Ideas/Visions for Ottawa, Canada's Capital

[acottawa]

I think Toulouse could give Ottawa a run for its money.

https://youtu.be/432CraSe9gY

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by wave46

That's harder to say, simply because there's not many isolated metros of only a million or so people in Europe or especially Asia. Is Birmingham that much more lively than Ottawa? Or Toulouse? I'd say on average, you'd be right, but I don't think the difference is as stark as it is made to be because Ottawa does fairly well. I suspect it would come down to a city-to-city comparison.

Birmingham? Probably not. Toulouse? Absolutely. Folks in my office love the opportunity to visit Airbus, specifically because of Toulouse. And that's just the norm for European small and mid-sized metros. Their density enables them to be more lively.

Originally Posted by wave46

Ottawa is kind of in a twilight zone. It's good for North America as it's the capital of a major country and does have some decent urban fabric. It does badly compared to much larger cities and cities that are the respective centres of their country in addition to being the capital (say, Helsinki).

I mean, if this was a comparison of Oklahoma City to Toulouse, sure, no comparison.

If Ottawa residents think that their aspirations should be limited to better than Birmingham, Alabama and Oklahoma city, than I guess we should be content that we've met the goal and move on.

Originally Posted by wave46

Austin and Portland are the exception, not the rule. The average metro area of a million to two million people in North America is closer to Kansas City than Ottawa.

Austin's metro area population is nearly 2.3 million. Portland's is nearly 2.5 million. They are closer in size to Vancouver than Ottawa. You want comparable MSA populations in the US? New Orleans, Memphis, Louisville, Salt Lake City and OKC.

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think Toulouse could give Ottawa a run for its money.

https://youtu.be/432CraSe9gY

Could? It absolutely does. And that's a function of most European small and midsized metros doing a great job following the principles in the video I posted earlier:

• Video Link

[acottawa]

I wonder to the extent the way food and alcohol are taxed and the expectation of tipping 15-20% (really for a few minutes of actual work) plays a role.

I am always struck by how much cheaper it is to eat or drink (at a local place) in most places in Europe.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I wonder to the extent the way food and alcohol are taxed and the expectation of tipping 15-20% (really for a few minutes of actual work) plays a role.

I am always struck by how much cheaper it is to eat or drink (at a local place) in most places in Europe.

What’s the connection to how dynamic a city is/is not?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

What’s the connection to how dynamic a city is/is not?

It makes it much more expensive to go out, reducing the number of people out and about on a regular basis.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I wonder to the extent the way food and alcohol are taxed and the expectation of tipping 15-20% (really for a few minutes of actual work) plays a role.

I am always struck by how much cheaper it is to eat or drink (at a local place) in most places in Europe.

I think we're used to it in Canada, so the impact is probably negligible.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think we're used to it in Canada, so the impact is probably negligible.

I don’t know, seems much less common here than in Europe or Asia.

[caveat.doctor]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It makes it much more expensive to go out, reducing the number of people out and about on a regular basis.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think we're used to it in Canada, so the impact is probably negligible.

Interesting question! This Nielsen survey from 2017 suggests North Americans dine out more frequently than other regions - though the choice of venue differs by continent.

Originally Posted by wave46

Ottawa - for its population and location in the world - is quite lively.

But yes, I suspect your thesis is correct. The more suburban nature of the city, the less lively it is. Which is kind of the point of the suburbs, I guess. Quiet, peaceful and solitude from others.

I agree that Ottawa is more fundamentally suburban overall and that's part of the draw for people who choose to stay/come here over other places. I don't think changing that overall nature is necessary or realistic, but rather having areas of high-quality lively density are what will make everyone happy: urban dwellers who want that lifestyle, and the rest of the city's suburbanites who don't, but like to enjoy it from time to time.

For me the two main things missing from our "urban" fabric are

1) a true waterfront mixed-use community: so much greenspace useable only by car along the river and so little development along the canal despite pockets of Amsterdam-able potential. Zibi might change this - high hopes!

2) indoor public space: for a city that has so much of the year in suboptimal outdoor conditions, we lack something like a winter garden space to be out yet not. Something like the atrium at the National Portrait Gallery in Washington would be ideal: year-round touch of greenery with a kid friendly splash area, cafe/bar, and it's free!


Image from https://www.daybreaker.com/event/cherry-...-courtyard-national-portrait-gallery-dc/

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by caveat.doctor

...suggests North Americans dine out more frequently than other regions - though the choice of venue differs by continent.

I think some of this has to do with work provided amenities. In some places in Europe, workplaces provide lunch. Or there's the siesta in some countries, where quite a few will go home lunch. Or there's the light breakfast of a coffee and croissant, typical in Europe. Easily done at home. Though often enjoyed in Cafes. But nothing compared to North America where breakfast is a huge profit centre for our biggest fast food chains.

Originally Posted by caveat.doctor

1) a true waterfront mixed-use community: so much greenspace useable only by car along the river and so little development along the canal despite pockets of Amsterdam-able potential. Zibi might change this - high hopes!

Counting on developers to build the amenities the city needs, with no firm requirements, is always a bad idea.

Originally Posted by caveat.doctor

2) indoor public space: for a city that has so much of the year in suboptimal outdoor conditions, we lack something like a winter garden space to be out yet not. Something like the atrium at the National Portrait Gallery in Washington would be ideal: year-round touch of greenery with a kid friendly splash area, cafe/bar, and it's free!

I've often wondered this. Europe and Asia have some covered streets. And most of them in climates a lot less harsh than ours. We built malls in North America. But nothing like this:





Imagine a roof over every street in the core part of the market and fully pedestrianised. No need to heat and winterize. Just put up the roof.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I wonder to the extent the way food and alcohol are taxed and the expectation of tipping 15-20% (really for a few minutes of actual work) plays a role.

I am always struck by how much cheaper it is to eat or drink (at a local place) in most places in Europe.

That has never been my impression - at least not for table service restaurants.

Every single person or family I know in Europe eats (or ate) out far less often than my family, or what I observe among my friends here. And they all cite the high cost of dining out there.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That has never been my impression - at least not for table service restaurants.

Every single person or family I know in Europe eats (or ate) out far less often than my family, or what I observe among my friends here. And they all cite the high cost of dining out there.

Maybe fine dining and tourist places, but in most European countries people are at local places like Bistros, Osterias, cafes, pubs on a regular basis that are not expensive (particularly if you are not ordering a full multi course meal). This helps to drive activity on streets and dynamism.

[lrt's friend]

How to make a walkable city

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cL5Nud8d7w&t=102s

[caveat.doctor]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think some of this has to do with work provided amenities. In some places in Europe, workplaces provide lunch. Or there's the siesta in some countries, where quite a few will go home lunch. Or there's the light breakfast of a coffee and croissant, typical in Europe. Easily done at home. Though often enjoyed in Cafes. But nothing compared to North America where breakfast is a huge profit centre for our biggest fast food chains.

That's probably part of it. If North America's dining out was focused more on evening/afternoon meals that would probably be more conducive to the kind of dining out that adds to street life and vibrancy.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Counting on developers to build the amenities the city needs, with no firm requirements, is always a bad idea.

Or more to the point, when the city/NCC seem to be actively opposed to improving intensity of use along the waterfront, we're stuck with bad ideas from generations past.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Imagine a roof over every street in the core part of the market and fully pedestrianised. No need to heat and winterize. Just put up the roof.

This was the impetus to finally make a trip out to Tanger Outlets today (that and being an outdoor mall it's more conducive to COVID prevention) - I guess it's the only place in town where that roofed and pedestrianised approach was picked up. It's actually not a bad place to wander around, if only there were more restaurants with patios and things other than retail it could have made a bit of a town centre:











The food court was emptied of tables and chairs to support physical distancing, but there are plenty of benches around the mall, and even a nice little waterfront park towards Huntmar Rd.



Too bad it's still in the middle of nowhere surrounded by a parking lot. Had they just put up regular neighbourhoods around it instead it could've been a decent mixed development.



-

On another note, Elgin has turned out quite nicely I think. Still some finishing touches needed but the added patio space is proving its worth:

[lrt's friend]

The following is a very long video, but it provides a discussion on many interesting topics by arguably the top experts on urban walkability and transit planning, which are very much complementary topics. The idea of personal freedom in transit planning is a concept that we do not pay enough attention to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbedOjxE7OE

[lrt's friend]

A video on building great public spaces. And yes, greenery is part of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7fRIGphgtk

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Maybe fine dining and tourist places, but in most European countries people are at local places like Bistros, Osterias, cafes, pubs on a regular basis that are not expensive (particularly if you are not ordering a full multi course meal). This helps to drive activity on streets and dynamism.

Perhaps I am wrong but I don't count grabbing a Subway and wolfing it down at one of their tables as eating out in a restaurant.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Perhaps I am wrong but I don't count grabbing a Subway and wolfing it down at one of their tables as eating out in a restaurant.

I don’t think I suggested it was.

[YOWflier]

My impression has always been that dining out in Europe is generally pretty affordable. And even though almost everyone complains about how expensive it is, restaurants always seem to be busy. And no, I'm not talking about Subway.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Birmingham? Probably not. Toulouse? Absolutely. Folks in my office love the opportunity to visit Airbus, specifically because of Toulouse. And that's just the norm for European small and mid-sized metros. Their density enables them to be more lively.

If Ottawa residents think that their aspirations should be limited to better than Birmingham, Alabama and Oklahoma city, than I guess we should be content that we've met the goal and move on.

I was referring to Birmingham, UK. I want Ottawa to be more 'dynamic' and have made suggestions to that end, but I also acknowledge that there's no bigger fool's errand than to try and make a city into something its residents don't really want.

Dynamic cities are the product of the mentality of their population, not the other way around. That sounds like defeatism, sure, but a lot of the suggestions here strike me as big 'top-down' instead of 'bottom-up' ideas. It's a product of a government minds, in a sense. I see this a lot in any industry - the culture inhibits thinking out of the box.

If one wanted a dynamic city, create a big cheap moderate-density housing stock with not-completely terrible economic prospects. Or get lucky and ride the wave of some nascent industry. Think Montreal in the 1980s/1990s, New York City in the 1970s through the 1990s, or Seattle in the 1980s. Then ride the wave of a generation flowing into the city. It's not really something that can be imposed from above.

In the housing sense, Hull probably has a better chance at that than gentrified Ottawa.

Austin's metro area population is nearly 2.3 million. Portland's is nearly 2.5 million. They are closer in size to Vancouver than Ottawa. You want comparable MSA populations in the US? New Orleans, Memphis, Louisville, Salt Lake City and OKC.

Ok, but culture comes down to it, mostly. Comparing Oklahoma City to New Orleans comes to mind.

I still say that the vast majority of North American cities of Ottawa's size are much more comparatively dull. European/Asian cities are better on average, but that's a product of their cultural mentality.

[kwoldtimer]

Would it be fair to say that the two universities punch below their weight in terms of contributions to a dynamic Ottawa?