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View Poll Results: Based on options for Broadway Corridor Study, what is your preferred choice?
BRT: Commercial to UBC 25 6.16%
LRT A: Commercial to UBC OR Commercial via VCC to UBC 31 7.64%
LRT B: Main St. to UBC AND Commercial to UBC 18 4.43%
RRT: Commercial to UBC OR VCC to UBC 283 69.70%
COMBO: RRT to Arbutus/LRT to Main St via Arbutus 39 9.61%
BUS: Enhanced Bus Service for all buses to UBC 10 2.46%
Voters: 406. You may not vote on this poll

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  #10861  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 6:35 PM
Jimbo604 Jimbo604 is offline
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broadwaysubway.ca current construction work page lists most recent work as:

"September 18, 2020 – Trolley Wire Relocation Project
Weekend work will occur Sep 19-20 to remove overhead trolley wires at the intersection of Broadway/Oak"

They've done a bunch of these as well as advance utility relocation projects. Waiting for the first construction that isn't one of these two!

The main broadwaysubway.ca page says "Construction will begin in fall 2020, with the line in service in 2025."

Fall 2020 began a few days ago and goes until Dec 21st so it could be almost three months and still technically start in fall 2020. Hopefully sooner!
     
     
  #10862  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 11:53 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo604 View Post
broadwaysubway.ca current construction work page lists most recent work as:

"September 18, 2020 – Trolley Wire Relocation Project
Weekend work will occur Sep 19-20 to remove overhead trolley wires at the intersection of Broadway/Oak"

They've done a bunch of these as well as advance utility relocation projects. Waiting for the first construction that isn't one of these two!

The main broadwaysubway.ca page says "Construction will begin in fall 2020, with the line in service in 2025."

Fall 2020 began a few days ago and goes until Dec 21st so it could be almost three months and still technically start in fall 2020. Hopefully sooner!
See Jollyburger's post from 2 days ago - nothing in the ground til 2021:

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...ostcount=10834
     
     
  #10863  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2020, 3:58 AM
vango vango is offline
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https://www.broadwaysubway.ca/about/stations/

The Arbutus station map states that an alternative route for the Greenway is to be determined. Probably will be rerouted onto Arbutus Street rather than Maple Street?
     
     
  #10864  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2020, 4:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vango View Post
https://www.broadwaysubway.ca/about/stations/

The Arbutus station map states that an alternative route for the Greenway is to be determined. Probably will be rerouted onto Arbutus Street rather than Maple Street?
It sounds like that is just for during construction.
     
     
  #10865  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2020, 4:44 PM
TransitJack TransitJack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vango View Post
https://www.broadwaysubway.ca/about/stations/

The Arbutus station map states that an alternative route for the Greenway is to be determined. Probably will be rerouted onto Arbutus Street rather than Maple Street?
Likely divert via 10th / Cypress as these are existing bike routes / traffic calmed routes that connect back to the Greenway with minimal effort.
     
     
  #10866  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 3:55 AM
santak003 santak003 is offline
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Redefining maximum capacity of LRT at grade for Arbutus to UBC corridor: 36000 pphpd

Redefining maximum capacity of LRT at grade for Arbutus to UBC corridor: From 7200 to 36000 pphpd (and leaving LRT as a contender to skytrain): “Jan 2019 Rail Rapid Transit Study to UBC” (aka Slam the Tram).

The benefits of light rail run deep. Safety, Reliability, Comfort, Cost and Capacity.

“LRT is demand-responsive in that the length of trains and the service frequency can be easily adjusted when required”

In the Jan 2019 Rail Rapid Transit Study to UBC (aka “Slam the Tram”), McElhanney Consulting essentially knee-capped the LRT by denying the major pillar of “demand responsiveness” , by effectively limiting the LRT train to a theoretical maximum operating capacity at 7200 pphpd by limiting headways to 4 minutes and vehicle lengths to 2 train consists @ 80m total length with carrying capacity of 240 for each train unit for a max carrying capacity of 480 persons.

The rest of the report eliminated the LRT at grade from consideration for Arbutus to UBC, all because of this max capacity limit of 7200 pphpd.

Using data from Vancouver’s operational environment, an argument is laid out that the actual maximum capacity that should have been used in the report is 36000 due to two factors: Vehicle Carrying Capacity should be adjusted to 1200 from 480 and minimum headway should be adjusted from 4 minutes to 2 minutes. The argument for this is laid out in three separate documents (backgrounders).

The backgrounders will illuminate certain concepts while using conservative estimates to arrive at results and most importantly how the operational capacity risk of implementing LRT at grade is LOW and sufficient for 2050 time horizons:

- How and when to trust the minimum headway formula
- How the minimum headway formula does not account for traffic signal priority
- How the minimum headway formula assumes that traffic congestion/saturation is at a reasonable level
- How the minimum headway formula incorporates the level of bunching you are designing for
- How, in a well run operating environment like Vancouver, the dwell time of the train and it's variation is the main element to achieve low minimum headway
- How runtime data from Vancouver streets shows that traffic in Vancouver is at a low level of saturation
- How traffic signal priority at low saturation levels of traffic can be applied in a preemptive way with no effects on cross traffic (Low Risk of implementation)
- How 98% of the westside has 160m block lengths and the two locations where it is not (120m at Macdonald and Westbrook) should trade off pedestrian access for block length
- How by changing the train vehicles, one can achieve a higher capacity for 160m block lengths



https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

Last edited by santak003; Oct 1, 2020 at 4:12 AM.
     
     
  #10867  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 4:56 AM
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i thought we had moved on from this?
     
     
  #10868  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 4:59 AM
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Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
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Anybody want to take this? No? Paladin, feel free to delete everybody below TransitJack.

A) Dwell times aren't a major complaint about the 99 (around 20-30s right now), and optimization only saves a few minutes, so the benefit is marginal.

B) Stop capacity =/= street capacity. Parallel traffic =/= cross-traffic. Studies = inapplicable.

C) Theoretical maximums are theoretical. RRT's unrealistic fantasy number is 57,000 and BRT's is 45,000. Neither are happening on Broadway.

D) What's best for the train =/= what's best for the street.
Without TSP, two-minute light rail is fine, if cumbersome and overpriced and worse for jaywalking. With TSP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
If it's numbers we're looking for and absolutely nothing else, how about this: we've established that a fully-mature tram line on Broadway would need trainsets the length of the block: 160m. And the average intersection on Broadway, crosswalk to crosswalk, is 20-30m.

Let's add a 4-second transit priority, as with most Canadian cities. At 50km/h (B-Line speed), that's roughly 18 seconds between the TSP light and the last car safely exiting the intersection. No matter how cleverly you write the formula, or plan train schedules, or ban turns, two-minute TSP is 36 of 120 seconds taken from the regular traffic cycle by the tram line, or 30% less time to cross the street. NOT 2.5% as some people have alleged.
     
     
  #10869  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 4:59 AM
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Changing City Changing City is offline
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Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post
i thought we had moved on from this?
We had. Apparently it wasn't unanimous. The OCD is strong with this one.
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  #10870  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 5:04 AM
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Yeah, this is a PROJECT thread for construction updates.
No room for theoretical debates clogging up the thread.
     
     
  #10871  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 5:18 AM
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Might as well drive up to TransLink's doorstep and harangue them about the miracles of giant surface metros in person - it won't work, but it'll be much more productive than this is.
     
     
  #10872  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 1:47 PM
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[QUOTE=santak003;9059981]Redefining maximum capacity of LRT at grade for Arbutus to UBC corridor: From 7200 to 36000 pphpd (and leaving LRT as a contender to skytrain): “Jan 2019 Rail Rapid Transit Study to UBC” (aka Slam the Tram).



So at the risk of keeping this alive. The link only seems to go to the main article not the various backgrounds that may say something useful. The back grounders may elevate the article from fantasy/confirmation bias but I could not tell. Also an author would be useful.
To refresh the Mcelhaney study was the whole corridor, not just from Arbutus. The vehicle length is limited by the distance between Main and that other nearby intersection. Obviously having an LRV blocking major intersections at stations is bad. The Mcelhaney study did look at signal preemption/priority. Hence the 4min headways. After 4 min it breaks down and impacts on transit on the cross streets become unacceptable. You can run at more than 4 min headways but without priority...so basically a big version of the Bline in the center of the street. With priority you get 4min headways and unless you have a plan to avoid Main and Broadway you have 80m trains and 7,200pphpd.
     
     
  #10873  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 8:37 PM
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I was on the LRT aka streetcar in Melbourne, we hit traffic and it took us more than 30 minutes to move 4 blocks, it was extremely slow, sure we were on a train but being on a road in traffic didn't make any difference, it was quite painful and apparently quite common there, completely useless as a way to commute, nice for tourists like me but useless as viable transit.
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  #10874  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 8:39 PM
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So with the construction of the stations, how will they be done, will there be a lot of disruption at street level or will the public not really notice anything?
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  #10875  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 10:02 PM
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west-side NIMBYs are too wealthy to be one-issue posting on SSP so much. Is this LRT guy just delusional or a south-of-fraser person trying to "save" some money for their region's transit? lol
     
     
  #10876  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 10:35 PM
Jimbo604 Jimbo604 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
We had. Apparently it wasn't unanimous. The OCD is strong with this one.
Indeed... but don't we need something to yack about until there are shovels in the ground. Which is going to be a number of months yet, apparently. Then there can be a project-construction-discussion-only clampdown, lol.
     
     
  #10877  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 10:40 PM
Jimbo604 Jimbo604 is offline
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From the project website: broadwaysubway.ca





Source: https://www.broadwaysubway.ca/construction/maps/
























Source: https://www.broadwaysubway.ca/about/stations/

Last edited by Jimbo604; Oct 1, 2020 at 11:02 PM.
     
     
  #10878  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 10:47 PM
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Thanks for posting. A couple of sharp turns in that route. Anybody know how those compare to the bigger corners currently on Expo/M-Line?

I really hope we don't have a deafening underground screech.
     
     
  #10879  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 10:50 PM
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What's the rationale behind keeping the platforms between streets rather than centering them at the station entrances? I'm assuming there isn't any disruption at grade besides at the station entrance/staging areas?
     
     
  #10880  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpongeG View Post
So with the construction of the stations, how will they be done, will there be a lot of disruption at street level or will the public not really notice anything?
i hear there will be disruption. but to minimize it they'll do something like the Canada-Line where its a bridge/cover over the pit.
     
     
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