Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0 - Page 735

OCCheetos · #**14681** Posted **Aug 6, 2020, 2:55 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The city need's to bite the bullet and buy a few more trains. Give RTG the funding to buy more trains and tell them to maintain them from their budget. 80 trains for Stage 1 and 2 would boost service reliability.

Part of me wonders if this was the real motivation behind the PTIF trains.

How many trains do we even need in service for Stage 2?

J.OT13 · #**14682** Posted **Aug 6, 2020, 12:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Part of me wonders if this was the real motivation behind the PTIF trains.

How many trains do we even need in service for Stage 2?

According to Shane's interview with Scrimgeour, of the 36 trains, 30 or 32 would be in service with 4 to 6 "spares".

passwordisnt123 · #**14683** Posted **Aug 6, 2020, 1:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketphish

RTG two trains short by city's deadline because of mandatory wheel inspections

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Aug 04, 2020 • Last Updated 2 hours ago • 2 minute read

[snip]

The city paid for 34 Alstom Citadis Spirit cars for Stage 1 LRT. The original plan was to have 15 double-car trains running at the busiest times with two spares. Before the pandemic, the city felt it needed only 13 double-car trains to provide peak service requirements, although there was optimism that RTG could get the other trains on the line to provide more capacity on a busy LRT system.

[snip]

That is certainly the most charitable wording for Manconi. I'd suggest another way of describing what happened would be to say that the City felt strongly enough that it needed to have 15 double-car trains running at the busiest times with two spares so they wrote 15 and 17 trains into the effing contract.

When RTG/Alstom became incapable of producing the deliverables they were contracted to produce and political pressure started mounting, Manconi simply asserted without evidence that the city now for some reason only needed 13 double-car trains even when pictures of stations for months after launch showed dangerous overcrowding. Then, while still asserting that all we needed was 13 double-car trains, he was at the same time pushing RTG/Alstom hard to deliver the 17 cars we ordered saying that they were needed.

Nobody has ever explored or explained that obvious contradiction to my satisfaction. If 13 cars were all that were needed, why'd we write the contract for 17 and why was Manconi pushing so hard for RTG to deliver 17 if it wasn't needed? And why did the timing of this sudden change in requirements coincide so perfectly with exactly the point in time when it was needed to save Watson and Manconi's hides?

Show me any project manager who would be happy forgoing a contract requirement by accepting delivery of 13/17ths of a deliverable and I'll show you an incompetent or corrupt project manager.

J.OT13 · #**14684** Posted **Aug 6, 2020, 5:32 PM**

Happy Goat Coffee construction begins

Construction will begin August 3 and is expected to be completed by late September.

https://www.octranspo.com/en/news/article/happy-goat-coffee-construction-begins-Aug3/

J.OT13 · #**14685** Posted **Aug 6, 2020, 5:33 PM**

St-Laurent Station artwork reinstallation

St-Laurent Station is home to three large, immersive murals painted by Andrew Morrow that depict re-imagined Canadian histories. Two of the murals are located on the westbound platform, while the third is a corner-split mural on the eastbound platform.

The murals are large-scale digital prints that have been reproduced on a vinyl canvass with a protective plexiglass cover. A buildup of moisture has been frequently observed that requires ongoing maintenance of both the art and its protective treatments.

In close collaboration with the artist, crews will be removing the plexiglass-covered vinyl prints and replacing them with the same large-scale digital print on a vinyl aluminum composite substrate material.

Work is anticipated to take place nightly between 12:30 AM and 5:30 AM starting the week of August 3. Should work be required during the day, it will be coordinated by OC Transpo and Rideau Transit Maintenance to minimize the impact on operations and transit customers.

This reinstallation effort will remove the need for the plexiglass cover, decrease maintenance, and result in a more resilient and vibrant art display for transit riders to enjoy in the years to come.

https://www.octranspo.com/en/news/article/st-laurent-station-artwork-reinstallation/

TransitZilla · #**14686** Posted **Aug 6, 2020, 7:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

That is certainly the most charitable wording for Manconi. I'd suggest another way of describing what happened would be to say that the City felt strongly enough that it needed to have 15 double-car trains running at the busiest times with two spares so they wrote 15 and 17 trains into the effing contract.

When RTG/Alstom became incapable of producing the deliverables they were contracted to produce and political pressure started mounting, Manconi simply asserted without evidence that the city now for some reason only needed 13 double-car trains even when pictures of stations for months after launch showed dangerous overcrowding. Then, while still asserting that all we needed was 13 double-car trains, he was at the same time pushing RTG/Alstom hard to deliver the 17 cars we ordered saying that they were needed.

Nobody has ever explored or explained that obvious contradiction to my satisfaction. If 13 cars were all that were needed, why'd we write the contract for 17 and why was Manconi pushing so hard for RTG to deliver 17 if it wasn't needed? And why did the timing of this sudden change in requirements coincide so perfectly with exactly the point in time when it was needed to save Watson and Manconi's hides?

Show me any project manager who would be happy forgoing a contract requirement by accepting delivery of 13/17ths of a deliverable and I'll show you an incompetent or corrupt project manager.

It's pretty clear at this point that there were vehicle issues and that RTG was likely projecting several months before they would have 17 trains available. The city wanted to be able to launch, so they agreed to launch with only 15 available on the understanding that 17 would be available a few months later.
I guess the numbers indicated 13 trains would be OK so it was thought to be a reasonable compromise to allow the launch to proceed.

In hindsight it seems obvious it was the wrong decision, but the technical issues that surfaced were obviously much worse than they anticipated. And it has taken RTG much longer to deliver the 17 trains than they promised. But we didn't have dangerous crowding because only 13 trains were running; we had dangerous crowding because there were service interruptions where no trains were running.

OCCheetos · #**14687** Posted **Aug 6, 2020, 8:05 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

That is certainly the most charitable wording for Manconi. I'd suggest another way of describing what happened would be to say that the City felt strongly enough that it needed to have 15 double-car trains running at the busiest times with two spares so they wrote 15 and 17 trains into the effing contract.

When RTG/Alstom became incapable of producing the deliverables they were contracted to produce and political pressure started mounting, Manconi simply asserted without evidence that the city now for some reason only needed 13 double-car trains even when pictures of stations for months after launch showed dangerous overcrowding. Then, while still asserting that all we needed was 13 double-car trains, he was at the same time pushing RTG/Alstom hard to deliver the 17 cars we ordered saying that they were needed.

Nobody has ever explored or explained that obvious contradiction to my satisfaction. If 13 cars were all that were needed, why'd we write the contract for 17 and why was Manconi pushing so hard for RTG to deliver 17 if it wasn't needed? And why did the timing of this sudden change in requirements coincide so perfectly with exactly the point in time when it was needed to save Watson and Manconi's hides?

Show me any project manager who would be happy forgoing a contract requirement by accepting delivery of 13/17ths of a deliverable and I'll show you an incompetent or corrupt project manager.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradnixon

It's pretty clear at this point that there were vehicle issues and that RTG was likely projecting several months before they would have 17 trains available. The city wanted to be able to launch, so they agreed to launch with only 15 available on the understanding that 17 would be available a few months later.
I guess the numbers indicated 13 trains would be OK so it was thought to be a reasonable compromise to allow the launch to proceed.

In hindsight it seems obvious it was the wrong decision, but the technical issues that surfaced were obviously much worse than they anticipated. And it has taken RTG much longer to deliver the 17 trains than they promised. But we didn't have dangerous crowding because only 13 trains were running; we had dangerous crowding because there were service interruptions where no trains were running.

I don't know how this story got started (well I do, it was Joanne Chianello) but the Confederation Line launched with 17 trains in the fleet. We know that all 34 vehicles in the fleet were spotted in service within a couple of weeks of launch by several people in the community.

Whether it was because they couldn't provide adequate maintenance, or because of retrofits they needed to complete, or because they foresaw vehicle issues, what is pretty clear is that they realized they needed to adjust their spare ratio from 15 in-service / 1 hot spare / 1 maintenance spare to 13 in-service / 2 hot spares / 2 maintenance spares.

We now have at least 19 trains in the fleet allowing for 15 in-service / 2 hot spares / 2 maintenance spares (barring wheel inspections, of course).

J.OT13 · #**14688** Posted **Aug 6, 2020, 8:32 PM**

The thing that was frustrating is that Manconi drilled the 12 consecutive days of testing and 15 service trains for months (maybe years), and once the number dropped to 9 days and 13 trains, he was calling everyone else crazy. Kind of like Trump.

Not saying Manconi is like Trump. One is an egotistic, narcissist sociopath compulsive liar while the other is just following orders.

lrt's friend · #**14689** Posted **Aug 6, 2020, 8:43 PM**

Do we actually have 19 train pairs available? It seems to me that the maximum available to put in service is still 13 at any particular time. Whether it is mandatory maintenance or not, we still can't get 15 trains into service as promised and that is after 11 months of operations.

p_xavier · #**14690** Posted **Aug 6, 2020, 8:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Do we actually have 19 train pairs available? It seems to me that the maximum available to put in service is still 13 at any particular time. Whether it is mandatory maintenance or not, we still can't get 15 trains into service as promised and that is after 11 months of operations.

Ottawa is the first city I know to have built on purpose a metro system with streetcars, it was a risk and the city is paying for it.

OCCheetos · #**14691** Posted **Aug 6, 2020, 8:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Do we actually have 19 train pairs available? It seems to me that the maximum available to put in service is still 13 at any particular time. Whether it is mandatory maintenance or not, we still can't get 15 trains into service as promised and that is after 11 months of operations.

Well, I don't know how you define the two maintenance spares, but if you count them as "available" then yes.

We're still going to be running 15 trains with 2 hot spares which isn't possible with a fleet of only 17.

lrt's friend · #**14692** Posted **Aug 6, 2020, 8:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Well, I don't know how you define the two maintenance spares, but if you count them as "available" then yes.

We're still going to be running 15 trains with 2 hot spares which isn't possible with a fleet of only 17.

So, are we actually running 15 trains today?

OCCheetos · #**14693** Posted **Aug 6, 2020, 8:56 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_xavier

Ottawa is the first city I know to have built on purpose a metro system with streetcars, it was a risk and the city is paying for it.

A risk yes, but not for these reasons. The risk was always known to be with its integration with ATO and CBTC (which was unproven) and we've seen those integration issues which I would still describe as teething issues, but beyond that..

What about them being a streetcar, which isn't really accurate anyway since they're "tram-trains", would cause all of this? Are we accelerating these vehicles too hard? Are they carrying too many people?

On paper it should work. It's obviously not as optimal as a high floor metro system, but it should work. Even in practice, there's no reason it shouldn't just work and we've seen a long list of maintenance and infrastructure failures that explain the mess we're in so I don't know why we've circled back so far onto the whole streetcar thing. Streetcars aren't supposed to be fragile.

OCCheetos · #**14694** Posted **Aug 6, 2020, 9:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

So, are we actually running 15 trains today?

If you want to draw the lines like that we have 13 in-service / 2 hot spares / 4 maintenance spares.

But since wheel inspections aren't really supposed to be part of the regular maintenance regiment, my point is that we have the vehicles in the entire fleet to support 15/2/2 when the wheel inspections end.

J.OT13 · #**14695** Posted **Aug 6, 2020, 9:11 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_xavier

Ottawa is the first city I know to have built on purpose a metro system with streetcars, it was a risk and the city is paying for it.

I agree that using streetcars for a metro system was a bad idea, but I don't think that's the root of all of our reliability problems. Montreal and Toronto have had issues with their new fleet at well. It took a year or two to fix their problems. NYC is having major problems with their new Bombardier fleet as well.