Highways in Canada

[urbandreamer]

If you want fast, just stay in the fast lane of the 401. 120kph by day, 140kph by night.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

If you want fast, just stay in the fast lane of the 401. 120kph by day, 140kph by night.

Sorry, fast lane? There's no fast lane on the 401 when it's jammed with traffic between Milton and Oshawa.

[urbandreamer]

During rush hour maybe. I avoid the peak hours. The longest it's taken me to get from my KW home (midtown KW) to my Toronto place (downtown west) is 2 hours and that was in a snowstorm. Typically it takes 1 hour 10 minutes, exactly 100km. When the highways were empty in March I could do it in under an hour.

[swimmer_spe]

In MB, SK and AB, many of their major highways are twined, but they lack full grade separation. There are cross roads and some are signalized. Would that work in Northern ON to lower the costs down?

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

In MB, SK and AB, many of their major highways are twined, but they lack full grade separation. There are cross roads and some are signalized. Would that work in Northern ON to lower the costs down?

MTO already does this in northern Ontario..

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

In MB, SK and AB, many of their major highways are twined, but they lack full grade separation. There are cross roads and some are signalized. Would that work in Northern ON to lower the costs down?

It would reduce cost a bit, but the large majority of cost for road-building is blasting and filling in Northern Ontario.

Driving down the divided Highway 69, there are some absolutely huge rock cuts and sections that are filled in order to maintain acceptable grades and curve radii.

Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba proportionally have more cost for interchange construction, so sacrificing that more effectively lowers cost.

That being said, the high-speed, 6-ramp interchanges for podunk side roads and kilometres of access roads required to reach the next interchange do seem excessive in light of the traffic volumes.

[Dengler Avenue]

Also, with the kind of terrain that Northern Ontario has, it’s sometimes better to grade-separate than to leave it at-grade.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

MTO already does this in northern Ontario..

In my observation, twinned sections of highway with at-grade intersections are pretty rare in northern Ontario. There might a few stretches, but not that many really. Stretches of Highway 11 south of North Bay are probably the only significant examples. Is this what you had in mind?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The 407 is too expensive for the normal person to take the full length to avoid Toronto. I've only ever driven the full length in work vehicles. Although now it does directly connect to the 401 east of Toronto so that's nice.

How much is the toll for someone in a car to drive from one end of the 407 to the other?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

It would reduce cost a bit, but the large majority of cost for road-building is blasting and filling in Northern Ontario.

Driving down the divided Highway 69, there are some absolutely huge rock cuts and sections that are filled in order to maintain acceptable grades and curve radii.

Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba proportionally have more cost for interchange construction, so sacrificing that more effectively lowers cost.

That being said, the high-speed, 6-ramp interchanges for podunk side roads and kilometres of access roads required to reach the next interchange do seem excessive in light of the traffic volumes.

Even with the geography and terrain, I've always thought that much of the 11, 17 and 69 corridors in northern Ontario could be fairly easily twinned with at-grade intersections. They run through many unpopulated areas and the right-of-way is usually wide enough for two carriageways - even where it's been blasted.

In places where it's a bit tight, there is nothing preventing them from installing a concrete jersey barrier in the middle.

Here is an example of a jersey barrier on a pretty narrow segment that was blasted through rock:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.6459763,-...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

How much is the toll for someone in a car to drive from one end of the 407 to the other?

If you want to bypass Toronto it's about 50-60 bucks one way.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If you want to bypass Toronto it's about 50-60 bucks one way.

Thanks.

Yeah, wow... at that price it's not something I'd imagine many people do on a regular basis.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

How much is the toll for someone in a car to drive from one end of the 407 to the other?

It depends on the time of day and day of the week.

From the QEW in Burlington to 35/115 in Peterborough at peak times without a transponder, you could spend nearly $80.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In my observation, twinned sections of highway with at-grade intersections are pretty rare in northern Ontario. There might a few stretches, but not that many really. Stretches of Highway 11 south of North Bay are probably the only significant examples. Is this what you had in mind?

The 4-lane divided portion of Thunder Bay Expressway only has 1 interchange.
Where space is tight, like Nipigon Bridge west approach, MTO straight up leaves the 4 lanes undivided.

[Innsertnamehere]

The 407 with a transponder to drive from the QEW to Highway 35/115, a distance of about 151km, costs $75.12 in the evening weekday rush hour right now.

Almost nobody drives that full distance though.

A more common trip may be 401 to 401 via the 418, say if you were coming from Kitchener and going to Kingston or Montreal. That costs $56.51. Still pricey, but in the evening rush hour probably saves you over an hour of traffic. if you use the 412 instead you save $6.

I use it to go to cottage country usually, and take it from the QEW to the 403 and then again from the 410 to the 400. Costs me $26.51 to do that, and saves me about 30 minutes on the drive and a whole lot of sanity. Otherwise it's fighting across the QEW through Oakville and Burlington and through the gauntlet that is the 401 between the 400 and 427.

In a year the 427 is going to finish being widened and I expect I'll be able to take that instead of the 410, so the cost will drop to $19.72 for going to the cottage.

I also use it for work travel a lot, at least pre-pandemic, as I can expense it.

[Acajack]

The last time I took the 407 was before they opened the 412 and 418 links in Durham. So I drove up some road in the Oshawa-Whitby area to the 407, and got off it at the 403 in Mississauga. Got a bill in the mail for about 30 bucks a month or so later.

I understand toll rates have gone up since then.

I was going to Niagara so I drove back through the U.S. Tolls there too on the Thruway of course.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Even with the geography and terrain, I've always thought that much of the 11, 17 and 69 corridors in northern Ontario could be fairly easily twinned with at-grade intersections. They run through many unpopulated areas and the right-of-way is usually wide enough for two carriageways - even where it's been blasted.

In places where it's a bit tight, there is nothing preventing them from installing a concrete jersey barrier in the middle.

Here is an example of a jersey barrier on a pretty narrow segment that was blasted through rock:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.6459763,-...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

It depends on how and where you want to do that.

On 11 between New Liskeard and Geraldton, it wouldn't be super expensive to create a 400-series highway. On 17 hugging the Superior shoreline north of the Sault, it's a different story.

It also comes down to what kind of standard of highway you want. If you want 400-series standards (large right of way, big curve radii, large median, moderate grades and access at interchanges only) on challenging terrain means bucks.

If you want an undivided 4-lane (or 2+1) road with at-grade intersections for minor roads, interchanges only at major intersections and to much lower standards, it's a different equation.

IMO, the biggest problem with 2 lane highways that are somewhat busy is reckless passing. People get stuck behind someone going slower, get frustrated and pass where it's not safe. A four-lane undivided road allows passing to happen at one's leisure. It also allows forgiveness in inclement weather conditions as they tend to become larger '2-lane' roads with a large buffer to oncoming traffic.

Sections of 17 and 11 could be made into something like Highway 10 north of Brampton and get most of the benefit of 4-lanes at a fraction of the cost.

[Dengler Avenue]

“ On 17 hugging the Superior shoreline north of the Sault, it's a different story.”
swimmer_spe would love to tell you the kind of madness that I’m doing right now.
I think he’s simply salty that I’m taking away his motorcycling route.
(I will show you guys a map after brunch.)

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by wave46

It depends on how and where you want to do that.

On 11 between New Liskeard and Geraldton, it wouldn't be super expensive to create a 400-series highway. On 17 hugging the Superior shoreline north of the Sault, it's a different story.

It also comes down to what kind of standard of highway you want. If you want 400-series standards (large right of way, big curve radii, large median, moderate grades and access at interchanges only) on challenging terrain means bucks.

If you want an undivided 4-lane (or 2+1) road with at-grade intersections for minor roads, interchanges only at major intersections and to much lower standards, it's a different equation.

IMO, the biggest problem with 2 lane highways that are somewhat busy is reckless passing. People get stuck behind someone going slower, get frustrated and pass where it's not safe. A four-lane undivided road allows passing to happen at one's leisure. It also allows forgiveness in inclement weather conditions as they tend to become larger '2-lane' roads with a large buffer to oncoming traffic.

Sections of 17 and 11 could be made into something like Highway 10 north of Brampton and get most of the benefit of 4-lanes at a fraction of the cost.

Undivided, but with rumble strips, 4 laned highways for 11, 17 and a few others would be a great start. At cross roads, bump it out a bit, put in barriers and full lanes for deceleration and acceleration.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

“ On 17 hugging the Superior shoreline north of the Sault, it's a different story.”
swimmer_spe would love to tell you the kind of madness that I’m doing right now.
I think he’s simply salty that I’m taking away his motorcycling route.
(I will show you guys a map after brunch.)

What part of Highway 17 was the last to be connected?
Why?

I'd bet the section between SSM and Nipigon would be abut the same cost as North Bay to Nipgon via 11. After New Liskard, it is easy to work with.

[DavefromSt.Vital]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In my observation, twinned sections of highway with at-grade intersections are pretty rare in northern Ontario. There might a few stretches, but not that many really. Stretches of Highway 11 south of North Bay are probably the only significant examples. Is this what you had in mind?

Highway 17 from Sault Ste. Marie SE to 548 is twinned four lanes but mostly at grade intersections.