The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[vid]

There is a difference between "as a white person, I felt unsafe around brown people in a particular setting" racism and "as a brown/black person, I feel unsafe in most places and don't feel I can trust authority to look out for my safety" racism. They're both bad, they both have a power imbalance and they both victimize people, but they're different in terms of where, when and for how long they can victimize.

To say that you are "privileged" isn't to say that you're less of a victim of racism during that specific situation or that that kind of behaviour is ok (it isn't), but you're on the whole less victimized by acts of racism throughout your life and within society, and you have more (but not total) control over when and where you get victimized. You have the privilege to walk away from acts of racism committed against you, and to go to a safe space where you don't get treated that way. This doesn't mean that the racist acts you experienced were less hurtful, less malicious, or less able to cause something like PTSD.

You felt unsafe at school, but still had the ability to walk away from that racism at the end of the day, just like I walked away from homophobia at my school by not going to it for months at a time. And I feel unsafe around drunk homeless native people because they behave unpredictably and do shout racial slurs at me (in as much as "whitey" is a racial slur, I suppose) but I have the privilege of going home to escape them and laughing about it afterwards. They have no homes and regularly have insults and garbage thrown at them. Both acts are racist (the latter is probably more classist than racist but racist policies led to them being in the state they're in, by and large), but one form of racism occurs over a longer period of time and is both more violent and less escapable. I am both a victim of racism, and privileged to be able to walk away from racism. The two ideas are not exclusive.

Using the racism of non-white people against other non-white people to justify white people's racism is... also kind of racist.

[vid]

To put it in different terms, individual acts of racism by Arabs against Whites in high school might be like having someone steal $100 from you ever month for 4 years. But for many non-white people in Canada, systemic racism is like having someone steal $25 from them every month for their entire life. Each individual act might be less violent or less traumatizing on its own, but the cumulative effect over time and the inability to escape that is more traumatizing in the long term. Especially when you consider that the police might often have an attitude of "well, they stole less than $50, so we're not too concerned about it."

[savevp]

I want to push back though, on the idea that a white person can simply leave an environment of racism and no one else has that privilege. Yes, most white people probably have that option on some level, but let's extend the school scenario further.

Let's say high school me also lives in that neighbourhood in Brampton, rather than just attending school. His experiences don't stop in school, they can impact him on the street just as much as any minority ethnic person anywhere. I would suggest the White man in a new Brampton subdivision would feel just as much the outsider as might the one Chinese family in Vulcan, Alberta. And, if my experience is any guide, that White man will experience casual and intentional racism quite regularly. He may well be systemically discriminated against in his community, primarily on a linguistic basis. His experience as being a targeted minority is possibly as central tenet of his life experience. He probably doesn't relate to white privilege. If anything, he probably sees some kind of 'brown privilege.'

Sure he probably has the ability to one day leave his community and escape the racism he faces. But by that same measure, the Black man being targeted routinely in WASP Estates, New Jersey could always move to Camden if he wants to escape his outsider status. In neither case is that an acceptable choice - needing to find a safe space away from your chosen home. I strongly disagree with the idea that the white person who had to leave his home to find a safe space is exercising privilege.

And just because the broader nation is more discriminatory to the Black man, that's of little comfort to the White man who will never feel welcome at the falafel joint up his street or who gets demeaned at the bus stop. It happens.

And on the flip side, there are undoubtedly lots of racialised people who don't feel they've been victimised by society, police, or whatever other grievances they're supposed to have.

All this is just my attempt to argue once more that the application of privilege to a race is not valid. I don't wish to deny the obvious fact that certain racial groups fare better than others here, and that there are internal and external factors that lead to continued negative outcomes for them. But, I still cannot accept the imposition of privileged or oppressed/victim status on an entire race. It doesn't reflect my own experiences, and I'm sure the quite widespread pushback against that culture is because lots and lots of people don't conform to these predetermined categorisations. And personally, I think this culture of dividing and classifying races will be looked at as abhorrent recidivism in the not far off future.

[333609543]

.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by vid

You have the privilege to walk away from acts of racism committed against you, and to go to a safe space where you don't get treated that way.

Am I the first one to notice how directly vid's argument applies to the guy in the video that generated this conversation? He totally has the "privilege" to choose to relocate to certain specific areas of Richmond or Markham, where he'll be able to live his life 100% in Mandarin, among people who all look like him, and he'll never ever be at risk of getting called "a — chink" from then on (i.e. successfully "walking away" from racism, and going to a "safe space" where he doesn't get treated that way).



(Wait, what's that you're saying? He shouldn't have to relocate to some section of Richmond...? Well, welcome to savevp's argument then.)

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by vid

There is a difference between "as a white person, I felt unsafe around brown people in a particular setting" racism and "as a brown/black person, I feel unsafe in most places and don't feel I can trust authority to look out for my safety" racism. They're both bad, they both have a power imbalance and they both victimize people, but they're different in terms of where, when and for how long they can victimize.

To say that you are "privileged" isn't to say that you're less of a victim of racism during that specific situation or that that kind of behaviour is ok (it isn't), but you're on the whole less victimized by acts of racism throughout your life and within society, and you have more (but not total) control over when and where you get victimized. You have the privilege to walk away from acts of racism committed against you, and to go to a safe space where you don't get treated that way. This doesn't mean that the racist acts you experienced were less hurtful, less malicious, or less able to cause something like PTSD.

You felt unsafe at school, but still had the ability to walk away from that racism at the end of the day, just like I walked away from homophobia at my school by not going to it for months at a time. And I feel unsafe around drunk homeless native people because they behave unpredictably and do shout racial slurs at me (in as much as "whitey" is a racial slur, I suppose) but I have the privilege of going home to escape them and laughing about it afterwards. They have no homes and regularly have insults and garbage thrown at them. Both acts are racist (the latter is probably more classist than racist but racist policies led to them being in the state they're in, by and large), but one form of racism occurs over a longer period of time and is both more violent and less escapable. I am both a victim of racism, and privileged to be able to walk away from racism. The two ideas are not exclusive.

Using the racism of non-white people against other non-white people to justify white people's racism is... also kind of racist.

Great post.

Preceded and followed by the usual mind-numbing inanity to be found in this thread.

Cheers to having the patience to wade through the muck.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

In your post up-thread, you casually used a slur that's been hurled at me countless times. People who've spat that slur at me have, on several occasions, accompanied it with violence or the threat of violence. So when someone yells that word at me in the streets, my response is emphatically not self-pity; rather, it's a visceral response to a very real potential threat to my safety.

Okay, but first, there's one question I'd like to ask, if you don't mind: when's the last time you spent a week in the hospital like Metro-One's brother?

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

It does, however, challenge each of us to cultivate empathy, humility and an awareness of our own limitations.

Yes, this is the key, the level many resist out of fear.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by vid

They have no homes and regularly have insults and garbage thrown at them.

If they have no homes, seems to me they have greater and more pressing problems than occasionally being on the receiving end of an insult; wouldn't you agree?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Yes, this is the key, the level many resist out of fear.

I think the key is how we actually treat others. And on that level, I assure you I sleep with a clear conscience every night.

In my opinion, my position is the optimal anti-racist one. Any further towards "anti-racism" and you're re-entering the territory of segregation and race obsession (resulting in a more tangibly racist society). So I'm sitting at the very top of the curve (and shaking my head at the people who went too far and are down on the other side).

[p_xavier]

Needs to be shared again. Reversed racism is still racism.
https://youtu.be/Ev373c7wSRg

[lio45]

Originally Posted by p_xavier

Needs to be shared again. Reversed racism is still racism.
https://youtu.be/Ev373c7wSRg

Missed it the first time. Thanks for re-sharing!

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by lio45

I think the key is how we actually treat others. And on that level, I assure you I sleep with a clear conscience every night.

In my opinion, my position is the optimal anti-racist one. Any further towards "anti-racism" and you're re-entering the territory of segregation and race obsession (resulting in a more tangibly racist society). So I'm sitting at the very top of the curve (and shaking my head at the people who went too far and are down on the other side).

Well you're obviously willing to use whatever mental gymnastics you need to come out on top. Any sociopath can get a good sleep at night. That doesn't really mean anything.

If you don't have a conscience or if it is underdeveloped would you really know if it was clean or not?

What has been clearly lacking is empathy.

[lio45]

Back in the early 2000s when I was in university, the university's internal soccer league had a reversed sexism rule, goals by female players were worth two goals. The idea of course was to encourage girls to be more aggressive. So, one good strategy was to park girls in front of the opposite goal and try to get the ball to them. Also, any team who happened to have a girl who was really good had struck gold.

I wonder if it's still the case nowadays. 15+ years ago my somewhat feminist gf found that rule outrageous (and disgustingly sexist). I figured that sooner or later the people in charge would realize their anti-sexist measure is actually super sexist, and they'd start to treat women like normal soccer players.

(I liked to point out that using that logic, goals by blacks or Arabs or any Europeans should have been worth 0.5 goal, as these international exchange students were all the best players.)

Imagine how much more attractive a player like P.K. Subban would be to his NHL team if any goal by him was worth two goals!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Well you're obviously willing to use whatever mental gymnastics you need to come out on top. Even sociopaths can get a good sleep at night. That doesn't really mean anything.

What has been clearly lacking is empathy.

I guess a good question though is what role empathy should play in the development of public policy and legislation.

I think it already plays a role to some degree, but how far should it go? And should it outweigh other factors and by how much?

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I guess a good question though is what role empathy should play in the development of public policy and legislation.

I think it already plays a role to some degree, but how far should it go? And should it outweigh other factors and by how much?

Those are very good questions.

[lio45]

There's limits to what level of empathy is desirable though. For example, if you run into a flat-earther or an anti-vaxxer, I wouldn't agree that the ideal behavior (from society's general point of view) is the empathic extreme of telling them they're fully correct and patting them in the back.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I guess a good question though is what role empathy should play in the development of public policy and legislation.

I think it already plays a role to some degree, but how far should it go? And should it outweigh other factors and by how much?

We almost certainly don't all agree on what's the most moral path of action, anyway.

Some people might genuinely consider that "Oh, you're indigenous? Poor you! That's so limiting! Hey, here's a free trailer in the middle of the woods, and we'll give you $x every month, free, just for existing" is a good way to channel this "empathy" into concrete action.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by savevp

I want to push back though, on the idea that a white person can simply leave an environment of racism and no one else has that privilege. Yes, most white people probably have that option on some level, but let's extend the school scenario further.

Let's say high school me also lives in that neighbourhood in Brampton, rather than just attending school. His experiences don't stop in school, they can impact him on the street just as much as any minority ethnic person anywhere. I would suggest the White man in a new Brampton subdivision would feel just as much the outsider as might the one Chinese family in Vulcan, Alberta. And, if my experience is any guide, that White man will experience casual and intentional racism quite regularly. He may well be systemically discriminated against in his community, primarily on a linguistic basis. His experience as being a targeted minority is possibly as central tenet of his life experience. He probably doesn't relate to white privilege. If anything, he probably sees some kind of 'brown privilege.'

Sure he probably has the ability to one day leave his community and escape the racism he faces. But by that same measure, the Black man being targeted routinely in WASP Estates, New Jersey could always move to Camden if he wants to escape his outsider status. In neither case is that an acceptable choice - needing to find a safe space away from your chosen home. I strongly disagree with the idea that the white person who had to leave his home to find a safe space is exercising privilege.

And just because the broader nation is more discriminatory to the Black man, that's of little comfort to the White man who will never feel welcome at the falafel joint up his street or who gets demeaned at the bus stop. It happens.

And on the flip side, there are undoubtedly lots of racialised people who don't feel they've been victimised by society, police, or whatever other grievances they're supposed to have.

All this is just my attempt to argue once more that the application of privilege to a race is not valid. I don't wish to deny the obvious fact that certain racial groups fare better than others here, and that there are internal and external factors that lead to continued negative outcomes for them. But, I still cannot accept the imposition of privileged or oppressed/victim status on an entire race. It doesn't reflect my own experiences, and I'm sure the quite widespread pushback against that culture is because lots and lots of people don't conform to these predetermined categorisations. And personally, I think this culture of dividing and classifying races will be looked at as abhorrent recidivism in the not far off future.

The whole argument that others are making about being able to "walk away" doesn't make sense because every experience even if based on group identities (black vs white, gay vs straight, etc.) is still totally personal. I was a francophone kid living in very anglo parts of Canada during the rise of the PQ and the first independence referendum. I was treated like — on a fairly regularly basis and was even brutalized physically on a few occasions. Even though at the time francophones in Quebec were getting all uppity and feeling powerful (and perhaps not always being 100% nice to Anglo-Quebecers) that didn't do — for me and what I was going through, even though we were in the same country and depending on the places I lived, that more franco-friendly environment was only a few hundred km away.

As I said, we go through these things personally.

Right now we have people claiming that some people can't lay claim to certain experiences based on certain characteristics (ie a white person can't be a victim of racism) and on the flipside is the insinuation that people who have other characteristics are automatically experts on discrimination and hate regardless of how much they have personally experienced, if any at all.

A health care professional I deal with who is also a casual friend of my wife and I is a Québécois gay male in his 40s. He is originally from a medium-sized city in Quebec and has lived in Gatineau since he launched his career. According to him, coming out as gay as a teen and living his adult life (so far) in Quebec, he has experienced "nearly zero" homophobia personally in his lifetime. He has also travelled really, really extensively by himself and with his husband, even to some surprising places and again has (in his opinion) never had any serious issues of any kind with homophobia.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by lio45

There's limits to what level of empathy is desirable though. For example, if you run into a flat-earther or an anti-vaxxer, I wouldn't agree that the ideal behavior (from society's general point of view) is the empathic extreme of telling them they're fully correct and patting them in the back.

Yes, because both of those things are based in delusions.

Having empathy doesn’t mean agreeing with everyone.

In those situations, you can empathize with the roots of their diverted thinking though. Why do they not trust such world views? What are the root causes? This is how therapists deal with psychosis. Attacking the beliefs themselves, as we see in this thread, is usually ineffective, because the delusion serves a purpose. The individual is threatened if you try to take that away, like a child when you take their soother. One must empathetically transition them to a new soother or a sootherless life.