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  #6901  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 8:22 PM
lonewolf lonewolf is offline
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I don't want to know what that stupid canopy cost. unreal the scams they're able to pull with these contracts

shout out to all those kings kings getting OT to work nights

and before the "it's not that bad" comments.
It's not functional.
It's not aesthetic.
It's not modifiable.
I guarantee you if we have problems with it we will be paying the contractor to remove it with a 15 man crew working nights, that is not assembled with local tools, materials and labor
I guarantee you that things was not made here and if we need replacement we will wait 6 months while paying out the wazoo for a piece that isn't in production anymore.

We know how to make canopies. We've been doing it for thousands of years. No reason the public accepts this sham. Rant over.
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  #6902  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 8:26 PM
Novacek Novacek is offline
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Originally Posted by GoldenBoot View Post
^^^This is NOT a Biz Journal article. It was an op-ed written by Jim Skaggs & Roger Falk on behalf of their PAC. They are two of this biggest NIMBYS in existence and the bane to progress in Austin.
And they can't even do simple, basic math.

"Using Capital Metro’s numbers and traditional bond funding, Project Connect requires $2,800 a year at minimum on the average property value to fully fund and operate. "

Not even close.
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  #6903  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 8:33 PM
freerover freerover is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBoot View Post
^^^This is NOT a Biz Journal article. It was an op-ed written by Jim Skaggs & Roger Falk on behalf of their PAC. They are two of this biggest NIMBYS in existence and the bane to progress in Austin.
The Pac's biggest donors are tied to car dealerships. That should tell you it's a good mass transit plan. They don't people to be able to live in Austin without having a car or families having 2 cars.
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  #6904  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 8:52 PM
Novacek Novacek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
and before the "it's not that bad" comments.
It's not functional.
It's completely functional. It blocks the sun and the rain. What more function do you want?


Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
I guarantee you if we have problems with it we will be paying the contractor to remove it with a 15 man crew working nights, that is not assembled with local tools, materials and labor
I guarantee you that things was not made here and if we need replacement we will wait 6 months while paying out the wazoo for a piece that isn't in production anymore.
Waiting on a piece? A piece of what? It's a big sheet of metal. What pieces are there to replace?
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  #6905  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 10:11 PM
atxsnail atxsnail is offline
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Originally Posted by Novacek View Post
It's completely functional. It blocks the sun and the rain. What more function do you want?
I think people have really strong feelings about inverted canopy designs for some reason. I doubt this costs any more than a more traditional "gabled roof" design. Aside from the addition of water drainage features, I bet it's about the same amount of raw materials and man hours. These things are usually fabricated to order, it's not like we can just buy them off the shelf at the Home Depot.
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  #6906  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 4:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBoot View Post
This is NOT a Biz Journal article. It was an op-ed written by Jim Skaggs & Roger Falk on behalf of their PAC. They are two of this biggest NIMBYS in existence and the bane to progress in Austin.
I'll agree it was an op-ed. But when people respond by attacking the writer and not the message, I wonder why? Is it because the message contained in the op-ed was the truth?

We need to have an honest debate on the issues and messages, not a debate on personalities. If you disagree with them, please state why.
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  #6907  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 12:21 PM
We vs us We vs us is offline
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
Is it because the message contained in the op-ed was the truth?
No.
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  #6908  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 12:26 PM
lonewolf lonewolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atxsnail View Post
I think people have really strong feelings about inverted canopy designs for some reason. I doubt this costs any more than a more traditional "gabled roof" design. Aside from the addition of water drainage features, I bet it's about the same amount of raw materials and man hours. These things are usually fabricated to order, it's not like we can just buy them off the shelf at the Home Depot.
atxsnail is right. this is a big piece of fabricated material. likely assembled out of state. which means we paid to have it shipped over here.

It would be easy to build a bus stop made from local materials using local labor that can be assembled on site and repaired using the same means.

As a first world citizen I expect a bus stop to shelter from wind, sun and rain.

This canopy fails at all 3. Except for two hours of midday sun.
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  #6909  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 12:57 PM
Novacek Novacek is offline
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Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
atxsnail is right. this is a big piece of fabricated material. likely assembled out of state. which means we paid to have it shipped over here.
Because in the entire state of Texas, there's absolutely no one who can cut or weld simple steel.



Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
It would be easy to build a bus stop made from local materials using local labor that can be assembled on site and repaired using the same means.
It's so mechanically simple, it almost certainly was assembled on site.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
As a first world citizen I expect a bus stop to shelter from wind, sun and rain.

This canopy fails at all 3. Except for two hours of midday sun.
It will protect well from sun (throughout the day) and rain.

Wind, I'll give you. But the only way to "protect from wind" would be to build an enclosed box. Which we're most definitely not going to do when the biggest problem in Texas is heat, not wind.
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  #6910  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 1:37 PM
freerover freerover is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
atxsnail is right. this is a big piece of fabricated material. likely assembled out of state. which means we paid to have it shipped over here.

It would be easy to build a bus stop made from local materials using local labor that can be assembled on site and repaired using the same means.

As a first world citizen I expect a bus stop to shelter from wind, sun and rain.

This canopy fails at all 3. Except for two hours of midday sun.
They canopies were downscaled to stay on budget because utility work cost was higher.
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  #6911  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 1:51 PM
Novacek Novacek is offline
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Originally Posted by freerover View Post
They canopies were downscaled to stay on budget because utility work cost was higher.
slight clarification, my understanding is that the number of canopies was reduced, not necessarily a reduction in size of an individual canopy.

https://www.austinmonitor.com/stories/2019/01/capital-metro-cuts-back-on-downtown-station-plan/

(also reducing the amount of tracks for now, kiosks for now)
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  #6912  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 2:01 PM
freerover freerover is online now
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Originally Posted by Novacek View Post
slight clarification, my understanding is that the number of canopies was reduced, not necessarily a reduction in size of an individual canopy.

https://www.austinmonitor.com/stories/2019/01/capital-metro-cuts-back-on-downtown-station-plan/

(also reducing the amount of tracks for now, kiosks for now)
Thanks for the clarification.
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  #6913  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 2:10 PM
Novacek Novacek is offline
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
I'll agree it was an op-ed. But when people respond by attacking the writer and not the message, I wonder why? Is it because the message contained in the op-ed was the truth?

We need to have an honest debate on the issues and messages, not a debate on personalities. If you disagree with them, please state why.
These two individuals, due to lies like this, are directly responsible for a lot of economic and environmental damage to Austin over the decades. So it might be understandable that further lies upset people.

But sure, I can directly address the simple math of their claim.

I held my nose and went to their site, reading their methodology for how they come up with their $2800 /year /property claim. I don't recommend doing so, I feel slightly dumber for having read it.


Their methodology is such: They determine the cost it would take to simultaneously borrow $9.8B dollars (in 20 year bonds). Even though Austin (actually ATP) borrowing $9B was never on the table . Even though the construction schedule doesn't require everything to be borrowed all at once. Even though certain projects were never going to borrow, and instead are being done through "pay as you go".

And especially, critically, as ATP is never in a million years, going to pay for the federal share. In the extremely unlikely, almost impossible scenario that the feds don't pay for a big chunk*, the program would be downgraded.

ATP simple doesn't have the ability to increase taxes any more.


To all of the above falsehoods, they pile on. They then take the _2040_ operating costs of the _entire_ system, and add that on to the tax bill.

Even though not all the operating costs are coming from taxes.
Even though we'll be finished paying for construction of large parts of the system before operating costs even approach that 2040 number.
Even though those are the operating costs of the 10B system, and we're not voting on the 10B system.

They then take this entire cost, and divide by the number of taxpaying properties in Austin _in Travis County_, on 2020's tax rolls.
The former (not including Austin/Williamson and such) is relatively small but adds up big. The later (assuming no growth in Austin in 20 years) is blatantly false.
Among other problems, the system will be cheaper to run if Austin (impossibly) sees no growth.

The fact that they are claiming taxpayers are paying 2040 expenses, in 2040 inflated dollars, with today's dollars is almost a trivial error alongside their other whoppers.



*Austin is the fasted growing large city in the country, the 11th largest city, and has made almost no transit investment. If the feds are paying for transit anywhere, they're paying for it here. The cost/benefit ratio is the largest for us (just because we've neglected it for so long).
The fact that CapMetro went from talking about a 40% federal share to a 45% federal share shows that they have confidence in the feds picking up their share.
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  #6914  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 3:41 PM
lonewolf lonewolf is offline
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Originally Posted by Novacek View Post
Because in the entire state of Texas, there's absolutely no one who can cut or weld simple steel.

do you think i don't know that there are people capable of welding and cutting steel in TX or do you think you have no idea about what you're talking about?

....think about it..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Novacek View Post
It's so mechanically simple, it almost certainly was assembled on site.
assembled was a poor word choice on my part. obviously these are being assembled in the sense they are attaching the canopy to the support. I am referring to the fabrication of the canopy. (you know those things that they will allow local welders to repair and are in no way beholden to insurance contracts that dictate repairs need to be done by proprietary means)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Novacek View Post
It will protect well from sun (throughout the day) and rain.

Wind, I'll give you. But the only way to "protect from wind" would be to build an enclosed box. Which we're most definitely not going to do when the biggest problem in Texas is heat, not wind.
that's an interesting opinion. i will go on record as saying these canopies are too high and too small to be functional. this is admittedly based on a quick glance. also wind is very much a problem when it is raining

https://www.austinmonitor.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/3D-Renderings_VE-markups_flat.pdf

that's the pdf of what we were supposed to get. the scaled down version will not offer all that. you can already see the points of failure in the renderings. which again, we are not getting all of.
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  #6915  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 3:44 PM
lonewolf lonewolf is offline
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for the record, maybe those canopies are made in state. maybe they will allow joe welder to repair them. my experience and knowledge of this stuff(which is my job fwiw) has me guessing that ain't the case.

.02
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  #6916  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 4:17 PM
Novacek Novacek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
https://www.austinmonitor.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/3D-Renderings_VE-markups_flat.pdf

that's the pdf of what we were supposed to get. the scaled down version will not offer all that. you can already see the points of failure in the renderings. which again, we are not getting all of.
Each canopy is literally covering the exact same amount of area as before, providing the exact same protection, we're just getting two fewer of them.


The canopies are no higher now that they were always supposed to be. They can't get much lower, or the trains would hit them.

https://austin.towers.net/taking-a-close...rorail-station/[email protected]

The other design options were even higher.
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  #6917  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 6:42 PM
Sigaven Sigaven is offline
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Originally Posted by Novacek View Post
Each canopy is literally covering the exact same amount of area as before, providing the exact same protection, we're just getting two fewer of them.


The canopies are no higher now that they were always supposed to be. They can't get much lower, or the trains would hit them.

https://austin.towers.net/taking-a-close...rorail-station/[email protected]

The other design options were even higher.
I much prefer these weird tree thing designs than those basic-ass 80's arch designs.
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  #6918  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2020, 6:54 AM
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electricron electricron is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novacek View Post
These two individuals, due to lies like this, are directly responsible for a lot of economic and environmental damage to Austin over the decades. So it might be understandable that further lies upset people.

But sure, I can directly address the simple math of their claim.

I held my nose and went to their site, reading their methodology for how they come up with their $2800 /year /property claim. I don't recommend doing so, I feel slightly dumber for having read it.


Their methodology is such: They determine the cost it would take to simultaneously borrow $9.8B dollars (in 20 year bonds). Even though Austin (actually ATP) borrowing $9B was never on the table . Even though the construction schedule doesn't require everything to be borrowed all at once. Even though certain projects were never going to borrow, and instead are being done through "pay as you go".

And especially, critically, as ATP is never in a million years, going to pay for the federal share. In the extremely unlikely, almost impossible scenario that the feds don't pay for a big chunk*, the program would be downgraded.

ATP simple doesn't have the ability to increase taxes any more.


To all of the above falsehoods, they pile on. They then take the _2040_ operating costs of the _entire_ system, and add that on to the tax bill.

Even though not all the operating costs are coming from taxes.
Even though we'll be finished paying for construction of large parts of the system before operating costs even approach that 2040 number.
Even though those are the operating costs of the 10B system, and we're not voting on the 10B system.

They then take this entire cost, and divide by the number of taxpaying properties in Austin _in Travis County_, on 2020's tax rolls.
The former (not including Austin/Williamson and such) is relatively small but adds up big. The later (assuming no growth in Austin in 20 years) is blatantly false.
Among other problems, the system will be cheaper to run if Austin (impossibly) sees no growth.

The fact that they are claiming taxpayers are paying 2040 expenses, in 2040 inflated dollars, with today's dollars is almost a trivial error alongside their other whoppers.



*Austin is the fasted growing large city in the country, the 11th largest city, and has made almost no transit investment. If the feds are paying for transit anywhere, they're paying for it here. The cost/benefit ratio is the largest for us (just because we've neglected it for so long).
The fact that CapMetro went from talking about a 40% federal share to a 45% federal share shows that they have confidence in the feds picking up their share.
Now, that was what I asked for. Now, to clear the costs issue up, what are the real numbers? How much will the average, nominal taxpayer in Austin be on the hook for?
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  #6919  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2020, 12:25 PM
freerover freerover is online now
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
Now, that was what I asked for. Now, to clear the costs issue up, what are the real numbers? How much will the average, nominal taxpayer in Austin be on the hook for?
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  #6920  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2020, 2:46 PM
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Geckos_Rule Geckos_Rule is offline
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I remember seeing a very convenient Google Maps, showing where exactly the rail and bus lines for project connect would go...but I can't seem to find it digging through threads. Anyone have a link?
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