Most Canadian / Least Canadian

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Maybe I'm uninformed about this, but I always thought that the stereotype (at least in the west) was that westerners (Americans especially but also Anglophones more broadly) are blunt, straight-talking in a frank confident in-your-face way, and easterners (Asians etc.) were the ones who were indirect, obsessed with not sticking out, "saving face" etc.

Caveat: my experience with east asian cultural norms is based primarily on China (where I lived for several years many moons ago), informed only by some travel to Japan and Korea. However, I think its fair to say that, in east Asia, there are very different standards of politeness for friends, family, colleagues than there is for everyday interactions with restaurant staff, bus drivers, strangers on the street, etc.

In China, it is perfectly acceptable to bark one's order at the waitress without wasting time and energy on small talk.

I think its actually pretty acceptable in the parts of Central Asia and the Middle East that I've been to. Even in Western Europe, I don't find that there is the same expectation of folksiness and small talk during "service interactions" like one finds in North America.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Maybe I'm uninformed about this, but I always thought that the stereotype (at least in the west) was that westerners (Americans especially but also Anglophones more broadly) are blunt, straight-talking in a frank confident in-your-face way, and easterners (Asians etc.) were the ones who were indirect, obsessed with not sticking out, "saving face" etc.

My understanding is that it depends on the country in Asia.

The Chinese have no problem shoving to get to the front of the line. That's just how it's done. Do that in Japan and I don't think you'll get the same reaction.

Definitely service in Europe is more to the point. How much of that is a language thing (hard to be 'folksy' if you don't have very good command of the language) or a culture thing is up for debate. Also, the expectation in North America is that the tip is commensurate to the level of service, so the incentive is to warm up to the customer. The overly fake-ish niceness (sickly and sweet is how I describe it) galls me more than a professional, but distant attitude.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

Caveat: my experience with east asian cultural norms is based primarily on China (where I lived for several years many moons ago), informed only by some travel to Japan and Korea. However, I think its fair to say that, in east Asia, there are very different standards of politeness for friends, family, colleagues than there is for everyday interactions with restaurant staff, bus drivers, strangers on the street, etc.

In China, it is perfectly acceptable to bark one's order at the waitress without wasting time and energy on small talk.

I think its actually pretty acceptable in the parts of Central Asia and the Middle East that I've been to. Even in Western Europe, I don't find that there is the same expectation of folksiness and small talk during "service interactions" like one finds in North America.

Originally Posted by wave46

My understanding is that it depends on the country in Asia.

The Chinese have no problem shoving to get to the front of the line. That's just how it's done. Do that in Japan and I don't think you'll get the same reaction.

Definitely service in Europe is more to the point. How much of that is a language thing (hard to be 'folksy' if you don't have very good command of the language) or a culture thing is up for debate. Also, the expectation in North America is that the tip is commensurate to the level of service, so the incentive is to warm up to the customer. The overly fake-ish niceness (sickly and sweet is how I describe it) galls me more than a professional, but distant attitude.

This must be one of those things where the "old countries" differ a lot from the stereotype of the culture of the diasporas.

Because in all those cultural sensitivity/multiculturalism/cultural differences discussions I've heard about in Canada and in the US too (when I worked and studied in school), the stereotype of "Asian culture" discussed is super indirect, polite etc." and also "hesitant to speak out/complain if things bother you".

To the point where you hear about how being loud, brash, demanding and frank for Asian Canadians/Americans is stereotyped as "assimilating" to western/American culture.

So, I must be missing something in perception, or maybe immigrants/descendants of immigrants from Asia who arrived/assimilated to the west are culturally very different from Asians in Asia.

Perhaps, it's not surprising -- you have lots of people whose norms are different than the old country -- e.g. Dutch Americans and Canadians are on the socially conservative side statistically, actual Dutch people in the old country, stereotypically left on things ranging from environmentalism to sexual liberty to marijuana are like the mirror opposite.

I'll defer to you guys' knowledge about East Asia, but I've actually heard similar things from classmates whose immigrant parents' cultures were not quite what they expected in the old country (e.g. Asian Canadians who thought "Asian culture" was more suitable to quiet/shy people until they visited crowded/talkative/pushy places in Asia).

[Acajack]

To anyone who sees for the first time grown adults in India aggressively push pre-schoolers out of their way and to the ground to get on or off a bus, it's a bit of a shock!

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

To anyone who sees for the first time grown adults in India aggressively push pre-schoolers out of their way and to the ground to get on or off a bus, it's a bit of a shock!

What, really?

[Capsicum]

Okay, this is indeed kind of weird to me. Hearing the stereotype of the nice, polite, collectivistic, harmony-valuing (some may criticize this as "model minority" when it comes to Asian minorities in the west) easterner all the time growing up, vs. the brash, pushy, "every man for himself" stereotype I'm now hearing not just here on this forum but elsewhere.

It's like a 180-flip of the stereotypes I was socialized by mass media to believe.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

That's interesting how residential built-form style can match up not only on both sides of the border in neighbouring Provinces-States but also even with States that don't border directly with Canada but are in similar regions/geographic areas of continent.

I've put together a collage of 3 cities, Saskatoon, Great Falls in Montana which is a couple hours drive south of the border where I grew up in Saskatchewan, and Scottsdale in Arizona which is a couple hundred kms from Mexico.
Each city has two pics in the collage. Can you match up which pics goes to each city?

A general good rule of thumb for matching is Scottsdale is an affluent city in a desert environment and has a fair amount of drier foliage types and generally less grass lawns, more stucco and clay/terracotta in houses where as the further north you go, you get more wood siding and asphalt roofing shingles etc.


google maps

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Top left - Bottom Right Saskatoon
Top Right - Bottom Left - Great Falls
Middle - Phoenix

You're a Champion! you got the best score out of everyone!
4 out of 6 correct! certain things in the pics are a direct give away, single mailbox on the street is dead give away it's American, blue box recycle less likely in America etc.

Middle left is actually Great Falls,
Bottom left is Scottsdale...

https://www.google.ca/maps/@52.11330...2!8i6656?hl=en

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Fou....7256936?hl=en

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Gre....3007715?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.3688...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.ca/maps/@33.59895...4!8i8192?hl=en

https://www.google.ca/maps/@52.11091...2!8i6656?hl=en

Originally Posted by hipster duck

No, I was in Sudbury for a few days last summer and used it as a base to explore nearby sites like Killarney and Onaping Falls. I ate at Tucos and the stores on Kathleen street were a pleasant surprise.

Kathleen street as a destination street could be a hard sell to most SSP poster on here, but I love the fact Sudbury is fostering it's more promising streets.

Most posters on this forum wouldn't be able to recognize a Prince of Wales National Award winning Heritage Leadership town, if they ever came across one.

https://www.swiftcurrentonline.com/l...heritage-award




I love seeing what other cities have for eclectic fair when it comes to hipster streets. Broadway Ave in Saskatoon has for decades and now also 20th street has gentrified even in the short time that I've been here.

Neighbourhood around Broadway sells it's self as being closest to shopping, school, work, downtown etc.

Originally Posted by CivicBlues
That's why I suggest hesitant Asia new comers to start with a place like Singapore, Malaysia, or Hong Kong. Places where English is widely spoken, infrastructure is familiar and food is delicious . Or heck, just dive right in like so many 20-somethings from Woop Woop, Australia and head straight for Thailand and Vietnam.

Hong Kong or particularly Singapore is a great spring board to Asia, I've been several times to Singapore and feel perfectly comfortable there, It's like a utopian city in a lot of respects, very clean and safe and people are friendly.

Hopping to Bali for a week is easy from Singapore, just hire a driver to take you around the island to see volcanoes and temples etc, plus Bali has all the conveniences of what any traveler would expect.

With smart phones translating signs etc is super easy, no excuses to avoid any where because of not knowing the language.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

This must be one of those things where the "old countries" differ a lot from the stereotype of the culture of the diasporas.

Because in all those cultural sensitivity/multiculturalism/cultural differences discussions I've heard about in Canada and in the US too (when I worked and studied in school), the stereotype of "Asian culture" discussed is super indirect, polite etc." and also "hesitant to speak out/complain if things bother you".

To the point where you hear about how being loud, brash, demanding and frank for Asian Canadians/Americans is stereotyped as "assimilating" to western/American culture.

So, I must be missing something in perception, or maybe immigrants/descendants of immigrants from Asia who arrived/assimilated to the west are culturally very different from Asians in Asia.

Perhaps, it's not surprising -- you have lots of people whose norms are different than the old country -- e.g. Dutch Americans and Canadians are on the socially conservative side statistically, actual Dutch people in the old country, stereotypically left on things ranging from environmentalism to sexual liberty to marijuana are like the mirror opposite.

I'll defer to you guys' knowledge about East Asia, but I've actually heard similar things from classmates whose immigrant parents' cultures were not quite what they expected in the old country (e.g. Asian Canadians who thought "Asian culture" was more suitable to quiet/shy people until they visited crowded/talkative/pushy places in Asia).

Well, suffice to say, East Asian culture is incredibly complex and varied. The culture of China alone is many thousands of years old and includes a huge and diverse geographical area, including dozens and dozens of ethnic minorities. Chinese culture is also currently in a period of significant change and upheaval (still feeling the effects of the Cultural Revolution, nearly a hundred years of Communist Party rule, and more recently the opening up to the West).

In particular, I think that the history of Chinese thought and philosophy includes both collectivism and individualism, and that these two forces continue to shape Chinese culture in complex ways.

Other East Asian cultures are heavily influenced by "Chinese culture", of course, but are also influenced by their own local histories, geographies, experiences etc.

Of course, I am very far from an expert on such things and am mostly just speaking from my limited experiences and casual reading (on a topic that interests me).

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Okay, this is indeed kind of weird to me. Hearing the stereotype of the nice, polite, collectivistic, harmony-valuing (some may criticize this as "model minority" when it comes to Asian minorities in the west) easterner all the time growing up, vs. the brash, pushy, "every man for himself" stereotype I'm now hearing not just here on this forum but elsewhere.

It's like a 180-flip of the stereotypes I was socialized by mass media to believe.

The problem with mass media is that it doesn't (or can't) really distill beyond what the lowest common denominator will bother to appreciate.

So, a lot of media will simply drive the simplest narratives. In the case of accessible East Asians, Japan (later South Korea) was typically the model in the past as China was quite closed to the Western world. It drove a narrative that didn't necessarily jive with all the complexity and contradictions that dozens of cultures and peoples have.

[CivicBlues]

There's also something to be said about selection bias as well. Economic Immigrants of all origins to the New World likely had similar values (thrift, hard-work, overvaluation of educational credentials, undervaluation of political participation) Of course, many times these values are flipped around within a generation or two. But to ascribe such values and behavior to a specific race or nationality completely ignores the huge diversity in values and mannerisms in the homeland.

If you were a completely ignorant of the outside world living in the the US and they only allowed in tech workers and doctors from India and no one else, then you'd have the impression that all Indians are talented borderline geniuses. Put simply, a lazy poor person from India would be highly unlikely to make it to the shores of North America.

Same way I feel that the "Canadian Traveller" stereotype may be overstated. I've encountered many well-spoken, intelligent, contentious Canadian and American travellers abroad (I'd like think many of us are) in certain off-beat destinations - Mainly due to the fact you'd have to have a certain level of means and open mindedness to find yourself in such a place. In other destinations (such as all-inclusive resorts in the Caribbean/Mexico, many top tier European/Asian destinations, etc.) you can find the same type of boorish, loud mouth behavior from Canadians that you would ascribe to Americans.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

What, really?

Oh yeah. You often see Indians queuing by pressing up against the person ahead of them - it’s to leave no space that would allow someone to butt in!

[MolsonExport]

The overseas drunken Canadian is only very slightly less obnoxious than the drunken overseas American. The reason being is that the obnoxious drunk American is more likely to start yelling about how the "United States is the greatest country in the WORLD!!" because of its military might and "freedumb", whereas the obnoxious drunk Canadian will nauseatingly argue that Canada is better than the United States simply because it is not the United States. Both are awful, but the latter lacks the "WootWoot USA! USA!" factor.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The overseas drunken Canadian is only very slightly less obnoxious than the drunken overseas American. The reason being is that the obnoxious drunk American is more likely to start yelling about how the "United States is the greatest country in the WORLD!!" because of its military might and "freedumb", whereas the obnoxious drunk Canadian will nauseatingly argue that Canada is better than the United States simply because it is not the United States. Both are awful, but the latter lacks the "WootWoot USA! USA!" factor.

It's definitely mostly a question of the type of tourist.

However I find that even the conscientious American traveler often has weirdly insular views of other countries. I think it is hard for Americans to distinguish between things that are American and things that apply around the world, or American views of countries versus what those countries are actually like.

Canada is mostly passive in the world and there's no expectation that Canada will be the best at anything, plus we know what it's like to be on the "outside", seeing ads and the like that are not for us.

Another minor thing I notice with French in particular is that a lot of English Canadians have a much better baseline than Americans do, even though the English Canadian baseline can kind of feel like 0 compared to Francophones. I wonder if Canadians on the whole do a little better with foreign languages. I guess the US is starting to have more bilingual Spanish materials so maybe this is changing.

[kwoldtimer]

To be fair, drunken Brit tourists can make the NAmerican versions seem benign. Germans aren’t much better.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

To be fair, drunken Brit tourists can make the NAmerican versions seem benign. Germans aren’t much better.

The American "international" traveler may actually be a bit better than the pre-Brexit British traveler in another Euro country like Spain. It's cheap and easy to get to Spain from the UK and the UK doesn't have sunshine type holiday destinations, unlike the US. Low end sunshine destination travel is domestic for Americans. They drive to Florida or maybe places like the Gulf Coast or Southwest/California.

I've never been to a cheap UK sunshine destination spot but I have had the misfortune of being on budget flights from Spain to the UK with that group.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by someone123

The American "international" traveler may actually be a bit better than the pre-Brexit British traveler in another Euro country like Spain. It's cheap and easy to get to Spain from the UK and the UK doesn't have sunshine type holiday destinations, unlike the US. Low end sunshine destination travel is domestic for Americans. They drive to Florida or maybe places like the Gulf Coast or Southwest/California.

I've never been to a cheap UK sunshine destination spot but I have had the misfortune of being on budget flights from Spain to the UK with that group.

I also think that the age range when it's acceptable to get piss drunk in public and make an absolute fool of yourself is greater in the UK than it is in the US.

In the US, you can do this as an undergrad on spring break. As soon as you graduate you have a pile of debt to work off, and that first job at Thrifty Car Rental has to pay your healthcare and only gives you 2 weeks vacation, so you have to grow up quick. I think this is part of the reason why you don't see many Americans in their mid-20s on vacation in foreign countries.

OT, but the amount of drunken revelry going on at nighttime in British cities was an eye opener for me. The UK is one of the few OECD countries where alcohol consumption has actually increased in the past 20 years.

[MolsonExport]

from my experiences, yes, overseas drunken Brits are worse than overseas drunken Canadians/Americans.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Okay, this is indeed kind of weird to me. Hearing the stereotype of the nice, polite, collectivistic, harmony-valuing (some may criticize this as "model minority" when it comes to Asian minorities in the west) easterner all the time growing up, vs. the brash, pushy, "every man for himself" stereotype I'm now hearing not just here on this forum but elsewhere.

It's like a 180-flip of the stereotypes I was socialized by mass media to believe.

East Asia is huge, and can be very different from place to place. In Japan, Taiwan and Korea, you're not going to be barking orders at people. Those three cultures pride themselves on civility.

China is/was totally different. When I moved to Shanghai in 2005, it was still pretty rough around the edges in the service world. Customers and servers came off as both very rude to each other. Now compare that to 2020 Shanghai, and it feels a world apart. Servers are far more friendly, and customers, save a few, are more well-behaved.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by giallo

East Asia is huge, and can be very different from place to place. In Japan, Taiwan and Korea, you're not going to be barking orders at people. Those three cultures pride themselves on civility.

China is/was totally different. When I moved to Shanghai in 2005, it was still pretty rough around the edges in the service world. Customers and servers came off as both very rude to each other. Now compare that to 2020 Shanghai, and it feels a world apart. Servers are far more friendly, and customers, save a few, are more well-behaved.

Shanghai is probably well ahead of the curve though. I was in Xian, Chengdu and Beijing two years ago, and most restaurant interactions involved much of the chain-smoking and brusqueness that I fondly remembered.

EDIT: I'll put it this way: It was certainly a lot more genteel than when I first lived in Beijing in ~2000 - 2003, but it still shocked my China-virgin wife.

[giallo]

^ That's true.

I've always found Chengdu to be pretty good though. Chongqing, on the other hand.....