Great Canadian Skyline Thread II

[someone123]

Originally Posted by PortaPetee

There seems to be some resistance to the notion that mid-rise is more urban, but, well, Europe? Halifax will not likely every look truly European, but i feel like it's going a bit more in that direction than other cities with monolithic downtowns and endless flat sprawl.

Midrise is good for greenfield sites but often in the city you're looking at infill mixed with heritage or buildings that can't be demolished for one reason or another. So if 8-10 storeys is the ideal density and you can only redevelop 20% of the land, towers start to look more attractive. I think there is a role for 30+ storey towers in even smaller cities.

Some cities screw this up by implementing tons of restrictions on what land can be built on and then limiting construction to medium sized buildings on that land, and they get densities that are too low to support good transit or businesses and other amenities. Or they get completely unaffordable housing because the land costs work out to $800,000 per unit. That is an issue here in Vancouver where people want a small town feel in some neighbourhoods but land costs millions per acre. Such area become playgrounds for multimillionaires.

Halifax used to have its terrible development system which zoned everything for ~0 development as-of-right and then allowed for an uncertain multi-year legal battle to approve anything else with few clear limits. Land pricing must have been kind of a mystery and development a gamble.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by PortaPetee

I might be completely wrong about that. It was a tongue in cheek reference to my complaints about someone else in another thread and I thought someone123 might recognize me for that. But he's too fair and probably decided not to pay attention to my provocations.

Yes, I know what you are getting at. All of the mods can use their powers anywhere on SSP; there is no technical limitation on moderating different subsections.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by PortaPetee

Agreed. If you look at an aerial view of similar sized cities like London or even bigger cities like Hamilton or Calgary - Halifax has a lot of midrise and highrise development scattered loosely across the city and out into the burbs, whereas those other cities appear to be mostly flat outside of their downtowns. I think if Halifax were ever to truly to boomtown it would end up a few skylines rather than one. There would probably be a clear downtown, midtown, and uptown - Atlanta is like that (although a much much larger metro area.)

Something I've noticed is that nearly all greenfield/large brownfield subdivisions here tend to include apartments/condos, often as highrises. This approach seems to go back to at least the 1960s. Generally most cities in Canada don't seem to have followed this pattern - London ON seems a bit like this, but less - a lot of its suburban neighbourhoods seem to be universally SFHs while others have large apartment/condo towers integrated or adjacent.

There are also a bunch of higher-density, mixed-used "nodes" outside of DT - Armdale/Mumford, DT Dartmouth, Dutch Village, the King's College area, and increasingly the Young/Robie and Quinpool/Robie areas. These are all relatively close together "as the crow flies" but because they're visually separated by hills, they feel much more like distinct, self-contained pockets of density.

And then there are also a lot of commie-block-esque towers on prominent hills in suburban areas west of the core - Cowie Hill, Fairview, Clayton Park, Rockingham/MSVU, Bedford South. This is almost an inversion of how things seem to work in most other cities.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by PortaPetee

Wandering around certain sections of Istanbul late at night, the streets are full of people, the restaurants and the clubs are booming, the street performers are lit up, everything is so. damned. euro. urban.

I would like to go to Istanbul but it seems sketchy so I never really looked into travelling to Turkey. Yet I have been to potentially similar or worse countries. How recently did you go?

That is the sort of feel that needs a higher density that you can't get by doing 8-10 storeys just on some of the land while other land is detached houses and strip malls.

[PortaPetee]

Originally Posted by someone123

Midrise is good for greenfield sites but often in the city you're looking at infill mixed with heritage or buildings that can't be demolished for one reason or another. So if 8-10 storeys is the ideal density and you can only redevelop 20% of the land, towers start to look more attractive. I think there is a role for 30+ storey towers in even smaller cities.

Totally get that. I'm more referring to the few who are constantly lamenting "the tabletop" and the fact there are not 40 or 60 story buildings in a city of a size that has no precedent for buildings of that height.

[PortaPetee]

Originally Posted by someone123

I would like to go to Istanbul but it seems sketchy so I never really looked into travelling to Turkey. Yet I have been to potentially similar or worse countries. How recently did you go?

That is the sort of feel that needs a higher density that you can't get by doing 8-10 storeys just on some of the land while other land is detached houses and strip malls.

I was there in 2012 when the government was still pretty secular (in principle.) I will say for a city of 14 million I did not feel unsafe for even a single second. It's just not like American cities that way - I didn't feel any threat of crime, ever. I did get hit on by a very big hairy man though -

But of course it's very different for women.

And Beirut was also different - you can feel the political / military tension in the air. Officers in camo with military style long guns stopping you here and there to ask for your passport. Beautiful country but definitely felt dangerous.

I'd still rather wander around Beirut alone than Mobile Alabama though LOL

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by PortaPetee

Oh that's great to hear, because I was coming from lil ole Halifax and thinking, "wow, itty bitty Halifax is WAAAAYYY more vibrant and exciting than this wasteland." People told me to go to 17th Ave. so I did and I was like, OK 5 minutes from downtown and I'm in the suburbs already and still "where is the nightlife?? I swore I'd never go back LOL. Perhaps I'll give it second chance one day.

To be fair, I was alone and didn't have a guide and it wasn't like today where you'd just go on an app and find one. So that might have been part of the problem.

A big part of this is that Halifax truly does "punch above its weight" when it comes to nightlife and the importance of downtown as a place of leisure - most downtowns in Canada feel a bit 9-to-5 in comparison, with a few exceptions, but not many. A big factor is the very liberal hours of operation here - many inner city businesses are open 24/7, and a handful of the larger nightclubs can serve until ~3:45am. So it's not uncommon for live musical acts to go until 4am, etc. During the day, the (probably average-sized) office crowd is bolstered by huge tourist crowds in the summer (not this year) and the large student population the rest of the year. The downtown is also bookended to the south by one of the main container terminals and grain elevators for the region, to the north by the main navy base, and to the west by the main university/hospital district, which each contribute to the vibrancy/chaos of downtown. The local frame of reference for nightlife and urban offerings tends to be St. John's and/or Montreal, which are both notoriously hedonistic. Most of Canada is a bit tamer, many parts considerably so.

On the other hand I would say that when I visited Calgary a couple summers ago the overall vibe downtown was similar to Halifax - somewhat larger, and a degree more office worker-oriented and less tourist-oriented, but overall felt about as "busy" when it came to bars/restaurants/people wandering about. The main nightlife/entertainment areas are dispersed somewhat haphazardly around central Calgary, in Halifax they're a bit more concentrated/less linear. Another factor is that neighbourhood pubs/restaurants tend to be a bit more popular in Calgary (and Edmonton) than in Halifax, where downtown establishments are (rightly or wrongly) seen as a clear step up from the local pub (where there even is one). All that said, downtown Calgary didn't feel particularly placid or boring, and would compare favourably against the Canadian average (I think). Having a guide would definitely help.

[PortaPetee]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Something I've noticed is that nearly all greenfield/large brownfield subdivisions here tend to include apartments/condos, often as highrises. This approach seems to go back to at least the 1960s. Generally most cities in Canada don't seem to have followed this pattern - London ON seems a bit like this, but less - a lot of its suburban neighbourhoods seem to be universally SFHs while others have large apartment/condo towers integrated or adjacent.

There are also a bunch of higher-density, mixed-used "nodes" outside of DT - Armdale/Mumford, DT Dartmouth, Dutch Village, the King's College area, and increasingly the Young/Robie and Quinpool/Robie areas. These are all relatively close together "as the crow flies" but because they're visually separated by hills, they feel much more like distinct, self-contained pockets of density.

And then there are also a lot of commie-block-esque towers on prominent hills in suburban areas west of the core - Cowie Hill, Fairview, Clayton Park, Rockingham/MSVU, Bedford South. This is almost an inversion of how things seem to work in most other cities.

You know what, I never really thought about it - but the reason for these nodes may be that they were historically separate little towns. The city is old and the population growth was very slow from the 1890s to the 1990s. Armdale and Spryfield were definitely was a separate aarea with its own main street. Bedford was right up until the 90s with its own little downtown. I imagine the Sackville were totally separate from Bedford, whereas now i'm not sure where one ends and where the other begins.

Clayton Park and Rockingham were built in the 60s and they were the very edge of town. My Mom talked about how they used to trek out to that area in the 50s and early 60s to go to the wild lakes. She even recognized my property, roughly, and showed me where the river used to be.

She grew up near Quinpool and at that time that was at the outskirts - which is hilarious because now I just refer to that loosely as part of downtown.

[PortaPetee]

Originally Posted by Hali87

A big part of this is that Halifax truly does "punch above its weight" when it comes to nightlife and the importance of downtown as a place of leisure - most downtowns in Canada feel a bit 9-to-5 in comparison, with a few exceptions, but not many. A big factor is the very liberal hours of operation here - many inner city businesses are open 24/7, and a handful of the larger nightclubs can serve until ~3:45am. So it's not uncommon for live musical acts to go until 4am, etc. During the day, the (probably average-sized) office crowd is bolstered by huge tourist crowds in the summer (not this year) and the large student population the rest of the year. The downtown is also bookended to the south by one of the main container terminals and grain elevators for the region, to the north by the main navy base, and to the west by the main university/hospital district, which each contribute to the vibrancy/chaos of downtown.

On the other hand I would say that when I visited Calgary a couple summers ago the overall vibe downtown was similar to Halifax - somewhat larger, and a degree more office worker-oriented and less tourist-oriented, but overall felt about as "busy" when it came to bars/restaurants/people wandering about. The main nightlife/entertainment areas are dispersed somewhat haphazardly around central Calgary, in Halifax they're a bit more concentrated/less linear.

Yeah Hali definitely has a very bustling feel compared to many other cities and our more relaxed hours are part of that. Again I'm glad to hear that Calgary is now bustling too, because 15 years ago I couldn't believe how dull it was LOL

[Martin Mtl]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CFhz6mSnbQY/

[J.OT13]

Night shot of Parliament and the Ottawa River from the Marriott:


https://twitter.com/ottawamarriott?lang=en

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by PortaPetee

Yeah Hali definitely has a very bustling feel compared to many other cities and our more relaxed hours are part of that. Again I'm glad to hear that Calgary is now bustling too, because 15 years ago I couldn't believe how dull it was LOL

I think what he meant is that Calgary feels about as lively as Halifax, which isn't necessarily a positive given that Calgary is nearly four times the size!

I was in Calgary for the first time in many years this past winter and although it has become much more dynamic and interesting than when I lived there, it still has dull street life. My stay coincided with a mild spell with some lovely above-zero weather and sunshine, and yet very few people were out on the streets, even in the Beltline. People just don't seem to walk around very much.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I was in Calgary for the first time in many years this past winter and although it has become much more dynamic and interesting than when I lived there, it still has dull street life. My stay coincided with a mild spell with some lovely above-zero weather and sunshine, and yet very few people were out on the streets, even in the Beltline. People just don't seem to walk around very much.

My impression of Calgary when I was there for a few nights was pickup trucks buzzing by on their way to wherever they go, presumably somewhere not in the Downtown. I had a good enough time but I don't think i've ever raved to anyone about going-out-in-Calgary in the last six years since I was last there.

One of the main differences between Calgary and Halifax is that the latter has two pretty sizable universities right downtown, which 100% affects streetlife. U Calgary is less direct in that sense.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I think what he meant is that Calgary feels about as lively as Halifax, which isn't necessarily a positive given that Calgary is nearly four times the size!

Sort of. I'd clarify that there were surely more people (total) milling about a somewhat larger area in Calgary. It definitely didn't feel 3-4x busier than Halifax or as if there were 3-4x the number of people milling about a somewhat larger area though. I just meant in terms of the overall crowdedness/bustle: it wasn't very crowded like parts of DT Toronto but there were certainly a lot of people around. To expand on this a bit I'd say that DT Edmonton felt substantially less busy than DT Halifax the last few times I've been there, both in relative and raw numbers terms, even though it's closer to Calgary in size. It's possible that I missed the busy areas/times of day there, and it's also just not very pedestrian-oriented. There are also fewer parts of DT Halifax that "don't get/stay busy" than in the Alberta cities - partly because DT Halifax is geographically quite small.

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by someone123

Halifax Harbour shots featuring departing navy ships:



Source

Nice pic Someone123, love the detail in here!

Going back to some of the previous comments today - skylines are great from a distance, viewed from a high level hotel room or on SSP - otherwise they don't mean much and the quality of city life is found on the streets. Which is to say, don't be overlooking Halifax, Saint John, St. John's, if people even do anymore.

Looking at skyline pics is very misleading as well, because based on that picture and most other Halifax skyline shots you would swear it's one of the youngest cities in Canada. It's nearly impossible to see the historic core because it's hidden or tucked out of site, or just overwhelmed by the new mid-rise buildings.

Saint John has an underwhelming skyline, some would even say ugly, my picture below:

Coming in to Saint John by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

But it has one of the best walkable, historic downtowns in Canada. I'd love to see this city make a come back, so much potential. Sure there are some issues such as I find it strangely disconnected from the harbour, probably because it's more industrial based than tourist base. I have way too many pics to do it justice, so here's just a few:

Saint John offices by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

Market Square, Saint John, NB by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

Saint John Prince William Street by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

Saint John Tulips by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

CIBC Saint John by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr


Saint John NB by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

But back to skylines - another Victoria drone shot:



Source



source

This last one is from the Hudson District where the old Bay department store was converted to condos, and in exchange for the exterior historical preservation they were allowed to build where the former parkade was Victoria's tallest building in behind, plus the smaller rental you see to the right and under construction now directly behind it (you can probably see the pit) a 23 storey rental. It's a shame in some ways as it'll block off the taller building from some angles and it won't stand out anymore in most skyline shots.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by PortaPetee

Oh shit did I just change this from a Calgary-Montreal fight into a Halifax-Calgary fight?
I'm sorry! I didn't mean it!

What? Not in the slightest. I was just drawing relative comparisons. I don't think there's been a Calgary Montreal fight here in years other than the nonsense Lio contrives daily.

Originally Posted by PortaPetee

You probably would. Sometimes two people just get one another's goats online. Humour doesn't translate, etc. I have my mortal enemy on another thread, but I often find myself grudgingly agreeing with his posts. I don't tell him that of course. LOL

The difference is that he has to try, I just end condoning it far too often. His garbage is not and has never been humour, by the way. However, I'd gladly take that cunts money and he'd still get a fabulous tour.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

One could go even further and argue that the inner city Montreal/Brooklyn built form of continuous/attached 3-4 story tenements is actually more "urban" than most towers-in-parks regardless of their height.

In fact, I'd say true urbanity comes from a bunch of factors; the densest cities have lots of very tall buildings, sure, but height by itself isn't the be-all end-all.

yeah, who goes to Paris and hangs out in La Defense?

-not an Idiot

[MolsonExport]

DT St. John is a gem. I have some family members that live right downtown in the old Victorian section.

-not an Idiot.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

What? Not in the slightest. I was just drawing relative comparisons. I don't think there's been a Calgary Montreal fight here in years other than the nonsense Lio contrives daily.

? Someone correctly pointing out Calgary's fascinating/exotic Giant Boomtown Characteristics only constitutes "a Calgary-Montreal fight" in your head.

And you seem to be allergic to me (and MolsonExport, and rousseau) specifically for some reason, because no less than four people, all of them non-Albertans, just said they found that Calgary's street life was dull, and against all expectations, you did not just go batshit crazy nuclear on them. Strange...

His garbage is not and has never been humour, by the way. However, I'd gladly take that cunts money and he'd still get a fabulous tour.

Be warned though, if the tour does not include at least some detached wooden shacks, I will likely file a claim asking for a full refund on the grounds that the tour turned out grossly un-representative of inner city Calgary.

(How's that for humor? )

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

DT St. John is a gem. I have some family members that live right downtown in the old Victorian section.

-not an Idiot.

A CIBC that is still located in the bank's own heritage buliding, AND with tasteful modern-CIBC-themed awnings, and without a giant square logo covering part of the engraved lettering! We demand to know who's responsible for this, and why he hasn't been given more responsibilities within the organization.

Also, I love that 4-story brownstone. Pretty unique building - it's a bland-ish basic style that isn't normally using fancier materials.