The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[vid]

Originally Posted by lio45

If they have no homes, seems to me they have greater and more pressing problems than occasionally being on the receiving end of an insult; wouldn't you agree?

They do, but it is the stability of a home that will give them the ability to deal with those. You cannot get clean while living on the streets, because almost every situation that pushes you to use is there, and drugs are plentiful. Take a homeless addict and put them into a home and provide them with access to rehabilitation, which usually means, give them the drug they currently use regardless of what it is and wean them off gradually so they can adjust to life without it, while also helping them address other things ranging from the simple (basic hygiene and cooking) to more complex (skills training and finding a job). This is called "housing first", and it's proven to be the most successful and least expensive way to reduce homelessness. It's considerably cheaper than the current method Thunder Bay is using, where homeless people cause public safety concerns and then spend the night at the emergency room being supervised by multiple police officers working overtime before being released the next morning and the process repeats every day ad infinitum.

Originally Posted by lio45

Am I the first one to notice how directly vid's argument applies to the guy in the video that generated this conversation? He totally has the "privilege" to choose to relocate to certain specific areas of Richmond or Markham, where he'll be able to live his life 100% in Mandarin, among people who all look like him, and he'll never ever be at risk of getting called "a — chink" from then on (i.e. successfully "walking away" from racism, and going to a "safe space" where he doesn't get treated that way).



(Wait, what's that you're saying? He shouldn't have to relocate to some section of Richmond...? Well, welcome to savevp's argument then.)

People ghettoize to create safe spaces for themselves. It's the same reason gaybourhoods existed until very recently. It's much easier to get by in a bigoted society when you ghettoize. Canadians should look at the self ghettoization of its minorities as a major indicator that we're not as egalitarian as we like to promote ourselves to be. Savevp shouldn't have to leave school to escape racism. Chinese people shouldn't have to leave Burnaby to escape racism. I shouldn't have had to leave school to avoid homophobia. This is a problem that we all need to work on solving, and we do that by first admitting its a problem, and then discussing its origins and dealing with that aspect of it.

Canada spends more time saying "Canadians are not racist" than it does saying "racism is incompatible with Canadian society", so people who don't feel Canadian probably feel more comfortable being racist—they're not ethnically and culturally Canadian, but they're trying their best to fit in. By assigning our values to ourselves instead of our society we're giving them an out.

Originally Posted by lio45

Am I the first one to notice how directly vid's argument applies to the guy in the video that generated this conversation?

I didn't even watch the video, or read the article associated with it. I barely even read any of the other posts before responding to be honest. I don't have the time, I'm working 7 days a week right now.

[savevp]

Originally Posted by vid

People ghettoize to create safe spaces for themselves. It's the same reason gaybourhoods existed until very recently. It's much easier to get by in a bigoted society when you ghettoize. Canadians should look at the self ghettoization of its minorities as a major indicator that we're not as egalitarian as we like to promote ourselves to be.

I've lately thought about the ghettoisation of ethnic communities in Canada and wondered if our approach to multiculturalism is at least partly responsible. It's a trend that is replicated in the UK as well. But you don't see it in the States really; yes Black and Latino will often end up in inner cities because of economics. Unlike here where ethnic communities persist intergenerationally even as groups become wealthier. And by extension, ghettoisation almost certainly leads to more racism in society.

Maybe it's correlation without causation on my part. But there's a part of me that has become extremely suspicious of the supposed merits of hyphenated-Canadian communities versus the melting pot. In school we were always taught how beautiful the mosaic is and how the melting pot is a great American evil, but I'm not sure the results of institutionalised multiculturalism have been positive on balance.

[vid]

We aren't taught that the melting pot is evil, but we're taught to respect the diverse practices of other cultures. We're less inclined to force immigrants to blend in, in large part because first generation immigrants are putting in a lot of effort to fit in already, so they're maintaining more of their cultural practices and using their language at home and at work more often. When their parents and grandparents move to Canada, it's difficult for them to learn the language and culture due to their age, which gives added incentive to blend in. Since we don't want to leave people behind, we try to accommodate them in their own language. The US attitude is largely "if you don't speak English, — you" so they're under a more urgent demand to assimilate. I'm not sure how many American banks offer Chinese on their ATM, but in Canada, it seems to be all of them, even though there are very few Chinese people in my city.

Most of the time whenever I meet someone who is a first generation immigrant, which in Thunder Bay is mostly just Lebanese/Syrian people or university students from India and they fit in very well here, they also tend to be around my age (20-40). Some of the assimilation is likely out of necessity. We don't have a ghetto, they all live in the same areas everyone else lives. If their parents move here, though, generally they're never going to have a strong grasp of English unless they already learned it back home. We've still got a number of monolingual Finnish and Ukrainian people here from the previous immigration wave, parents of Eastern Europeans who moved here later on and just never got the hang of the language.

I would bet that American city's black populations are more separated and monocultural than most of our ethnic ghettos. Richmond BC is 71% Asian, Compton is 97% Black and Hispanic. But Blacks and Hispanics speak English or Spanish; many Asian people might not.

[saffronleaf]

Oikophobic elites breed xenophobic masses

[someone123]

Originally Posted by vid

People ghettoize to create safe spaces for themselves. It's the same reason gaybourhoods existed until very recently. It's much easier to get by in a bigoted society when you ghettoize. Canadians should look at the self ghettoization of its minorities as a major indicator that we're not as egalitarian as we like to promote ourselves to be. Savevp shouldn't have to leave school to escape racism. Chinese people shouldn't have to leave Burnaby to escape racism. I shouldn't have had to leave school to avoid homophobia. This is a problem that we all need to work on solving, and we do that by first admitting its a problem, and then discussing its origins and dealing with that aspect of it.

Racism is one potential cause of self-segregation but it is not the only one. People sometimes want to group together with others who speak the same language or who have the same culture. Sometimes you want to be near cultural institutions, businesses that cater to you, etc. We cannot assume that all segregation is the result of negative causes, particularly when it comes to immigrants who continue to want to move to Canada.

Burnaby is about 1/3 Chinese. I doubt Chinese people are fleeing the area due to racism. I'd guess the Chinese population is growing and that Chinese are a rising share of the population in Burnaby. Burnaby is about 2/3 visible minority.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Yes, because both of those things are based in delusions.

And wg_flamip spending every minute of every day shaking in his boots due to a "very real potential threat to his safety" in the Canada of 2020... isn't?

To the rational, non-delusional mind, meteors, lighting, bad cops, angry murderous homophobic mobs, vaccines, and falling off the edge of a flat earth into the void, are all about the same level of threat (~0). Fearing seriously any of that is delusional. (In this country, in this era; back in medieval times it was perfectly rational to be deathly afraid of being exposed as a sodomist or falling off the edge of the world if you ventured too far.)

BTW, one of the two (wg_flamip or Acajack's healthcare professional friend) is most definitely delusional. Either the former is afraid for no reason, or the latter is catastrophically unaware he's been living in mortal peril all these years; it has to be one of the two.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by vid

I didn't even watch the video, or read the article associated with it. I barely even read any of the other posts before responding to be honest. I don't have the time, I'm working 7 days a week right now.

tl;dw summary: A guy got called a "— chink".

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

Racism is one potential cause of self-segregation but it is not the only one. People sometimes want to group together with others who speak the same language or who have the same culture. Sometimes you want to be near cultural institutions, businesses that cater to you, etc. We cannot assume that all segregation is the result of negative causes, particularly when it comes to immigrants who continue to want to move to Canada.

It could even be the other way around, in fact.

Let's imagine that Poland has by far the highest standard of living on the planet, and that everyone wants to move there (but not everyone is able to). You, I, and vid manage to do that.

In the scenario where Poles are super open to foreigners, it's likely that we'll hang out together after relocating there, speak English (or French) between ourselves, watching the NHL playoffs while drinking imported Tim Hortons coffee and eating poutine.

In the other scenario in which the Poles are xenophobic, we'll still all go there if we can (to enjoy the much higher quality of life there) but the difference is that we'll likely all want to integrate and get accepted as soon as possible as part of the greater "us". We won't want to risk standing out as foreigners, especially not stubborn ones who broadcast through their behavior that they aren't too interested in Polish customs and ways.

Anglo-Canada's extreme openness, and its weakness when it's time to impose any cultural norms to newcomers, is one of the reasons for this self-segregation. People do it because they can get away with it.

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by lio45

tl;dw summary: A guy got called a "— chink".

He was also hit by a car, you idiot.

[urbandreamer]

I was driving through Regent Park the other day and wow the ghetto there is stronger than ever. It's changed from mostly black to mostly middle eastern Muslims. They're living like they're still in Syria - very masculine culture on the streets with the women hidden (at home?) Kind of a culture shock coming from Bloor West Village ha. The densities are insane in the new buildings. While culturally alien to me, maybe it's time for that area of Toronto to allow the building of giant new mosques?

Then I drove through Brampton today: everyone looking at me like I was the foreigner.

[savevp]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-explorer-kayaks-lake-ontario-1.5680193

This frustrates me immensely. A local man kayaks across Lake Ontario, nice easy-reading news piece and a happy achievement for him. Oh, but wait, he's Black. Better devote half the story to that, then. And make sure it's extra patronising, as if a Black person accomplishing this feat of physical endurance needs a special gold star because of his race. Feels like we're in a time warp on race.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by savevp

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-explorer-kayaks-lake-ontario-1.5680193

This frustrates me immensely. A local man kayaks across Lake Ontario, nice easy-reading news piece and a happy achievement for him. Oh, but wait, he's Black. Better devote half the story to that, then. And make sure it's extra patronising, as if a Black person accomplishing this feat of physical endurance needs a special gold star because of his race. Feels like we're in a time warp on race.

You did notice the quotation marks in the part of the report that distressed you, right?

[urbandreamer]

Meanwhile in Algonquin Park yesterday they were all white people kayaking and canoeing. Thousands of them.

[savevp]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

You did notice the quotation marks in the part of the report that distressed you, right?

I'm not sure I understand your point here. Is your suggestion that because there were quotes given about race, the story ought to feature a section about race? If that is what you're suggesting, I'd object to that line of reasoning. Aside from the likely scenario that the reporter would have asked specific questions about race to get those answers, I still fail to see the relevance.

Let's take at face value the claim that BIPOC people are underrepresented in the outdoors industry. White people are totally underrepresented in the 100m dash. If I, the descendent of Scottish and Northern Irish, were to win, I hardly think writing about my race would be necessary. I fail to see how this athlete's skin colour should have any bearing on his remarkable athletic achievement. I find that rather patronising. I also find it difficult to believe a Black outdoorsman (outdoorsperson?) or adventurer worthy of sponsorship would be hard pressed to find it because of his race, in 2020 Canada. Anyhow congrats to M Rigby on his terrific achievement, it is lovely to read about a modern day adventurer.

And as for Algonquin Park, I myself went there for a hike yesterday with my buddy who is Japanese and his wife who is Haida. We didn't do any kayaking but we definitely tacked up a couple diversity points for the outdoors industry.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by lio45

And wg_flamip spending every minute of every day shaking in his boots due to a "very real potential threat to his safety" in the Canada of 2020... isn't?

To the rational, non-delusional mind, meteors, lighting, bad cops, angry murderous homophobic mobs, vaccines, and falling off the edge of a flat earth into the void, are all about the same level of threat (~0). Fearing seriously any of that is delusional. (In this country, in this era; back in medieval times it was perfectly rational to be deathly afraid of being exposed as a sodomist or falling off the edge of the world if you ventured too far.)

BTW, one of the two (wg_flamip or Acajack's healthcare professional friend) is most definitely delusional. Either the former is afraid for no reason, or the latter is catastrophically unaware he's been living in mortal peril all these years; it has to be one of the two.

You know what? You're absolutely right! The power of your third-hand anecdotes has made me realize how delusional I've been all along! You win! Congratulations!

[SkeggsEggs]

Originally Posted by savevp

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-explorer-kayaks-lake-ontario-1.5680193

This frustrates me immensely. A local man kayaks across Lake Ontario, nice easy-reading news piece and a happy achievement for him. Oh, but wait, he's Black. Better devote half the story to that, then. And make sure it's extra patronising, as if a Black person accomplishing this feat of physical endurance needs a special gold star because of his race. Feels like we're in a time warp on race.

Can you provide specific examples of what you find so offensive and patronizing in the article? I read it and listened to the audio interview and did not come away with that interpretation at all.

I actually suggest you listen to the audio interview attached to the article. Of the 10 minutes, less than 3 minutes was dedicated to the one question about his personal experience and barriers he faced in the outdoors industry (5:50-8:27).

He paddled the length of Lake Ontario for a specific reason, to shed a light on causes he is passionate about. For example: "Another reason was to raise money and awareness for My Stand, an organization that works with at-risk youth in Toronto and is close to Rigby's heart." If he wants to use his time to talk about several things important to him what is wrong with that?

Nowhere in the article was it said or even suggested that this is a note-worthy accomplished because he is black. The final part of the article was about his personal experiences in the outdoors industry in terms of representation and sponsorships. If he wants to talk about his personal experience and his desire for more representation why can't he?

[saffronleaf]

Oikophobic elites breed xenophobic masses

[Acajack]

I don't see how being open to reverse or selective racism against a specific group (based on the fact they are the continental majority, and that some of them are horrible today and even more were horrible in the past) leads us to anywhere but a dead end.

As has been stated a million times before, it's no better than being racist against certain other groups based on (stastically provable) perceptions of criminal activity or reliance on social assistance.

Though I guess for some it's probably satisfying in this kind of way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZkC26-3t6U

But the end result is still zilch.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

And wg_flamip spending every minute of every day shaking in his boots due to a "very real potential threat to his safety" in the Canada of 2020... isn't?

To the rational, non-delusional mind, meteors, lighting, bad cops, angry murderous homophobic mobs, vaccines, and falling off the edge of a flat earth into the void, are all about the same level of threat (~0). Fearing seriously any of that is delusional. (In this country, in this era; back in medieval times it was perfectly rational to be deathly afraid of being exposed as a sodomist or falling off the edge of the world if you ventured too far.)

BTW, one of the two (wg_flamip or Acajack's healthcare professional friend) is most definitely delusional. Either the former is afraid for no reason, or the latter is catastrophically unaware he's been living in mortal peril all these years; it has to be one of the two.

I have never had the "safety" discussion with my friend, but my sense is that he definitely doesn't live in fear of being attacked. At least, nothing that would be related to his orientation, more than anything else. There are absolutely no psychological signs of feeling "besieged".

Which is another aspect of this debate: all of these people who feel "besieged".

When I go to Ottawa (or most anywhere outside Quebec) I am definitely in the minority as a francophone. Personally I don't have much of an accent in English but my kids definitely do. When we are there as a family (or even with my wife or friends) we speak French between us. I have Quebec plates on my car so that has "French" written all over it for most people.

I am not fully a "majority" guy in that setting.

There is also a "history" there: both on a national, societal level (not entirely resolved) and also on a personal level as I have already discussed.

But I don't feel besieged when I am at Tanger Outlets in Kanata or at Canada's Wonderland in the GTA, just because most people around me are part of the culture that was crappy to me as a francophone (and still can be, on occasion, on a "macro" level).

Is it really fair (to them) or mentally healthy (for me) to think that all those people are potentially the same as those — I had to deal with in junior high?

[Acajack]

I'd also add that not everyone within a single group has the same experiences and not everyone perceives them the same way.

In the places where I was mistreated by anglophones, I knew francophones who didn't get picked on for that reason. In retrospect, they didn't seem to do anything differently than I did, and neither did their families. But my experience was horrible and theirs was not - one of the guys who grew up in Anglocanadaville of Québécois parents (who were friends of mine) actually settled there permanently and is now something of a local notable.

And it's equally true of any other group. My black friend with 25 years spent in Quebec and who says he has never experienced racism lives in a city where some black people (I am sure) say the everyday level of racism is intolerable.

Who is right? Who is telling the truth?