Hyperloops in Canada

[jawagord]

Originally Posted by milomilo

There are a number of reasons Hyperloop obviously is not what is claimed:

Cost:
Hyperloop is claimed to be cheaper than HSR and anyone with half a brain should be able to see this is nonsense straight off the bat. It's a more complicated, new technology that requires a straighter alignment. It is simply impossible that the infrastructure could be cheaper than HSR, and that destroys most of the case.

Expansion:
A steel tube will lengthen by hundreds of metres over the 300km of track between Calgary - Edmonton when undergoing the ~70C temperature swings it will be subject to. Adding expansion joints capable of withstanding that while sealing a vacuum is not going to be easy and there is no indication any thought has been put into this.

Safety:
One puncture, like from a rifle, and the entire system is destroyed and everyone dies.

Energy efficiency:
First, there's the fluff about solar panels. You could do this just the same with roads and railways, so that claim is trash. And how much energy are we talking to depressurize 600km of tube?

To name a few. And the technology has regressed - the claims to begin with are now less impressive than they were 8 years ago. Despite multiple test tracks being built.

I don't think Hyperloop is impossible (though maybe above surface it practically is), but I do believe it impossible to do in a way that is even close to cost competitive with HSR, or maglev for that matter. If maglev can't compete with HSR on cost, there's no chance Hyperloop could.



I give posts the level of respect they deserve. Anyone that laps up obvious BS like hyperloop is the type that would have believed Bitcoin, Theranos or solar freaking roadways.

I think the Hollywood fallacy of catastrophic explosion/implosion can be removed from your list. A steel cylinder designed for full vacuum and capable of supporting it's own weight is not going to implode from a bullet hole any more than a pressurized cylinder is going to explode from a bullet hole. All that will happen is air will leak in or air will leak out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkhtTPU9KjM

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Doug

Alberta provided free land to construct a demonstration. Not many other jurisdictions could do so close to a major transpiration corridor.

I can only envision two outcomes:
1) some other idea, possibly a good one, comes out of this one
2) government gains experience in how to structure and execute the kinds of arrangements and attracts other future experiments

Beyond distracting the PR department, this carries zero opportunity cost:
1) HSR stands no chance in Alberta, at least not for many decades, so whatever this project turns out does not threaten. The population is nowhere even close to large enough
2) Beyond possibly being under cultivation, what other immediate uses would better suit this land?

This would be far more defensible if Alberta wasn't getting stuck with the bill to take down whatever Transpod builds.

[MolsonExport]

• Video Link

[milomilo]

A hyperloop is much bigger than a scuba tank, and it will be designed for about 15psi, not 3000psi. Even damage does not immediately destroy the tube, the air will continue entering and cause this train, designed to operate in a vacuum, to hit a wall of higher pressure and both be probably destroyed and pushed back and destroy whatever is behind it. Same in the other direction as well as soon as the pressure wave destroys it.

Atmospheric pressure is no joke:

• Video Link

Now we can say, oh they'll fix that, there'll be braking, the tubes will be self sealing, robust, yadayadayada. But that all adds to the cost and complexity and the fact this obvious flaw wasn't convincingly explained away in the initial release, let alone now should make a suspicious mind suspiciouser.

[Truenorth00]

Musk came up with the idea to forestall investment in High Speed Rail in California. He's sort of succeeded with that. Now governments that don't actually want to invest in public transport are stealing a page from his book, with companies happy to facilitate this for some $$$. Serious governments would just be talking to the Japanese about their Maglev tech.

If you want to see how absurd the logic is, consider the same argument applied at the local level.

"We aren't going to build subways and LRT. Instead, we're giving free building space to this company developing personal jetpacks. We need to think about the future."

How many of you would buy that?

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by jawagord

I think the Hollywood fallacy of catastrophic explosion/implosion can be removed from your list. A steel cylinder designed for full vacuum and capable of supporting it's own weight is not going to implode from a bullet hole any more than a pressurized cylinder is going to explode from a bullet hole. All that will happen is air will leak in or air will leak out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkhtTPU9KjM

A real world example of this is ISS, which is maintained internally at 1 atm. They have repeatedly had to find and patch holes in ISS, but it has never been in jeopardy of imploding or having all the air sucked out at supersonic speeds or whatever other imagined effect people might have. That's just not how fluid mechanics work.

Implosions/explosions of pressure vessels typically happen when the structural integrity of the vessel is compromised and it is no longer sufficient to withstand the pressure differential. A bullet hole wouldn't be remotely sufficient to cause an implosion.

As for this apparent supersonic wall of air hitting the train... it would require a very big hole to do this. The volume of air passing through the hole is limited by the speed of sound. Once the air leaks into the vessel, it will immediately slow down as anyone who knows basic fluid mechanics would understand. That's not to say that catastrophic effects couldn't occur, but it's by no means inevitable or even likely.

The truth is that there are so many problems with hyperloop that there is really no need to focus on suspect arguments that are built more on Hollywood science than actual science.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by jamincan

As for this apparent supersonic wall of air hitting the train... it would require a very big hole to do this.

No risk of this happening when you build down a highway median.....

Originally Posted by jamincan

The truth is that there are so many problems with hyperloop that there is really no need to focus on suspect arguments that are built more on Hollywood science than actual science.

Absolutely. Yet people keep insisting talking about it and giving these guys money or free land.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by jamincan

A real world example of this is ISS, which is maintained internally at 1 atm. They have repeatedly had to find and patch holes in ISS, but it has never been in jeopardy of imploding or having all the air sucked out at supersonic speeds or whatever other imagined effect people might have. That's just not how fluid mechanics work.

Implosions/explosions of pressure vessels typically happen when the structural integrity of the vessel is compromised and it is no longer sufficient to withstand the pressure differential. A bullet hole wouldn't be remotely sufficient to cause an implosion.

As for this apparent supersonic wall of air hitting the train... it would require a very big hole to do this. The volume of air passing through the hole is limited by the speed of sound. Once the air leaks into the vessel, it will immediately slow down as anyone who knows basic fluid mechanics would understand. That's not to say that catastrophic effects couldn't occur, but it's by no means inevitable or even likely.

I didn't say the tube would implode from a gunshot, jawagord said that's what I was implying.

If there was even an FAQ page somewhere convincingly explaining that they have contemplated various scenarios like multiple gunshots, vehicle or aircraft collision etc and they have determined the risk and appropriate safeguards, that would go a long way to convince skeptics. But none of these companies have done that, so if they haven't even bothered to do a risk assessment, why should they deserve any trust?

Originally Posted by jamincan

The truth is that there are so many problems with hyperloop that there is really no need to focus on suspect arguments that are built more on Hollywood science than actual science.

Absolutely. The biggest red flag is cost. All the other problems just add on to that.

[logan5]

So this technology is not even worth trying to perfect? Why so afraid of at least trying?

Take a look at skeptics of driverless cars 20n years ago, and they were saying much the same things. In fact, it was far more fantastic than hyperloop.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Absolutely. Yet people keep insisting talking about it and giving these guys money or free land.

I'm pretty sure no land nor money was actually given to these guys.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by logan5

So this technology is not even worth trying to perfect? Why so afraid of at least trying?

Take a look at skeptics of driverless cars 20n years ago, and they were saying much the same things. In fact, it was far more fantastic than hyperloop.

Yeah, and driverless cars are further away now than they were then, everyone has stopped hyping them up. But at least driverless cars have proper test demonstrations and lack safety issues and major economic flaws. Hyperloop is not even close.

And no one said don't try. Just don't believe obvious lies. And I am not keen on my government supporting said lies.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm pretty sure no land nor money was actually given to these guys.

"Insisting"... "giving these people free money or land"

Which is right. If Transpod is going to build it's track in Alberta and not elsewhere, there's a strong implication that Alberta must be offering something that other places are not. Perhaps it's our "can do" spirit? Or perhaps it is the gift of money or land.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Yeah, and driverless cars are further away now than they were then, everyone has stopped hyping them up.

That's a ridiculous statement. There have been radical advancements since 20 years ago. There was nothing close to what exists today. And there will be radical advances in the next 20 years that solve issues with hyperloop.

You are sticking your head in the sand for some reason.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by logan5

That's a ridiculous statement. There have been radical advancements since 20 years ago. There was nothing close to what exists today. And there will be radical advances in the next 20 years that solve issues with hyperloop.

You are sticking your head in the sand for some reason.

You're projecting. Mostly because you're ignorant of the technology being discussed and going on faith.

In 20 years we may have driverless cars. That's correct. But it doesn't mean we'll have Hyperloops. Far more likely every single Hyperloop company will be bankrupt in 5 years.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Type projecting. Mostly because you're ignorant of the technology being discussed and going on faith.

In 20 years we may have driverless cars. That's correct. But it doesn't mean we'll have Hyperloops. Far more likely every single Hyperloop company will be bankrupt in 5 years.

Is my faith in science and technology advancing unfounded?

How much did you know of driverless car technology 15 years ago. There's no way you yourself could have predicted what we have accomplished today, just as there is no way you can predict what will be possible 15 years from now, I would say my "faith" in science and technology advancing is just as sound a predictive tool as your vast understanding of science and technology.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by logan5

So this technology is not even worth trying to perfect? Why so afraid of at least trying?

Not for the Canadian taxpayer. We can buy it, if and when somebody perfects it over the next half a century. You want something futuristic? Call up the Japanese and ask about the 600 kph Super Conducting Maglev that has already carried hundreds of thousands of passengers.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCMaglev

[rbt]

.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by logan5

Is my faith in science and technology advancing unfounded?

Yes.

If you asked the layman in 1970, what technology would be like in 50 years, they would have predicted flying cars and had zero clue about the internet, smartphones and GPS. Despite all those technologies actually being theorized by engineers and scientists then.

Similarly, I'm guessing you have no idea that there exists actually feasible fast transport technology other than Hyperloop. While Musk fans were focused on the Hyperloop, the Japanese are building a 285 km long subway using Super Conducting Magnetic Levitation trainsets with a maximum operational speed in excess of 600 kph. This is not theoretical. This is under construction. Portions are already open. It's carried hundreds of thousands of riders. The full first phrase between Tokyo and Nagoya will open by 2027. Let me introduce you to the Chuo Shinkansen line:

• Video Link

Originally Posted by logan5

How much did you know of driverless car technology 15 years ago.

Plenty. But automation is in my interests as an aerospace engineer.

Originally Posted by logan5

There's no way you yourself could have predicted what we have accomplished today, just as there is no way you can predict what will be possible 15 years from now, I would say my "faith" in science and technology advancing is just as sound a predictive tool as your vast understanding of science and technology.

Nonsense. It was damn easy to predict there would be more electric cars on the road, more solar panels on roofs, and smartphones in pockets. Engineers had a good understanding of where this tech was going in 15 years. Heck, there was pressure on the Obama administration to do a lot more for renewables and electric cars, based on these trends. This is not the case with Hyperloop. There is no learning curve. In fact, they are going backwards and slowly devolving to just Maglev.

Here's a prediction. In 5 years, Hyperloop will go back to being a university student fun project. Musk will completely stop talking it about. He hasn't a spent dime on any of the Hyperloop teams. He spends no time on it at all right now. It distracted and put off HSR investments around the world. Mission accomplished.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yes.

If you asked the layman in 1970, what technology would be like in 50 years, they would have predicted flying cars and had zero clue about the internet, smartphones and GPS. Despite all those technologies actually being theorized by engineers and scientists then.

That's an interesting statement.

Because those scientists and engineers had no clue how to build a smartphone or deliver the internet speeds we have today, or even 20 years ago. It was only a theory based on faith that science and technology would find a way.

By the way, hyperloop has been theorized by engineers and scientists, and is being experimented with.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by logan5

That's an interesting statement.

Because those scientists and engineers had no clue how to build a smartphone or deliver the internet speeds we have today, or even 20 years ago. It was only a theory based on faith that science and technology would find a way.

This is a complete misunderstand of how learning curves work for engineers and scientists. They were able to predict where the technology could go because they understood what the very specific technical challenges were and what it would take to overcome them. This is not close to the case with Hyperloop. They are still in the stage where they are scoping the problem. And yet we already know it's busted the fundamental premise of the entire proposal: cheaper than High Speed Rail. Lest we forget, Musk said the Hyperloop would cost a tenth of High Speed Rail. Their own internal documents show that was a lie. So why throw good money after bad?

Originally Posted by logan5

By the way, hyperloop has been theorized by engineers and scientists, and is being experimented with.

Not really. They are literally deleting parts from the original idea. Find me a team that is even experimenting with a turbo molecular pump as originally required. They have basically decided to strip out everything that makes it a Hyperloop. So basically it's a crappy version of the Maglev that the Japanese are building at scale.