Most Canadian / Least Canadian

[Maldive]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You basically stepped into what I was getting at.

I think a valid question is whether Toronto is a world city that is Canadian or just some random world city. I would argue Toronto is more of the latter.

Paris London NYC Tokyo are bona fide world cities that act as the interfaces of their nations and their cultures with the wider world.

I tend to agree with you, bearing in mind London, Paris and Tokyo are exponentially larger cities that are also administrative HQs.

The thread: the very definition of "being Canadian" is obviously fluid and is perhaps changing (with some regional exceptions) faster than a large chunk of the world's "being whatever". Can being (most or least) Canadian now include more love for basketball (thanks Dr. Naismith), than love for the CFL, rather than a laundry list of internet stereotypes or a specific 1867 to the present declaration?

Random thoughts from a random world city.

*We sometimes forget that NYC (sorta like Toronto) is not exactly beloved (understood?) by the rest of planet america, and lots of (non-colonizing) Brits choose curry over roast beef or fish ' chips.

[SignalHillHiker]

Curry is so ingrained over there now I bet there are Brits who assume it’s English in origin.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by Maldive

I tend to agree with you, bearing in mind London, Paris and Tokyo are exponentially larger cities that are also administrative HQs.

The thread: the very definition of "being Canadian" is obviously fluid and is perhaps changing (with some regional exceptions) faster than a large chunk of the world's "being whatever". Can being (most or least) Canadian now include more love for basketball (thanks Dr. Naismith), than love for the CFL, rather than a laundry list of internet stereotypes or a specific 1867 to the present declaration?

Random thoughts from a random world city.

*We sometimes forget that NYC (sorta like Toronto) is not exactly beloved (understood?) by the rest of planet america, and lots of (non-colonizing) Brits choose curry over roast beef or fish ' chips.

Most of you are undervaluing Canadianess in the forest<trees way you can only pull off from deep inside a culture.

I'm reminded of an infographic comparing culture to an iceberg, with all the superficial things—language, food, music—poking above the water, while the bulk of the culture lies beneath. Of course, all anglo cultures connect as a vast iceberg; deep enough it's all just Calvinism. Obviously you'd see similarities between Aukland and Toronto. You see London reflected in Toronto if you straighten the streets out. You see Amsterdam in New York too.

None of that takes away from the big part of the iceberg that is just Canadian. It's something you can't exactly analyze, but when you meet a Filipino dude from Winnipeg who hasn't lived in Canada for 20 years and in some ineffable way he reminds you of Gord Downie, you know it's there.

So, what is a random global city, anyway? Cairo? Singapore? Is Toronto really more like these places than anywhere else in Canada? If you look past the generic aspects of all big cities, it's not.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Maldive

*We sometimes forget that NYC (sorta like Toronto) is not exactly beloved (understood?) by the rest of planet america, and lots of (non-colonizing) Brits choose curry over roast beef or fish ' chips.

Scorn for the metropolis from the regions is as old as the Roman Empire or older.

But if you choose to compare Toronto's relationship to its hinterland to New York's (or any other metropolis) there is a difference.

New Yorkers look down on other Americans and say "ewww, those people eat Grits" and "pffft only hillbillies watch Nascar". But they do know what that stuff is.

Many Torontonians are more like "getting screeched in... never heard of that!" or "WTF is the Brier?????".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Maldive

The thread: the very definition of "being Canadian" is obviously fluid and is perhaps changing (with some regional exceptions) faster than a large chunk of the world's "being whatever". Can being (most or least) Canadian now include more love for basketball (thanks Dr. Naismith), than love for the CFL, rather than a laundry list of internet stereotypes or a specific 1867 to the present declaration?
.

In the case of the NBA (and even NCAA) vs. the CFL, that ship has already sailed for a decent chunk of the country. Up next: hockey.

If we take the example of NYC again, even if it's a global city, people there aren't turning their noses up at baseball and football as passé, and preferring soccer instead. Yes, soccer is growing fast there just as it is here but no one is throwing the other traditional all-American sports into the dumpster for the Next Big Thing.

They're not swearing off Hollywood movies and TV shows just because India's Bollywood has a "bigger scene". (And is actually producing better and better stuff.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

When I was in Auckland, I couldn't help but feel the similarity to Toronto.

It had British bones as we wandered the streets near Mount Eden, but it definitely had a global feel in its population. It was clean, safe and a fine city, but it wasn't where I think I'd find representative New Zealand, as it were.

It definitely felt like where NZ might be headed in the decades ahead and I speculate if I spent more time there, I'd find that Auckland's gaze didn't focus on Wellington, Canterbury or Dunedin.

It suffers from drubbing from Kiwis from outside it. Look up what JAFA means and you'll get my gist, so it too has the tall-poppy analog there too.

It even had its own similar-looking fancy tower.

Yes, Auckland is derided for being too American by other Kiwis, but if you've ever been to Sydney it's even more Americanized than Auckland is. (Of course Toronto being a Canadian city will be way more Americanized than either of them.)

But in terms of Auckland it still has a fair amount of residual Britishness (that like it or not is a huge part of NZ's heritage) plus the indigenous element is also more present due to both demographics and government promotion of it that has been progressively enhanced in recent years.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by biguc

Most of you are undervaluing Canadianess in the forest<trees way you can only pull off from deep inside a culture.

I'm reminded of an infographic comparing culture to an iceberg, with all the superficial things—language, food, music—poking above the water, while the bulk of the culture lies beneath. Of course, all anglo cultures connect as a vast iceberg; deep enough it's all just Calvinism. Obviously you'd see similarities between Aukland and Toronto. You see London reflected in Toronto if you straighten the streets out. You see Amsterdam in New York too.

None of that takes away from the big part of the iceberg that is just Canadian. It's something you can't exactly analyze, but when you meet a Filipino dude from Winnipeg who hasn't lived in Canada for 20 years and in some ineffable way he reminds you of Gord Downie, you know it's there.

So, what is a random global city, anyway? Cairo? Singapore? Is Toronto really more like these places than anywhere else in Canada? If you look past the generic aspects of all big cities, it's not.

We are arguing about subtleties. None of the cities in Canada aren't Canadian. I've never felt alien anywhere in this country. Different, sure, but not alien. So, yeah, we're going to argue about the subtleties.

The knock against Toronto in this debate is that on that spectrum of representing the entire country (English/French, old-stock versus new Canadian, domestic-looking versus internationally-focused) it definitely trends toward one side. Which is fine and generally what happens in big cities. It just doesn't capture the whole very well. It doesn't make it not Canadian, it actually is probably a leading indicator of where we are going.

For random global cities, my interpretation is that it's somewhere relatively new, but big. A big tree without a deep root system, or a city that reminds you of the last bland international airport you passed through.

Some examples off the top of my head (IMO):

Toronto
Auckland
Sydney
Shenzen
Seattle
Phoenix
Bangalore
Singapore
Dubai

They don't necessarily capture the ethos or feel of their home countries very well. They are generally clean and orderly. They don't have tons of history, relatively speaking.

It's harder to find in Europe and certain parts of Asia.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In the case of the NBA (and even NCAA) vs. the CFL, that ship has already sailed for a decent chunk of the country. Up next: hockey.

If we take the example of NYC again, even if it's a global city, people there aren't turning their noses up at baseball and football as passé, and preferring soccer instead. Yes, soccer is growing fast there just as it is here but no one is throwing the other traditional all-American sports into the dumpster for the Next Big Thing.

They're not swearing off Hollywood movies and TV shows just because India's Bollywood has a "bigger scene". (And is actually producing better and better stuff.)

Exactly to me Toronto is Canadian in geographic location only now, when I visit the city it has no sense of any connection to Canadianess or Canadian culture whatsoever.

[Maldive]

"Many Torontonians are more like "getting screeched in... never heard of that!" or "WTF is the Brier?????"

^ yes it was time to unearth this classic myth... adored/celebrated by worldly, domestically-informed Vancouverites, Montrealers and even transplanted Ontarians who passed their Calgary entrance exam.

I was "Screeched" 1000 feet (300 metres?) above a fjord in Gros Morne, and I have made most of the folks in southern Ontario watch slideshows from my three coast to coast trips (never made it to the arctic). Everyone expected wheat, not vast forests and lakes in (northern) Saskatchewan.

Just sayin' I did my best, but new folks keep moving in and it's hard to keep up.

*The Brier is a rabbit right?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, Auckland is derided for being too American by other Kiwis, but if you've ever been to Sydney it's even more Americanized than Auckland is. (Of course Toronto being a Canadian city will be way more Americanized than either of them.)

But in terms of Auckland it still has a fair amount of residual Britishness (that like it or not is a huge part of NZ's heritage) plus the indigenous element is also more present due to both demographics and government promotion of it that has been progressively enhanced in recent years.

I only spent a couple of days in Auckland, so it was a brief impression. It's an OK city, but if you want to see NZ, Auckland is not the place to spend one's time.

I do agree with the British feel of the country. It definitely has the colonial feel still, far more than Canada. Their history has an uncanny similarity to ours, which is unsurprising from a theoretical point-of-view, but hard to reconcile in person. It sure doesn't feel half the globe away from Canada, that's for certain.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Maldive

"Many Torontonians are more like "getting screeched in... never heard of that!" or "WTF is the Brier?????"

^ yes it was time to unearth this classic myth... adored/celebrated by worldly, domestically-informed Vancouverites, Montrealers and even transplanted Ontarians who passed their Calgary entrance exam.

I was "Screeched" 1000 feet (300 metres?) above a fjord in Gros Morne, and I have made most of the folks in southern Ontario watch slideshows from my three coast to coast trips (never made it to the arctic). Everyone expected wheat, not vast forests and lakes in (northern) Saskatchewan.

Just sayin' I did my best, but new folks keep moving in and it's hard to keep up.

*The Brier is a rabbit right?

Obviously we're not saying it's everyone in the GTA that is like this. We have die-hard CFL fans from the 416 on here, after all.

But I think one can generally observe in Toronto a lesser amount of knowledge and interest in the rest of the country than one normally finds in even the cockiest self-absorbed metropolises of the world.

I also think it's unfair to put this down to newcomers/immigrants. It's quite prevalent among multi-generational Torontonians, even those whose ancestry in the country goes back to the British colonial era.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by wave46

When I was in Auckland, I couldn't help but feel the similarity to Toronto.

It had British bones as we wandered the streets near Mount Eden, but it definitely had a global feel in its population. It was clean, safe and a fine city, but it wasn't where I think I'd find representative New Zealand, as it were.

It definitely felt like where NZ might be headed in the decades ahead and I speculate if I spent more time there, I'd find that Auckland's gaze didn't focus on Wellington, Canterbury or Dunedin.

It suffers from drubbing from Kiwis from outside it. Look up what JAFA means and you'll get my gist, so it too has the tall-poppy analog there too.

It even had its own similar-looking fancy tower.

I don’t see any Toronto in Auckland. It feels like a bigger version of Victoria.

[MolsonExport]

If you watch Francophone Quebec media, you could easily think that there is hardly any world outside of Quebec. As much as I love my home province, it is like living in a bubble, and one that is more difficult to pierce than that bubble that Torontonians live in. As you have repeatedly said on this forum, because of the unique language situation of Quebec, it is much more insulated from American and ROC influences. You can't have it both ways.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Doug

I don’t see any Toronto in Auckland. It feels like a bigger version of Victoria.

It's about the size of Calgary, IIRC.

Of course, being the largest city in a small isolated island country gives it more oomph.

I think its share of the country's population is about the same as Toronto's in Canada.

Though it does have its Ottawa (Wellington) to contend with, there are no Montreals or Vancouvers to rival it nationally or regionally.

[MolsonExport]

Airport and tall buildings aside, Shenzhen is 99.999% Chinese in ethnicity and feel.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

If you watch Francophone Quebec media, you could easily think that there is hardly any world outside of Quebec. As much as I love my home province, it is like living in a bubble, and one that is more difficult to pierce than that bubble that Torontonians live in. As you have repeatedly said on this forum, because of the unique language situation of Quebec, it is much more insulated from American and ROC influences. You can't have it both ways.

Yes, this aspect does have its good and bad sides.

[MolsonExport]

As for immigration, Montreal attracts large swathes of people from places that are perhaps less proportionately represented in the rest of Canada. In particular, places that were formerly French colonies, or under the French Mandate (Lebanon, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria, Syria, Haiti, Congo, Cote d'Ivoire, etc.). Of course immigrants from these places can be found elsewhere in Canada, much like how Chinese, Filipinos and Indians can be found in Montreal. But the relative proportions are quite different.

My two cents.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

As much as I love my home province, it is like living in a bubble, and one that is more difficult to pierce than that bubble that Torontonians live in. .

Agree again. Though in the case of Toronto, its bubble only filters out that which is uniquely Canadian. It's extremely open to outside influences (American first and foremost, but also from the rest of the world). Especially if they're not Canadian. It's quite paradoxical for a place that on the other hand exudes a high degree of Canadian pride in terms of symbols (the flag, the maple leaf) and rhetoric (Canada numer one!).

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Doug

I don’t see any Toronto in Auckland. It feels like a bigger version of Victoria.

It depends how you view it.

In landscape, I agree with you. Housing can be hit or miss, but it's in a much warmer climate. Walking down Queen Street gave a Toronto-ish vibe. Or driving south from the Auckland Habour Bridge on the Northern Motorway with the Sky Tower dominating was Toronto-esque.

In terms of the role it occupies in the national psyche, yes. Or how its demographics are different from the rest of NZ. Or how other Kiwis outside of Auckland viewed it. I can't say how the average Aucklander views the world, but I suspect the gaze looks towards Sydney, Asia or London moreso than Wellington, or the South Island.

I'm not making a definitive claim, but to one person's vibe, yes, there are similarities.

[SignalHillHiker]

It depends on a person’s background too. Truly cool 40+ people here look to MTL, and talk about how cool TO has gotten in the last decade. 40+ soccer Moms who vacation in Florida, though, look to HFX and complain we’re turning into TO every time a suburban apartment building 6 floors high is proposed.

I imagine the same thing is happening in TO, Auckland, etc. There are bound to be some suburban Torontonians deeply concerned about comparisons to Buffalo, just as there are people whose frame of reference is other world cities.