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  #14421  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2020, 7:54 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Which is part of the problem if you want to effect change at the national level. I think the feds needs a $4-5B (distributed over 6-8 years) bus transit electrification program that makes funding specifically available for infrastructure associated with Electric or Hydrogen buses. This is low hanging fruit for a Climate Change Strategy.

I don't even think the feds need to provide subsidies for the price differential between diesel and electric buses. Just help the transit authorities with the infrastructure piece and they'll start buying electric buses because the business case will get them there. There's even bus OEMs that provide leasing and financing to enable transition because the operating cost differential is enough to make that possible.
One of the problems with transit projects from the climate perspective is that they are one of the most expensive ways to reduce emissions, even if they are a very visible way to spend money to be seen to be reducing emissions.

The emissions reductions reported in Transit EAs are piddly. There is a reason they aren't front and centre anymore except in press releases about projects from government.


Edit: The Government's Low Carbon Economy Challenge was the search for the low hanging fruit. Any industry could submit projects and the government awarded money based on the $ spent per reduction. What was the low hanging fruit for cities? Landfill gas management: Winnipeg Calgary Regina

Last edited by MalcolmTucker; Aug 10, 2020 at 8:27 PM.
     
     
  #14422  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2020, 11:03 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
One of the problems with transit projects from the climate perspective is that they are one of the most expensive ways to reduce emissions, even if they are a very visible way to spend money to be seen to be reducing emissions.
Building actual transit lines? Sure. But that is not what I am suggesting here. I am suggesting funding infrastructure. Notably the rewiring and refits of bus depots to enable transit authorities to electrify their high consuming fleets with the normal recapitalization cycle. This is why I also said, they don't need to actually subsidize the buses.

Looking at China's experience with battery electric buses, we know that each electric transit bus displaces about half a barrel oil per day. There's about 20 000 transit buses in Canada. So assuming that $100 000 to $200 000 in infrastructure costs per vehicle, that works out to $2-4 billion to displace about 10 000 bbls/day of demand or about 4000 tonnes of CO2 per day, for a fully electrified fleet. Funding the enabling infrastructure would allow transit authorities to fully electrify their fleets on their own by 2035. The added benefit is that the low operating costs makes the finances of these transit authorities more sustainable.
     
     
  #14423  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2020, 11:17 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
One of the problems with transit projects from the climate perspective is that they are one of the most expensive ways to reduce emissions, even if they are a very visible way to spend money to be seen to be reducing emissions.

The emissions reductions reported in Transit EAs are piddly. There is a reason they aren't front and centre anymore except in press releases about projects from government.


Edit: The Government's Low Carbon Economy Challenge was the search for the low hanging fruit. Any industry could submit projects and the government awarded money based on the $ spent per reduction. What was the low hanging fruit for cities? Landfill gas management: Winnipeg Calgary Regina
Exactly, most facts would state against bus electrification from an economic pov. Buses already have among the lowest emission output per user.
     
     
  #14424  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 12:37 AM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Building actual transit lines? Sure. But that is not what I am suggesting here. I am suggesting funding infrastructure. Notably the rewiring and refits of bus depots to enable transit authorities to electrify their high consuming fleets with the normal recapitalization cycle. This is why I also said, they don't need to actually subsidize the buses.

Looking at China's experience with battery electric buses, we know that each electric transit bus displaces about half a barrel oil per day. There's about 20 000 transit buses in Canada. So assuming that $100 000 to $200 000 in infrastructure costs per vehicle, that works out to $2-4 billion to displace about 10 000 bbls/day of demand or about 4000 tonnes of CO2 per day, for a fully electrified fleet. Funding the enabling infrastructure would allow transit authorities to fully electrify their fleets on their own by 2035. The added benefit is that the low operating costs makes the finances of these transit authorities more sustainable.
I'm not saying it is a bad idea. Just from a climate perspective, $4 billion bucks applied strategically can reduce emissions more than the 1.5 million tonnes a year by your rough estimate from bus electrification.

Also: it will happen on its own, as the economics are favourable without extra special funding. So you're climate savings is only for the delta number of years between the accelerated schedule, and the no special funding schedule.

Allocate the funding elsewhere, and you get reductions from both!

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Exactly, most facts would state against bus electrification from an economic pov. Buses already have among the lowest emission output per user.
No to the first. Electrification is an economic slam dunk life-cycle cost wise, and only going to get better.

It just isn't the best way to spend extra special climate money when seeking climate objectives.
     
     
  #14425  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 12:54 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Exactly, most facts would state against bus electrification from an economic pov.
This is definitely not true. Electric buses have lower lifecycle costs (including operations and maintenance). It's the acquisition costs and initial infrastructure costs that are barriers. And we're about 5-10 years away from the buses costing the same to acquire.

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Buses already have among the lowest emission output per user.
Compared to a car maybe. Not compared to a any other form of urban passenger transport. Buses are actually a notable source of pollution in most Canadian cities. In many neighbourhoods, it's the largest diesel burning vehicle that rumbles through over 50 times a day.
     
     
  #14426  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 1:19 AM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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This is definitely not true. Electric buses have lower lifecycle costs (including operations and maintenance). It's the acquisition costs and initial infrastructure costs that are barriers. And we're about 5-10 years away from the buses costing the same to acquire.



Compared to a car maybe. Not compared to a any other form of urban passenger transport. Buses are actually a notable source of pollution in most Canadian cities. In many neighbourhoods, it's the largest diesel burning vehicle that rumbles through over 50 times a day.
This is basically my job. There is NO real life case for electric buses for the next ten years at best, nearly 5B$ to upgrade buses garages. So no, will not happen especially with the COVID situation.

Buses are better than intercity and commuter rail in most cases.

I will say it again for transit fans, IT IS MY JOB.
     
     
  #14427  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 1:21 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
...it will happen on its own, as the economics are favourable without extra special funding. So you're climate savings is only for the delta number of years between the accelerated schedule, and the no special funding schedule.
Accelerating a reduction by a decade or more is not a smaller matter. In theory, that's at least 15 million tons of CO2. Alternatively, without federal leadership and investment, the pace is really slow. Only the larger agencies are really doing trials. And even they aren't committed to full electric buses till the 2040 timeframe in many cases. Fund the infrastructure and they will accelerate electrification on their own.

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I'm not saying it is a bad idea. Just from a climate perspective, $4 billion bucks applied strategically can reduce emissions more than the 1.5 million tonnes a year by your rough estimate from bus electrification.
I would honestly love to see better ideas for the $2-4 billion. There's only so many landfills that you can install methane traps on. Nor are those investments substantial enough to even put a noticeable dent in our GHG emissions. Eventually, the government is going to have to get serious and actually do some heavy lifting.

Electrifying high mileage fleets is a well known strategy option. Especially in a country with a relatively low emitting power grid. I don't think $2 billion ($100k per current bus, could be lower or a bit higher) is all that much for enabling infrastructure (again, I haven't said to subsidize the buses themselves). The way battery costs are going down, the bottleneck is quickly becoming the infrastructure and those costs. Not the vehicles themselves. And cash strapped transit authorities may avoid electrification, mostly because of the initial infrastructure layout.

It's also a proposal that can benefit big and small transit systems throughout the country (unlike rail investments). And is an investment that reduces the transit agencies operating costs, allowing them to become less sensitive to gas prices, bolstering long term financial sustainability.
     
     
  #14428  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 1:35 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by p_xavier View Post
This is basically my job.

....

I will say it again for transit fans, IT IS MY JOB.
It's great to have someone informed. Hopefully you can provide us more sources to learn from.

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Originally Posted by p_xavier View Post
There is NO real life case for electric buses for the next ten years at best, nearly 5B$ to upgrade buses garages. So no, will not happen especially with the COVID situation.
If we can't afford $5B to upgrade bus garages across the country over the coming decade, you might as well write off a whole lot of other investments in the country, and announce Canada's intentions not to comply with the Paris Accords. There is literally no path to making a dent in our Paris obligations without vehicle electrification. And transit buses are just about the most disproportionate emitters out there.

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Originally Posted by p_xavier View Post
Buses are better than intercity and commuter rail in most cases.
Everything I have read says otherwise. But I would love to see some sources. Also, I was thinking of electrified rail, which every major city in this country has in some form (subways, LRT, electrified commuter and suburban rail). I struggle to see how those would have per capita higher emissions than buses.
     
     
  #14429  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 9:31 AM
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The problem in Halifax is finding one or two good routes for light rail that justify unusually high investment. The city has a somewhat older setup where there's a relatively large urban core that doesn't have a single standout focal point or corridor. There are 7 or 8 randomly scattered destinations to serve and that's hard to do with a small scale LRT system. The city's BRT plan calls for serving the urban core with an "8" pattern plus 2 dead ends.

In Canada we tend to think of cities as going along a normal progression from small to large and getting certain kinds of infrastructure at certain milestones, but every city is different. Dartmouth NS has a 10-lane highway for example because it's full of lakes and hills it's hard to build arterial roads with a reasonable grade that connect up well over long distances (almost all of metro Halifax is like this). Halifax also has much less transit than it used to. In 1921 it was a metro of about 100,000 where almost nobody had a car, and in 1971 it was a metro of 265,000 where almost everybody had a car. The 1921 city had much better transit. In the 1940's, the streetcar frequency on Barrington St in Halifax was every 90 seconds and those connected up to suburban commuter rail as well as 4 regional rail lines.
It's crazy what Canadian cities gave up in the post-war years, and how little it's a part of the public consciousness. In Winnipeg they usually point to the Panama Canal, or NAFTA, or the 1919 general strike (as if actual communist revolutions weren't going off everywhere that year) as the reason Winnipeg stagnated, but they're silent on how they deliberately ripped out their city's circulatory system and catalyst for growth through the first half of the 20th century. It would take investment in the billions to restore what they casually threw away. It's plausible that if so many Canadian cities hadn't destroyed their transit infrastructure that they would be not only denser and more urban, but larger overall.

Anyway, I think your points about Halifax's decentralized core and challenging terrain outside of it are exactly why it's a good candidate for rail investment. If you can't build a lot of arterial roads, just build higher-capacity rail lines and negate the need for the roads.

Here's what I'm thinking:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1cnoYlhQxbvmLnP5s3gIumPZsUaSnwiB7&usp=sharing

There are notes on all the of the lines if you're interested in reading them.

A few more thoughts:

With this system, almost everywhere in the downtown peninsula would be within 600m of a line.

This isn't a crazy system for a city Halifax's size. In fact, it's pretty comparable to what you'll find in Rostock, Germany. Rostock is pretty similar to Halifax in a lot of ways--it's the east-coast city, it has a similar population (hard to figure out because Rostock has some kind of "regiopolis" setup that obscures its metro population, but it's a little over 400k), and both cities have a generally linear development pattern, strung around an inlet or estuary.

Rostock has an S-bahn line doing the heavy lifting connecting the city with its DDR-era suburban residential districts and the coast. It also has I think 6 tram lines.

It's an appropriate level of service for Halifax now, and will handily support the city's growth for decades to come.

This is all probably politically challenging--if not impossible--but it shouldn't be. That's why it's imperative that smaller cities take on these kind of projects before they sprawl too much, their streets become too rammed with personal vehicles, and car culture dictates everything.

Trams are good. Anglo Canadians are allergic to them--probably because Toronto's system is really bad and because most Canadian drivers would rather remove their own legs than let a more efficient vehicle take away road space--but they work very well all over Europe. Even in mixed traffic. The key is to get them out of mixed traffic whenever possible, keep their stops far enough apart, and not give personal vehicles any signal priority over trams. The TTC commits each of those sins, plus uses a bunch of outdated technology like trolley poles and manual switches.


A final point on the regional/S-bahn line. This is a big project that would best be implemented incrementally, starting immediately. A handful of stops, some track construction, and you could get a single diesel train running on an hourly frequency. Spend the next thirty years improving the system and nobody will even notice what a big, expensive project it was. No need to build a Skytrain network or anything in one shot.
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  #14430  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 9:52 AM
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I've seen a lot of talk from some of you about Canadian industrial policy with respect to developing a hydrogen economy. Hydrogen busses are nothing new, and there are hydrogen trains and trams now too, which are kind of attractive from a capital cost perspective because you don't have to go in on the expense of electrifying a line.

What do you think about converting fleets to hydrogen and building new infrastructure for hydrogen rail as a way to jumpstart the hydrogen industry in Canada?
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  #14431  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 11:58 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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What do you think about converting fleets to hydrogen and building new infrastructure for hydrogen rail as a way to jumpstart the hydrogen industry in Canada?
I would have thought it a good idea 5 years ago. Now? Why bother? Batteries are coming down so fast in price, especially as automakers invest in the EVs, that we're 5-10 years away from battery buses being sold at the same or lower cost than than the cost of diesel buses. They already cost just a fraction of diesel buses to operate and maintain. All that is needed is to build the infrastructure and the transit agencies can simply buy electric buses as part of the normal replacement cycle. If the infrastructure was there, most of them would be doing that today.

Hydrogen infrastructure on the other hand is just not there yet. Hydrogen generation is not substantial in Canada. Nor is anybody seriously investing in it. Fuel Cell vehicles (including buses) cost substantially more than electric vehicles. And without substantial investment the cost curves appear at least a decade behind. And the infrastructure is further behind and would require substantial investment to enable broad usage by operators across the country. Overall, choosing hydrogen could easily mean double or triple the investment of building some high voltage lines and wiring up bus depots. Investment would be needed across the entire H2 supply chain. Generation, storage and distribution. All to enable transit agencies to buy buses that cost 30% more than battery buses and maybe double in fuel costs.
     
     
  #14432  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 2:58 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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In theory, that's at least 15 million tons of CO2.
Given Canada's emissions are around 729 million tons, sure it would be good to reduce emissions from buses, but there are a lot of reasons why you wouldn't preference it.

As before: it is going to happen on its own due to good economics, and it is a one and done with technology on the mature side of the curve.

Where you want government investment, either where it is cheapest, or where the potential to drive down costs are enormous and maturing a technology will move it closer to being economic so that a large sector can adopt it and reduce emissions without direct support.

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I would honestly love to see better ideas for the $2-4 billion. There's only so many landfills that you can install methane traps on.
Yes. Which is why programs like the Low Carbon Economy Fund was/is open to all sorts, government or not. The atmosphere does not care where emissions come from. And it is better for everyone to reduce emissions in the lowest cost way. One of the chief benefits from the program isn't actually the reductions (though it is a benefit!), it is the government received all sorts of information about what business and government across the entire country thought reducing emissions would cost them, and how they would do it.

This is not to say that transit isn't great, don't get me wrong. Just that transit is not a climate panacea.
     
     
  #14433  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 3:18 PM
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The C02 saving in replacing car trips with transit trips doesn't capture the full climate value of transit investment. Canada is one of the worst per-capita polluters in the world, and the lifestyle is partly to blame. Even if Canadians replaced all cars with EVs and put solar panels on their roofs this would still be true. Living in large, detached houses and buying vehicles (and a lot of other stuff) means high emissions.

The existence of excellent transit is a nudge at a cultural shift towards living in denser housing, owning no cars, and enjoying public spaces instead of needing private spaces. That's where we need to go.
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  #14434  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 3:41 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Originally Posted by biguc View Post
The C02 saving in replacing car trips with transit trips doesn't capture the full climate value of transit investment. Canada is one of the worst per-capita polluters in the world, and the lifestyle is partly to blame. Even if Canadians replaced all cars with EVs and put solar panels on their roofs this would still be true. Living in large, detached houses and buying vehicles (and a lot of other stuff) means high emissions.

The existence of excellent transit is a nudge at a cultural shift towards living in denser housing, owning no cars, and enjoying public spaces instead of needing private spaces. That's where we need to go.
But no, it doesn't. If we get to virtually no internal combustion vehicles (only those with no feasible alternative) being sold by 2040, and pursue work to both green the gas grid or electrify heating, while continuing to green the electricity grid, the exact same build form and habits can reduce emissions greatly. No need to transform our society, technology in this case has indeed saved us from making sacrifices.

That isn't to say that we shouldn't encourage changes in habits to make our cities better places to live, with better mobility. Just that the climate case isn't central to that argument, compared to say in 2005 with then current technology.
     
     
  #14435  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 3:55 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
It's great to have someone informed. Hopefully you can provide us more sources to learn from.



If we can't afford $5B to upgrade bus garages across the country over the coming decade, you might as well write off a whole lot of other investments in the country, and announce Canada's intentions not to comply with the Paris Accords. There is literally no path to making a dent in our Paris obligations without vehicle electrification. And transit buses are just about the most disproportionate emitters out there.



Everything I have read says otherwise. But I would love to see some sources. Also, I was thinking of electrified rail, which every major city in this country has in some form (subways, LRT, electrified commuter and suburban rail). I struggle to see how those would have per capita higher emissions than buses.
I was thinking of the current train situation which uses diesel. The REM construction has an insane of CO2 just for the massive concrete structures, it will take decades to recoup that.
     
     
  #14436  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 3:56 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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As before: it is going to happen on its own due to good economics, and it is a one and done with technology on the mature side of the curve.
You can't just use economics as an excuse. Those economics only happen if you invest. Absent active investment and development they won't happen. And let's be clear, even Canada's current plans have a gap from Paris obligations. So there's a lot to be done that requires more than just counting on economics.

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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
But no, it doesn't. If we get to virtually no internal combustion vehicles (only those with no feasible alternative) being sold by 2040, and pursue work to both green the gas grid or electrify heating, while continuing to green the electricity grid, the exact same build form and habits can reduce emissions greatly. No need to transform our society, technology in this case has indeed saved us from making sacrifices.
You are presuming us making substantial investments to make this happen. Yet seem opposed to the very investments necessary on the basis of, "It'll happen on its own....."

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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
Where you want government investment, either where it is cheapest, or where the potential to drive down costs are enormous and maturing a technology will move it closer to being economic so that a large sector can adopt it and reduce emissions without direct support.
Nonsense. Government invests for many more purposes than cost reduction. Last I checked, the government isn't building the roads you drive on and sidewalks you walk on, just to drive down costs. Those are all enabling infrastructure to facilitate mobility and transportation. And that is, and should always be the primary purpose of public transport investment.

However, the government is already investing billions in public transit. It is doing so for more reasons than just climate change concerns. I am suggesting that there is an opportunity here to invest and focus planned investments towards a complementary goal. Funding the infrastructure is all that is necessary to letting the agencies transition on their own. It's not all that different from investing in public EV charging infrastructure to facilitate person ownership of EVs.

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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
That isn't to say that we shouldn't encourage changes in habits to make our cities better places to live, with better mobility. Just that the climate case isn't central to that argument, compared to say in 2005 with then current technology.
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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
This is not to say that transit isn't great, don't get me wrong. Just that transit is not a climate panacea.
Nobody has said it is. This is a strawman you keep bringing up.
     
     
  #14437  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 4:01 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by biguc View Post
The C02 saving in replacing car trips with transit trips doesn't capture the full climate value of transit investment. Canada is one of the worst per-capita polluters in the world, and the lifestyle is partly to blame. Even if Canadians replaced all cars with EVs and put solar panels on their roofs this would still be true. Living in large, detached houses and buying vehicles (and a lot of other stuff) means high emissions.

The existence of excellent transit is a nudge at a cultural shift towards living in denser housing, owning no cars, and enjoying public spaces instead of needing private spaces. That's where we need to go.
Correct. At some point, we are going to have to have a serious discussion on how we plan and build cities. Our sprawl isn't just terrible for the environment. It's financially unsustainable. And we're now seeing skyrocketing property tax bills in a lot of older suburbs. A good chunk of the GTA will have five figure property tax bills as the norm by the end of the next decade. And yet, we have other cities that haven't learned a thing and are still going down that path.

A slight modal share shift to transit really isn't enough. It's going to take a lot more.
     
     
  #14438  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 4:13 PM
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Anyway, I think your points about Halifax's decentralized core and challenging terrain outside of it are exactly why it's a good candidate for rail investment. If you can't build a lot of arterial roads, just build higher-capacity rail lines and negate the need for the roads.

Here's what I'm thinking:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1cnoYlhQxbvmLnP5s3gIumPZsUaSnwiB7&usp=sharing

There are notes on all the of the lines if you're interested in reading them.

A few more thoughts:

With this system, almost everywhere in the downtown peninsula would be within 600m of a line.

This isn't a crazy system for a city Halifax's size. In fact, it's pretty comparable to what you'll find in Rostock, Germany. Rostock is pretty similar to Halifax in a lot of ways--it's the east-coast city, it has a similar population (hard to figure out because Rostock has some kind of "regiopolis" setup that obscures its metro population, but it's a little over 400k), and both cities have a generally linear development pattern, strung around an inlet or estuary.

Rostock has an S-bahn line doing the heavy lifting connecting the city with its DDR-era suburban residential districts and the coast. It also has I think 6 tram lines.
I think those lines really illustrates the point someone made earlier when stating "The problem in Halifax is finding one or two good routes for light rail that justify unusually high investment." The rail cut would have been decent for a longer distance commuter line if CN was more cooperative. With some upgrades it would provide a fast and fairly effective route from Bedford and points along the basin to the Halifax shopping centre area, the universities, and downtown. But for a shorter urban line, it's very poor because of the station locations. The parts of the peninsula it passes through aren't very dense with little opportunity for density increases and there would need to be extensive retrofitting to fit the stations including stairs and elevators into the trench (probably significant widening). In other words, t's a very fringe corridor to be sinking a lot of money into. This is even more pronounced with the Dartmouth rail line which is basically useless as a transit route because it's so out of the way from major residential or commercial areas. There are a handful residences in the walkup catchment areas but it's out of the way for any feeder buses and it would be pointless to travel any significant distance to get to it hoping to save a few minutes from its higher speed when a route on main streets like Windmill or Pleasant would get you there just as fast while providing access to more things (like shops and services) along the way.

With the other routes like Chebucto, Barrington and Windsor, it's hard to make an argument for them versus their alternatives such as Quinpool, Robie, and Gottingen. For instance, one might be wider making it easier to allocate a dedicated lane, but another might have more people and destinations along it who might see decreased service after some trips are diverted to the new corridor. A route that's winder might be good as an express route for longer distance trips while a route that's narrower and more densely built up would be better for shorter urban-oriented trips. So which route do you choose?

That's why until this point the diffuse approach of doing cheaper upgrades to more corridors has made sense. This has included the addition of lanes, signal priority and queue jumps at a variety of key areas.
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  #14439  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 4:15 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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I was thinking of the current train situation which uses diesel.
Aside from the fact that passenger rail electrification is a broad trend, I'd still like to see your evidence that emissions per pax-km is higher on a diesel train than a diesel bus. Could you provide a source please?

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The REM construction has an insane of CO2 just for the massive concrete structures, it will take decades to recoup that.
Literally every building using concrete has embedded emissions. The alternative to building transit infrastructure is a lot of those people driving in bad traffic, mostly in single occupant vehicles burning gas. That adds up mighty fast.

CDPQ says REM will displace 680 000 tonnes in GHG emissions over 25 years. How much concrete was used and emissions generated during construction and how does it compare to that figure? Do you have sources?
     
     
  #14440  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 4:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
That's why until this point the diffuse approach of doing cheaper upgrades to more corridors has made sense. This has included the addition of lanes, signal priority and queue jumps at a variety of key areas.
It's an approach that still makes sense. If they want to do more, they should develop a high-frequency BRT network with dedicated branding like VIVA in York or Zum in Brampton. LRT isn't automatically always the answer.
     
     
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