VIA Rail

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

wouldn't be great if Maine would cede Aroostook country to Canada?

LOL. And the Northwest Angle, and Point Roberts, and the Alaskan Panhandle. Its never going to happen though.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The following was posted in Ottawa's VIA Rail thread. While still not specifically about VIA Rail, I thought it better in a national thread.



Canadian Pacific posted the followup press release:

https://www.cpr.ca/en/media/canadian-pac...national-containers-from-port-saint-john

It seems like CP is pushing this route for intermodal traffic. It will be interesting to see how successful it is. I would love to see CP reintroduce their Expressway service and extend it to St. John. The shortcut through Maine would be a huge advantage compared to the current truck route to the Atlantic provinces.

Here is a map showing this part of their network.

Could this mean a potential return of the Atlantic? Probably not, but still, a boy can dream.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Could this mean a potential return of the Atlantic? Probably not, but still, a boy can dream.

Here is the thing, trains crossing the boarder these days require long delays for every passenger to clear customs, and the Atlantic crossed the boarder twice each way. Preclearance wouldn't really help as most of the people will be going from Canada to Canada and even they would need to bring a passport.

The only way I could see it having any chance would be to not have any stops in the USA and work out a deal with the American government to allow the train to pass through without stooping to clear customs. Good luck getting that to happen.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The only way I could see it having any chance would be to not have any stops in the USA and work out a deal with the American government to allow the train to pass through without stooping to clear customs. Good luck getting that to happen.

I've crossed at Niagara twice and one of the larger time-sinks was screening the train after removing all the passengers from it. I think they were looking for contraband stuck onto/under the train.

Based on that, they'd probably require secured station access (see Madrid HSR) and a minimum travel speed.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Here is the thing, trains crossing the boarder these days require long delays for every passenger to clear customs, and the Atlantic crossed the boarder twice each way. Preclearance wouldn't really help as most of the people will be going from Canada to Canada and even they would need to bring a passport.

The only way I could see it having any chance would be to not have any stops in the USA and work out a deal with the American government to allow the train to pass through without stooping to clear customs. Good luck getting that to happen.

Only reason to resurrect the Atlantic if not having any stops int he USA would be it might be faster. However, there are more places that need rail than there. That is why even I don't think it'll happen.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by rbt

I've crossed at Niagara twice and one of the larger time-sinks was screening the train after removing all the passengers from it.

Interesting. The Maple Leaf is a bit of an unusual beast in that it has multiple stops on both sides of boarder. Amtrak's Cascades service to Vancouver offers precleance in Pacific Central Station, but even then it isn't perfect as the train still needs to stop for a short inspections at the boarder. ref

Originally Posted by rbt

I think they were looking for contraband stuck onto/under the train.

I wonder how real that concern is and if they have ever found contraband on the outside of the train.

Originally Posted by rbt

Based on that, they'd probably require secured station access (see Madrid HSR) and a minimum travel speed.

Given that the track through Maine is mostly single track, I can't imagine a minimum travel speed is feasible as the train would likely need to stop at a siding. The question is, how much of a risk does this pose?

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Only reason to resurrect the Atlantic if not having any stops int he USA would be it might be faster.

Whether or not there would be any stops in the USA, the only reason to resurrect it would be if it was faster. Not just faster than the Ocean, but faster than driving. The only way that could be possible is if they didn't have any significant delays at the two boarder crossings. I am not sure if this can (or should) be done, but it would be the only way to make it successful.

The only reason this might be feasible is the when driving, the shortcut through Maine is mostly on slower, 2 lane highways. This is still faster than the northern route, it just makes it easier for the train to compete.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

However, there are more places that need rail than there.

Need? Like air, water, food and shelter? Or do you mean some type of first world need?

That is why even I don't think it'll happen.

I agree that I don't think it will happen, but I think it is more likely than say a Regina/Calgary train.

[wave46]

Is VIA mandated by law to maintain service on the lines such as the Sudbury-White River train? Kind of like how Air Canada is mandated to keep its HQ in Montreal?

Or is it just maintained because there's simply no other method of accessing those places?

Just curious.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by wave46

Is VIA mandated by law to maintain service on the lines such as the Sudbury-White River train? Kind of like how Air Canada is mandated to keep its HQ in Montreal?

Or is it just maintained because there's simply no other method of accessing those places?

Just curious.

AFAIK, VIA Rail is mandated to maintain service to remote areas without access to roads. The Sudbury-White River train is an example of one of those routes, as many of the intermediary stops don't have access to roads.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

LOL. And the Northwest Angle, and Point Roberts, and the Alaskan Panhandle. Its never going to happen though.

Who knows, with the unprecedented border restrictions this year that could never have been foreseen in either country's history prior to 2020 and the lack of interest from federal authorities in either country to make an exception for that border crossing, I wouldn't be surprised to see at least a movement for Point Roberts to join Canada come up again after the pandemic. Citizens of Point Roberts are basically trapped in their own community right now, there have been concerns about access to emergency services which are provided by Delta, BC, and perhaps most importantly, kids have no access to in-person school education above the third grade as before the pandemic students were bused to Blaine through BC, or were even attending schools in Delta which they can't get to right now. It is likely not economically feasible to put a middle school or high school in Point Roberts, and may or may not be economically feasible to have an ongoing ferry service to the Washington mainland that isn't either expensive for end users to access or costly to Washington taxpayers.

Unlike with the Alaska loophole, Point Roberts residents are not being allowed to drive into Canada to access the continental United States.

That said Point Roberts also has an important advantage for Americans, and that's the Witness Protection program.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by roger1818

AFAIK, VIA Rail is mandated to maintain service to remote areas without access to roads. The Sudbury-White River train is an example of one of those routes, as many of the intermediary stops don't have access to roads.

I suspected as much.

I imagine the beancounters have also looked at the savings provided by discontinuing the highly-subsidized lines versus the cost of buying out those who are in those regions and found the case lacking. I'm not sure if you have any insight into this.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

That said Point Roberts also has an important advantage for Americans, and that's the Witness Protection program.

That is actually something I've not thought of, but makes a lot of sense.

[Dengler Avenue]

That said Point Roberts also has an important advantage for Americans, and that's the Witness Protection program.

What does it mean??

I imagine the beancounters have also looked at the savings provided by discontinuing the highly-subsidized lines versus the cost of buying out those who are in those regions and found the case lacking.

We buy out communities in Canada too? I've thought it was a practice only in other parts of the world.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

We buy out communities in Canada too? I've thought it was a practice only in other parts of the world.

Newfoundland forcibly bought out communities on the south shore of the island so that the province wouldn't have to provide services to them in the 1960s.

Now, they make it an optional process that requires 100% agreement with the townspeople.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

What does it mean??

I speculate that the Witness Protection Program uses Point Roberts as a buffer zone to keep people it protects from retribution by convicted criminals, yet remaining within the United States.

Since you generally have to cross two land borders to get there, it provides a layer or protection against a convicted criminal from going to exact retribution.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by wave46

Is VIA mandated by law to maintain service on the lines such as the Sudbury-White River train? Kind of like how Air Canada is mandated to keep its HQ in Montreal?

Or is it just maintained because there's simply no other method of accessing those places?

Just curious.

I don't think they have a legal mandate on these routes. They do have instruction from their sole shareholder to do so.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I don't think they have a legal mandate on these routes. They do have instruction from their sole shareholder to do so.

According to the Summary of the 2019-2023 Corporate Plan (the 2020-2024 plan doesn't seem to have been released yet):

1.1 Mandate and Public Policy Role
VIA Rail Canada Inc.’s mandate is to operate the nation’s passenger rail services on behalf of the Government of Canada, as approved through the annual Corporate Plan, providing intercity and long-haul services as well as regional and essential remote rail transportation. The Corporation’s objectives are to manage and to provide a safe, accessible, efficient, reliable, and environmentally sustainable passenger service that meets the needs of travellers in Canada. The Government of Canada determines VIA Rail’s role within the overall structure and services provided by the Federal Government, and provides appropriations to subsidize passenger rail services.

(emphasis added by me)

later on, it goes on to say:

VIA Rail, as part of its mandate, provides service to regions not easily accessible by other modes of transportation.

So while specific routes may not be specified in its mandate, discontinuing a route that is considered "essential" would be considered a violation of its mandate.

While not specifically listed in the most recent Corporate Plan, the Summary of the 2018-2022 Corporate Plan says:

Regional Services
Regional services satisfy the essential transportation needs of communities where alternative and affordable transportation is limited or unavailable. These services are the following:

• Jasper – Prince-Rupert (AB, BC);
• Victoria – Courtenay (BC);
• Winnipeg – Churchill (MB through a portion of SK);
• The Pas – Pukatawagan (MB) - managed by the Keewatin Railway Corporation;
• Sudbury – White River (ON) – Canadian Pacific;
• Montreal – Senneterre / Jonquière (QC); and
• Matapédia – Gaspé (QC).

Note both the Victoria–Courtenay and Matapédia–Gaspé services have not been discontinued but instead "have been suspended for safety reasons." This should be a clue as to how important these routes are to their mandate.

[Truenorth00]

Sure. But I think these are mandated by policy. Not legislation.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Sure. But I think these are mandated by policy. Not legislation.

I am not sure, but even if you are right, does it really matter?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Whether or not there would be any stops in the USA, the only reason to resurrect it would be if it was faster. Not just faster than the Ocean, but faster than driving. The only way that could be possible is if they didn't have any significant delays at the two boarder crossings. I am not sure if this can (or should) be done, but it would be the only way to make it successful.

The only reason this might be feasible is the when driving, the shortcut through Maine is mostly on slower, 2 lane highways. This is still faster than the northern route, it just makes it easier for the train to compete.

Driving is about 12 hours. How much faster is this line, ignoring the border crossing?

Originally Posted by roger1818

Need? Like air, water, food and shelter? Or do you mean some type of first world need?

I agree that I don't think it will happen, but I think it is more likely than say a Regina/Calgary train.

You answered your own question.

What I mean is if Via decided to add another route to it's timetable, this would not be the first one that would best serve the most Canadians.

I'd say its about #5, if not further on my list of priority lines to bring back.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by wave46

I imagine the beancounters have also looked at the savings provided by discontinuing the highly-subsidized lines versus the cost of buying out those who are in those regions and found the case lacking. I'm not sure if you have any insight into this.

I expect most of the people affected are from the First Nations. Even if it was cheaper, do you really think any government would even consider relocating them because where me moved them last time is no longer convenient for us?