Most Canadian / Least Canadian

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Montreal's immigrant cohort is inherently sole-sourced from Francophone countries (generally-speaking), thereby providing a less diverse field of immigrants on the whole compared to other Canadian cities. It's not l'science du rocket.

Feel free to twist more of my words in five consecutive posts, though. Nobody else is allowed to have an opinion on Quebec on this forum anyway without going through the Quebecois Ninja Warrior gauntlet of fifteen pages of humming and hawing.

It's not about anything particularly Québécois mon chéri (I can insert cute French phrases too!) it's about facts.

You claim that Quebec is sole-sourcing immigrants from francophone countries, but the top 15 countries of immigrants in the past few years are:

China France Syria Iran Algeria Haiti Morocco India Philippines Cameroon Côte-d'Ivoire Colombia Tunisia Lebanon Egypt

Some of those are francophone countries, some are not. None of them provides over 10% of our immigrants.

As I mentioned already, 25% of Canada's immigrants are coming from India, with around 10% each from China and the Philippines. Most of these are going to Toronto and Vancouver. (And some to Winnipeg in the case of Filipinos. That's just under half of all immigrants coming from just three countries.

It's therefore hard to believe that Montreal's cross-section of immigrants is any less variably sourced or diverse than that of other Canadian cities.

You've certainly undergone an interesting personal transition, from the New Brunswick guy who lived in Ottawa to GTA newbie who defends Toronto's honour like Superman and Batman defend Metropolis and Gotham City.

[TorontoDrew]

I keep seeing Niagara Falls in top spot as the Least Canadian City or municipality in the nation and I get it totally, but I could also see it being near the top as most Canadian as well.

I won't bother focusing on the obvious things like Clifton Hill and Garish Hotels as they have all been covered.

Some of the reasons why it could sit at the other of the spectrum depending on who you ask are numerous.

The very first Capital of Upper Canada was Niagara, first named Newark, then the town Niagara, finally taking the name of Niagara on the lake. The entire region in and around the Falls is steeped in history with battlefields and graveyards full of loyalist and American soldiers who both fought for control of Upper Canada's southern border.

Also just west along the river there is a place called "the Crossing" this was the terminus of a major trunk of the underground railroad. Canada was just the second country to abolish slavery and the documents signed ending the trade of humans as property was signed at the Swan in near Fort George.

Once you remove yourself the neon lights and side shows near the actual falls you will find a city and region very proud of their past and how they helped shape the nation we now know. Tourists from oversee's most likely find it to be a very Canadian experience full of Canadian Flags, Maple syrup treats, and historical plaques. If you ever have the chance Bike from the Falls to Niagara on the lake, stop at the historical sites along the way and it will fill you with Canadian pride.

Some fun historical facts about Niagara.

-This is where Laura Secord walked 20 miles to inform British troops in Queenston Heights about an impending American Invasion

-In 1913 The Toronto Hydro Station was built making it the first fully Canadian owned and operated facility providing power from the falls to Toronto.

-in 1925 The Queenston - Chippawa Hydro Station was constructed making it the first large scale Hydro Electric Plant in the world.

source: https://www.snopes.com

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

I keep seeing Niagara Falls in top spot as the Least Canadian City or municipality in the nation and I get it totally, but I could also see it being near the top as most Canadian as well.

I won't bother focusing on the obvious things like Clifton Hill and Garish Hotels as they have all been covered.

Some of the reasons why it could sit at the other of the spectrum depending on who you ask are numerous.

The very first Capital of Upper Canada was Niagara, first named Newark, then the town Niagara, finally taking the name of Niagara on the lake. The entire region in and around the Falls is steeped in history with battlefields and graveyards full of loyalist and American soldiers who both fought for control of Upper Canada's southern border.

Also just west along the river there is a place called "the Crossing" this was the terminus of a major trunk of the underground railroad. Canada was just the second country to abolish slavery and the documents signed ending the trade of humans as property was signed at the Swan in near Fort George.

Once you remove yourself the neon lights and side shows near the actual falls you will find a city and region very proud of their past and how they helped shape the nation we now know.

Some fun historical facts about Niagara.

-This is where Laura Secord walked 20 miles to inform British troops in Queenston Heights about an impending American Invasion

-In 1913 The Toronto Hydro Station was built making it the first fully Canadian owned and operated facility providing power from the falls to Toronto.

-in 1925 The Queenston - Chippawa Hydro Station was constructed making it the first large scale Hydro Electric Plant in the world.

source: https://www.snopes.com

If you talk to people from Niagara or Windsor, they'll actually tell you they're among the proudest Canadians because they live right next to the U.S. and can see what it's like every day with their own eyes.

Canadian pride and boosterism aside, they tend to be very influenced by the U.S. whether they realize it or not.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canadian pride and boosterism aside, they tend to be very influenced by the U.S. whether they realize it or not.

And visa versa. People in Buffalo drink Tim Hortons and listen to the Hip.

[Maldive]

Don't want to start a Most like Canada/Least like Canada in Australasia/World thread, but New Zealand has always been on my bucket list, much more-so than Oz.

People one meets in world travel (and here at home) obviously impacts that list and so far Kiwis score an even 100% for me (went to school with a couple of 'em too). I sometimes think of NZ when Canada is described as the "mouse living next door to an elephant", though at least NZ is somewhat protected from Oz by a few thousand miles of sea water (and a 5 hour flight).

Unfortunately I have been jaded by some bad experiences interacting with (stereotypical) Oz-Americans, such as being (somewhat ironically) told to "f*ck off Yank" at the Taj Mahal and an almost a brother-in-law who hated Canada but taught me to speak Oz: "Sydney, Sydney, Sydney.. sips wine.. Sydney, Sydney".

Being fiercely patriotic, I have also taken issue with the Aussie-past-time of using the word "Canadian" as a pejorative term. Full disclosure, I watch the brilliant films of Baz Luhrmann in secret. Kiwis rock.

[hipster duck]

Even in the non-touristy parts, NF looks American. These kinds of wooden four square houses look like they belong in Buffalo.

This equivalent neighbourhood in nearby St Catharines is more Ontario-like, and could be in any Ontario city from Toronto to Orillia to Ottawa (differences in lot sizes, street widths and millions of dollars in property value notwithstanding).

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Even in the non-touristy parts, NF looks American. These kinds of wooden four square houses look like they belong in Buffalo.

This equivalent neighbourhood in nearby St Catharines is more Ontario-like, and could be in any Ontario city from Toronto to Orillia to Ottawa (differences in lot sizes, street widths and millions of dollars in property value notwithstanding).

Hamilton also has very American looking homes.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

And visa versa. People in Buffalo drink Tim Hortons and listen to the Hip.

This is true to a point, though I think some Canadians tend to overstate this a lot.

The border is a lot more permeable in one direction than in the other.

Niagara Falls and Windsor feel way more "American"* than Buffalo and Detroit feel "Canadian". And I don't think it's just about city size.

*Though the "America" they resemble is not necessarily the America of Buffalo/Detroit.

[ue]

I feel like the obvious answer to 'Most Canadian' is perhaps Winnipeg. Edmonton, Montreal, Ottawa, and Moncton are honourable mentions.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Even in the non-touristy parts, NF looks American. These kinds of wooden four square houses look like they belong in Buffalo.

This equivalent neighbourhood in nearby St Catharines is more Ontario-like, and could be in any Ontario city from Toronto to Orillia to Ottawa (differences in lot sizes, street widths and millions of dollars in property value notwithstanding).

That's a good point. Also, on the touristy areas of Niagara, there's something to the specific aesthetic of Clifton Hill/Fallsview in the types of tourist traps, the chains, the garishness, the cheapness that make it feel like a very stereotypical hick American tourist trap town, like Branson, Missouri or Wall, South Dakota. The Hard Rock Cafes and TGI Fridays really seal the deal.

It has a very different feel/aesthetic than more typically Canadian-styled tourist traps, like Banff, Whistler, Magog, PEI, or even nearby in Ontario, places like Huntsville. More Beaver Tails and Moose Trinket Shops. Or, even closer to Niagara Falls, Niagara-on-the-Lake feels more typically Canadian.

I noticed it a lot between Alaska and the Yukon. The way towns like Ketchikan or Skagway cater to the boomer cruise ship crowd produces a different feel than Dawson City or Whitehorse or Carcross. Even the restaurant selection is entirely different (and much worse ).

Niagara Falls is a good contender for 'Least Canadian'. Windsor is another. I can see the argument for BC cities like Victoria, Vancouver, Kelowna, Abbotsford, but they don't feel exactly American (not that that is necessarily the criteria for being less Canadian looking).

I think the SW Ontario cities most directly influenced by the United States (Niagara Falls, Windsor, Sarnia) as well as British Columbian cities which are neither more Americanized nor distinctly Canadian in the same way as that which lies east of the BC-Alberta line are less Canadian seeming for different reasons.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is true to a point, though I think some Canadians tend to overstate this a lot.

The border is a lot more permeable in one direction than in the other.

Niagara Falls and Windsor feel way more "American"* than Buffalo and Detroit feel "Canadian". And I don't think it's just about city size.

*Though the "America" they resemble is not necessarily the America of Buffalo/Detroit.

what 'America' do you think they resemble more?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

And visa versa. People in Buffalo drink Tim Hortons and listen to the Hip.

No they don't. If there are any, they're outliers. People in Western New York don't pay any attention to Canada. They might go to the odd Broadway-style show in Toronto because it's closer, though.

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Hamilton also has very American looking homes.

No it doesn't. You look at a street like this...

https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.90708...7i13312!8i6656

...and you know that you're in the Midwestern US, and that nowhere in Canada looks like this at all.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ue

I think the SW Ontario cities most directly influenced by the United States (Niagara Falls, Windsor, Sarnia) as well as British Columbian cities which are neither more Americanized nor distinctly Canadian in the same way as that which lies east of the BC-Alberta line are less Canadian seeming for different reasons.

The Lower Mainland has a lot of American influence. It is a border region. People here tend to go on road trips to the US, or quick shopping trips, and there are a lot of American chains. In Vancouver proper the Asian businesses are more prominent but head east and the focus shifts toward American chains.

This was particularly noticeable coming from Atlantic Canada where there aren't even chains like Denny's. Many American chains that operate in Canada do not make it east of Ontario.

Western Canada has Safeway too. And Starbucks hit earlier here in Vancouver. People tend to think of the Tim Hortons -> Starbucks transition as being a movement toward more upscale coffee. But Starbucks is not great and many cities have better independent coffee shops. Some of the independents died when Starbucks was brought in. I guess Second Cup is a roughly analogous Canadian chain.

I have noticed that some American companies operating in Canada use generic BLM or other political advertisements and materials here. I'd guess some of those are designed for the US market and then pushed out to all locations.

[ue]

Originally Posted by someone123

The Lower Mainland has a lot of American influence. It is a border region. People here tend to go on road trips to the US, or quick shopping trips, and there are a lot of American chains. In Vancouver proper the Asian businesses are more prominent but head east and the focus shifts toward American chains.

This was particularly noticeable coming from Atlantic Canada where there aren't even chains like Denny's. Many American chains that operate in Canada do not make it east of Ontario.

Western Canada has Safeway too. And Starbucks hit earlier here in Vancouver. People tend to think of the Tim Hortons -> Starbucks transition as being a movement toward more upscale coffee. But Starbucks is not great and many cities have better independent coffee shops. Some of the independents died when Starbucks was brought in. I guess Second Cup is a roughly analogous Canadian chain.

I'm not discounting this. There's a fair bit of overlap between the Pacific Northwest and Southern BC. Vancouver and Seattle are more culturally similar than Toronto is to Buffalo or Detroit or Rochester. But the policies and development history and certain cultural nuances (hockey is still popular in BC while Seattle doesn't even have an NHL team...yet) make it so that a city like Seattle is still very American-styled and would not exist here and vice-versa for Vancouver (or Victoria).

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's not about anything particularly Québécois mon chéri (I can insert cute French phrases too!) it's about facts.

You claim that Quebec is sole-sourcing immigrants from francophone countries, but the top 15 countries of immigrants in the past few years are:

China France Syria Iran Algeria Haiti Morocco India Philippines Cameroon Côte-d'Ivoire Colombia Tunisia Lebanon Egypt

Some of those are francophone countries, some are not. None of them provides over 10% of our immigrants.

As I mentioned already, 25% of Canada's immigrants are coming from India, with around 10% each from China and the Philippines. Most of these are going to Toronto and Vancouver. (And some to Winnipeg in the case of Filipinos. That's just under half of all immigrants coming from just three countries.

It's therefore hard to believe that Montreal's cross-section of immigrants is any less variably sourced or diverse than that of other Canadian cities.

You've certainly undergone an interesting personal transition, from the New Brunswick guy who lived in Ottawa to GTA newbie who defends Toronto's honour like Superman and Batman defend Metropolis and Gotham City.

Isn’t there a rule for immigrants though, that you have to live in an assigned city for at least a year? So I imagine a Chinese immigrant living in Montreal is likely to move to Toronto or Vancouver after their required time in Montreal is done.

I have seen very very few Asians of any sort and in Montreal

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's not about anything particularly Québécois mon chéri (I can insert cute French phrases too!) it's about facts.

You claim that Quebec is sole-sourcing immigrants from francophone countries, but the top 15 countries of immigrants in the past few years are:

China France Syria Iran Algeria Haiti Morocco India Philippines Cameroon Côte-d'Ivoire Colombia Tunisia Lebanon Egypt

Some of those are francophone countries, some are not. None of them provides over 10% of our immigrants.

As I mentioned already, 25% of Canada's immigrants are coming from India, with around 10% each from China and the Philippines. Most of these are going to Toronto and Vancouver. (And some to Winnipeg in the case of Filipinos. That's just under half of all immigrants coming from just three countries.

It's therefore hard to believe that Montreal's cross-section of immigrants is any less variably sourced or diverse than that of other Canadian cities.

You've certainly undergone an interesting personal transition, from the New Brunswick guy who lived in Ottawa to GTA newbie who defends Toronto's honour like Superman and Batman defend Metropolis and Gotham City.

Fewer than half of immigrants to Montreal are francophone, no?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by logan5

Isn’t there a rule for immigrants though, that you have to live in an assigned city for at least a year? So I imagine a Chinese immigrant living in Montreal is likely to move to Toronto or Vancouver after their required time in Montreal is done.

I have seen very very few Asians of any sort and in Montreal

No such rule that I’m aware of - it would be unenforceable.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by someone123

On the other hand I don't think that just being large or "diverse" is in and of itself that interesting or unique, and Toronto did hitch itself to that wagon. The notion that Toronto has some kind of near-monopoly on immigration in Canada is very out of date and it was at best half-truth decades ago. In 2020 this has hit an absurd level where people in the 50% immigrant town act like people in the 20% immigrant town are sheltered rustics who would be shocked to see a non-white person. Also, we have the US right next door.

Americans do this all the time. For example, they'll say Seattle is a very "white" city though it's two thirds "non-Hispanic white".

For whatever historical reasons, the US highlights immigrant diversity less than historically underrepresented groups that may not necessarily be immigrants (e.g. African Americans) so tend to think of having a "black" presence as contributing to diversity more as an underrepresented minority than certain other groups (e.g. an IT worker from India).

But we don't see this for Canada -- people don't count say a First Nations or Métis person as contributing to diversity more than a refugee from Syria or a Filipino worker.

And Americans seem to count linguistic diversity less than Canada, except for where presence of the "Spanish" language is a proxy for Hispanic presence. Canada has not only the Francophone presence but lots of indigenous languages, immigrant languages etc. more so than the US, but this is rarely highlighted in diversity comparisons. The fact that Canada has a French-English binary like Switzerland has a French, German, Italian three-way split and India has 22 languages with official status seems to count for its own type of diversity that seems less popular to acknowledge than "ancestral/race" diversity -- why should lots of races of people who speak English count more than lots of people who speak lots of languages?

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by ue

Also, on the touristy areas of Niagara, there's something to the specific aesthetic of Clifton Hill/Fallsview in the types of tourist traps, the chains, the garishness, the cheapness that make it feel like a very stereotypical hick American tourist trap town, like Branson, Missouri or Wall, South Dakota. The Hard Rock Cafes and TGI Fridays really seal the deal.

It has a very different feel/aesthetic than more typically Canadian-styled tourist traps, like Banff, Whistler, Magog, PEI, or even nearby in Ontario, places like Huntsville. More Beaver Tails and Moose Trinket Shops. Or, even closer to Niagara Falls, Niagara-on-the-Lake feels more typically Canadian.

That's very astute. There's Canadian trashy tourism and there's American trashy tourism, and Niagara Falls, Ontario has a very trashy American tourist vibe.

Another thing I notice every time I'm there is the proliferation of license plates from southern US states that I rarely see in the rest of Canada. I always see license plates from states like Kentucky, Tennessee, Missouri, South Carolina - I don't think I've ever seen plates from those states in the GTA or elsewhere in Canada. This means that Americans from those places step foot into Canada to view the Falls and then cross back into the US again.

[hipster duck]

NFON gets a lot of the crap of the US without the good.

Windsor is a little luckier. They're basically an extension of the Detroit metro, but they have some of Detroit's good features too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

what 'America' do you think they resemble more?

You need to skip over the border cities in order to find anything resembling American peers for southern Ontario cities. There are black people in Niagara and Windsor but not nearly as many as Buffalo and Detroit where they are a much larger share of the population and their presence defines the character of large swathes of the city.

Places like Fort Wayne IN, Appleton WI or Ann Arbor MI (without the college town charm) come to mind. Though I don't think these are the best analogies.