Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[libtard]

Should we really be investing in such a large public transit project when numbers show people aren’t riding transit anymore? At least not anywhere close to the levels they used to. Meanwhile highway and rod traffic has already returned to pre-pandemic levels. I think we should be investing more in single occupancy vehicle infrastructure since it’s the safest form of transportation

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by libtard

Should we really be investing in such a large public transit project when numbers show people aren’t riding transit anymore? At least not anywhere close to the levels they used to. Meanwhile highway and rod traffic has already returned to pre-pandemic levels. I think we should be investing more in single occupancy vehicle infrastructure since it’s the safest form of transportation

Are you for real?

[libtard]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Are you for real?

Are you denying transit numbers are down or that the coronavirus doesn’t exist?

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by libtard

Are you denying transit numbers are down or that the coronavirus doesn’t exist?

Are you suggesting that transportation investments intended to last for decades should be dropped because of a short-term pandemic?

[jollyburger]

Mods have said to keep the thread on topic, obviously some members can't be bothered. Reported.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by libtard

Are you denying transit numbers are down or that the coronavirus doesn’t exist?

Remember when the local ski season was crap during El Nino?

And for the record, yes, I am denying the coronavirus doesn't exist.

[santak003]

Find one LRT with at grade crossings in the world with 2 minute headways: Budapest

Low operational overheads are sited as a concern for having an LRT from Arbutus to UBC. "Find me one example of a system with at-grade crossings that runs with 2 minute headways anywhere in the world" is a common refrain.

Also, there are costs to consider, however the operational costs will be less than Bus BRT with multiple berths. The costs will be higher than running low frequency with a longer train (however I'm guessing the next argument will be..show me one train that is as long as the one planned/necessary for the UBC stretch...), but that argument is tangential.

More to the point, Budapest's L4 and L6 tram lines is only one line which differ by two end stops. It now operates as low as one minute headways. It is Europe's busiest tram. Interestingly, it bought new trains in 2006 @ 60m (fairly long) and the #4 and #6 trams are famous tram lines that link all the major metros in budapest. It's length is 8.5 km and it used to take over 30 minutes, but as of 2012, traffic signal priority was implemented on the ring road and it now takes 29 to 30 minutes with average speed of 18km/h with station spacing of 400m (19 stations in 8.5 km with 29 minute run time). These characteristics are similar to Vancouver's.

It is known as the ring line.

"Budapest established its tramway system in 1887, and its ring line has grown to be the busiest tram line in Europe, with a tram running every 60 seconds at rush hour." -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram

"This is really one tram line, the only deviation between the two occurring at the terminus of the route at Újbuda központ (4) and Morícz Zsigmond Körtér (6)." -
https://likelocals.blog/the-complete-budapest-transport-guide/


"Traffic lights along central Budapest’s outer ring road (Nagykörút) have been adjusted to give priority to trams, cutting journey time on lines 4 and 6 by two to three minutes."

"...trams will also run more frequently from February; up from 28 to 30 trams per hour in peak periods."

"The Municipality of Budapest initiative was implemented by BKK in order to cater for rising numbers of public transport passengers (already between 7,000 and 8,000 in peak hours compared to 3,000 individual vehicles)."

"Traffic lights at a further 68 junctions were reprogrammed to support 60-second intervals between trams (rather than the earlier 90-second intervals) and to cut journey time from 32 minutes to 28-30 minutes." -
2012
https://www.eltis.org/discover/news/priority-trams-central-budapest-hungary-0


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Budapest

[swimmer_spe]

Why do we need a forced transfer?

[Migrant_Coconut]

BRT is meant to be a stopgap until RRT is available; LRT is meant to be a permanent alternative to RRT. And since a BRT is much cheaper to build, the tram would be juuuust about to prove its value for money over BRT, then bam! Overcapacity, time to rip the whole thing up and dig a tunnel.

Thanks for the find. Now, note how the TSP only saves you four minutes on the trip. And that the longest Siemens Combino Plus or Urbos 3 (in the world, not just Budapest) is ~55m long - not 160 - which means you're not getting to 20k pphpd with that setup, let alone 36k, and if you try to extend the train lengths to 3x the size, you'll run into problems. And Budapest doesn't need to, since the tram is used as a bus-plus system rather than rapid transit. Broadway needs rapid transit.
EDIT: And actual frequencies are apparently every 8 minutes each, with an average frequency of 4-6 during the day; two minutes isn't a constant, it's when they need to play catchup.

Regardless, mods have requested that we keep the thread on-topic (i.e. plans and construction only).

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why do we need a forced transfer?

We don't need one - it's just that some people are obsessed with their own vision of transit. I've finally had enough of this nonsense and have hit 'ignore'.

How much does anyone here foresee bus routes changing once the new Broadway stations open? Certainly Surrey routes will see a big overhaul once the new stations on Fraser Hwy open, but will there need to be much change in Vancouver?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Sheba

How much does anyone here foresee bus routes changing once the new Broadway stations open? Certainly Surrey routes will see a big overhaul once the new stations on Fraser Hwy open, but will there need to be much change in Vancouver?

I could see the 16 using 4th instead - right now, nothing's covering those five blocks north of the station area, and overlapping service on Broadway would be much less necessary once the SkyTrain's there.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Sheba

We don't need one - it's just that some people are obsessed with their own vision of transit. I've finally had enough of this nonsense and have hit 'ignore'.

How much does anyone here foresee bus routes changing once the new Broadway stations open? Certainly Surrey routes will see a big overhaul once the new stations on Fraser Hwy open, but will there need to be much change in Vancouver?

Well they are calling it a five year temporary route change for the trolley line routes which seems to infer they will be back in some form.

[ilikeredheads]

Originally Posted by Sheba

We don't need one - it's just that some people are obsessed with their own vision of transit. I've finally had enough of this nonsense and have hit 'ignore'.

How much does anyone here foresee bus routes changing once the new Broadway stations open? Certainly Surrey routes will see a big overhaul once the new stations on Fraser Hwy open, but will there need to be much change in Vancouver?

I don't see many big changes, if at all. They might keep the current detour on 12ave for the trolley lines, even though they said it was "temporary".

[scottN]

I think there could be some changes to the 84. Currently it has a dual mandate - limited stop express service to connect UBC and west 4th ave to the Millenum line, and also local service on 6th/2nd/great northern way east of Granville Street where the #4 and #7 turn to go downtown.

With the Millenium line being extended to arbutus, it makes sense to connect the 4th avenue express service to the Millenium line at Arbutus rather than VCC Clark. But then what do you do for local service along 6th/2nd/great northern way?

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by scottN

I think there could be some changes to the 84. Currently it has a dual mandate - limited stop express service to connect UBC and west 4th ave to the Millenum line, and also local service on 6th/2nd/great northern way east of Granville Street where the #4 and #7 turn to go downtown.

With the Millenium line being extended to arbutus, it makes sense to connect the 4th avenue express service to the Millenium line at Arbutus rather than VCC Clark. But then what do you do for local service along 6th/2nd/great northern way?

I guess they'll have to look at the boarding/disembarking data and figure out how to work it. But I doubt it'll continue to UBC unless they are picking up a lot of people between Cambie and Kits destined for UBC. But pretty much agreed that stretch of Olympic Village and VCC will need some kind of local service. The 50/15 could always be split in some way and have it branch from there.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

I don't see many big changes, if at all. They might keep the current detour on 12ave for the trolley lines, even though they said it was "temporary".

Almost all of the demand is on Broadway, those trolley routes will return there once Skytrain construction is complete.

[scottN]

Well the 84 is currently the fastest route from UBC to transfer to the Millenium Line. But I guess that might no longer be the case once the quick 6th avenue and great northern way segments are cut out from the trip.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

I guess they'll have to look at the boarding/disembarking data and figure out how to work it. But I doubt it'll continue to UBC unless they are picking up a lot of people between Cambie and Kits destined for UBC. But pretty much agreed that stretch of Olympic Village and VCC will need some kind of local service. The 50/15 could always be split in some way and have it branch from there.

That will show a more accurate demand for a streetcar possibly, as it will be a similar route. I agree something is needed along GNW/2nd, maybe with a better connection to a reconfigured Granville Island too.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

At least "long" for us is 80m not 120+ like in some other systems. That being said it feels like not putting in second entrances especially for an underground station is such a missed opportunity given redundant exits are already needed . . .



Transit has existed for how long? Did people stop using it after previous pandemics or did it recover? Irrespective of this our city is not stagnant, it continues to grow incredibly fast. The transit system also needs to grow just to keep the status quo intact.

This is unchartered territory. A significant part of society has discovered they can work from home. Business has discovered it is cheaper and the productivity hit is small. The same for education.

That said, I think we may see longer trips and more use of commuter rail and other high speed transit the connects outlying areas into core area. Expanded skytrain is an important part of the mix.