren't widening the highway enough to reserve space for a median station. Any future infill station in either of those locations would be expensive to build and disrupt the main system. IMO it will not happen for at least 50 years. The only catalyst that I could see changing that would be if the Pine View Golf Course was permitted to redevelop, but that is EXTREMELY unlikely.

The fact that Jasmine Park didn't get a station but Orleans Boulevard did is a classic case of unconscious, systemic classism and even racism within our planning and transportation planning system (not necessarily individuals, but the who attends consultations, what community groups Councillors and planners are hesitant to upset, who is involved in the decision making process, etc.). Simple as that.

[MalcolmTucker]

Without a good place to connect with other transit, and with a relatively small catchment, I'd bet that station would be near the bottom of the list for use unless as you say a major redevelopment project is planned.

[Baybreeze12]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Lets not kid ourselves. The City has said that they are "protecting" for a future Gloucester High School station, but they are not. Their design requires the area west of the flyover for a pocket track to reverse trains at Blair Station, and east of the flyover they aren't widening the highway enough to reserve space for a median station. Any future infill station in either of those locations would be expensive to build and disrupt the main system. IMO it will not happen for at least 50 years. The only catalyst that I could see changing that would be if the Pine View Golf Course was permitted to redevelop, but that is EXTREMELY unlikely.

The fact that Jasmine Park didn't get a station but Orleans Boulevard did is a classic case of unconscious, systemic classism and even racism within our planning and transportation planning system (not necessarily individuals, but the who attends consultations, what community groups Councillors and planners are hesitant to upset, who is involved in the decision making process, etc.). Simple as that.

I think I agree. It seems the way our political system interacts with city planning rewards those who can afford to take the time to make themselves heard (meetings, donations, advocacy etc), who tend to be older, wealthier and whiter. But how do you balance proper representation ("we want to do what your community wants") with NIMBY/YIMBY-ism ("this plan is optimal for the whole city, even though it isn't exactly what your community wants")?

You can see the same issues in Toronto (and probably lots of other cities) - councillors push for sub-optimal use of transit investments to benefit their loud constituents at the expense of more impactful investments in other, less belligerent areas.

Do we blow up wards and just elect a body of councillors who represent all Ottawans? It's an interesting idea...