The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You sound like someone who isn't pleased about the effects and true impacts of what they've unleashed.

Brace yourself. WASP people haven't really started complaining about discrimination against them yet.

True impact = how you feel

So therefore your perceived or desired "true impact".

I'm not basing reality around some people in an internet discussion chat.

I don't know anyone who speaks about these issues in the ways I have heard here. Not everyone I know is "woke" or whatnot but they listen, they aren't obstinate brick walls, their first instinct isn't denial, and they are readily willing to acknowledge issues of race. So I'm not personally worried.

If that's a bubble, so be it. I don't plan on changing my environment anytime soon.

Why I continue to engage in this discussion is something I don't really understand. It has addictive components and my ego gets activated I guess.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Because language discrimination is not racism?

(...)

This line of discussion is so utterly tone deaf I'm surprised that it hasn't been picked up by some left-leaning website and ridiculed. Perhaps mods should change this to "The not so great language discrimination in Canada thread" to nip it in the bud.

I can't help but suspect you're being a bit two-faced here. (Based on some of your previous posts.)

By the standards you seem to have now, a incident in Vancouver or Richmond of graffiti on an ad on a bus stop or a bench, that says "go back home we don't want your kind here" in spray paint on an ad that is 100% in Chinese characters, is kind of okay, right?

(The exact same graffiti on an unilingual English billboard advertising the services of John W. Chang, lawyer in Vancouver, would be an unacceptable and racist incident, we're in agreement.)

[CivicBlues]

Ok, which one of you guys was at the Missisauga T&T this afternoon?

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2020/07/08/a...ist-tirade-at-mississauga-grocery-store/

Originally Posted by lio45

By the standards you seem to have now, a incident in Vancouver or Richmond of graffiti on an ad on a bus stop or a bench, that says "go back home we don't want your kind here" in spray paint on an ad that is 100% in Chinese characters, is kind of okay, right?

(The exact same graffiti on an unilingual English billboard advertising the services of John W. Chang, lawyer in Vancouver, would be an unacceptable and racist incident, we're in agreement.)

Umm, both are not acceptable because Chinese language is inextricably tied to the Asian race (especially with racists)...same if a sign in Hebrew or Arabic were defaced.

[lio45]

Language is an "inextricable tie", now? What happened to

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Oh no what ever can they do to alleviate this gross injustice besides oh, I don't know, learning English?

?

I guess I'll have to continue to whine that Vancouver is being Racist to poor old Inextricably Francophone me.

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by lio45

Language is an "inextricable tie", now? What happened to?

I guess I'll have to continue to whine that Vancouver is being Racist to poor old Inextricably Francophone me.

One scenario illustrates being unable to land a job due to poor English skills. The other an advertisement targeted to others of the same ethnic background being defaced by an outsider.

I'm not saying Francophones should stop speaking French or that Chinese should stop writing in Chinese Characters. But adverse results arising from poor language skills is not an example of racism. And before you say anything, racist graffiti is not an "adverse result", it's just plain racist.

[lio45]

We're not that far from being in agreement, but I was indeed going to point out (I only saw your edit later) that I'd file that sort of incident under "adverse results arising from failing to realize that the place where you're currently living wasn't a linguistic blank slate when you arrived and that some Old Stock Locals may be irritated by your very conspicuous refusal to recognize that fact".

Oh, and it's not racist graffiti, it's linguist graffiti. The distinction is important. (Honestly, how often do ads from people like Robert J. Leung, Notary get defaced by racist graffiti in this city? Honest question.)

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by lio45

We're not that far from being in agreement, but I was indeed going to point out (I only saw your edit later) that I'd file that sort of incident under "adverse results arising from failing to realize that the place where you're currently living wasn't a linguistic blank slate when you arrived and that some Old Stock Locals may be irritated by your very conspicuous refusal to recognize that fact".

Oh, and it's not racist graffiti, it's linguist graffiti. The distinction is important. (Honestly, how often do ads from people like Robert J. Leung, Notary get defaced by racist graffiti in this city? Honest question.)

Not too often, but enough to warrant media reports even before Covid times. A couple of years ago when "Crazy Rich Asians" - an American movie - came out, posters of them at bus stops were defaced, unsurprisingly.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by lio45

I think everyone is aware it not only "exists" but is quite literally written into law in this country - we still have official legal segregation on a purely ethnic/ancestry basis going on in 2020, as extraordinary and mind-blowing as that sounds by typical First World Democracies standards.

I was actually referring to the Supreme Court of Canada's decision in R. v. Gladue, in which it directed and required judges to take judicial notice of the systemic discrimination that aboriginal people have suffered. Further the SCC held that the discrimination is the responsibility of the Canadian governments that administer the criminal law. “The Canadian criminal justice system has failed the Aboriginal peoples of Canada.”

[lio45]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Umm, both are not acceptable because Chinese language is inextricably tied to the Asian race (especially with racists)...same if a sign in Hebrew or Arabic were defaced.

BTW, just to illustrate the difference... should a sign in unilingual Hebrew or Arabic pop up (at least in the second main province of this country), it's The Government that'll step in and take care of it (and the poor sign will not get off as lightly as merely getting "defaced", it'll be mercilessly eliminated).

Meanwhile, it's officially illegal to discriminate against someone on the sole grounds of them being ethnically Middle Eastern. (As it should.)

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

Arguing that systemic racism does not exist at all in our society, despite the fact that it is so well accepted that our courts take judicial notice of the fact, is a pretty untenable position. Not sure it amounts to "not listening" but...

Can we just all agree that systemic racism exists* and actually talk about the specific policies that lead to racist outcomes? Perhaps it's naïve of me to think we can as it might be easier for people to virtue signal and argue about whether it does or does not exist than answer the tough question of what the true root of problems actually are.

*Since inequality of outcomes is seen, it cannot be possible that systemic racism does not exist. It's a circular concept. I guess the only other possibility is that there is only inherent racism in humans, which is surely true but impossible to solve other than by social training or some human genome project.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Not too often, but enough to warrant media reports even before Covid times.

Keep in mind the media love to turn any non-story into a big deal - the juicier the better; it's more lucrative. It's pretty much their business model.

A nonzero rate of defacing is pretty much inevitable. If you admit it's pretty damn rare then I'd say it's likely just statistical noise at this point. BTW white people are far from immune:




This guy was my provincial MP for four years (minister in the Couillard govt):

[SignalHillHiker]

The statue of Gaspar Corte-Real on Confederation Hill has been addressed. There’s a creepy trend of social media accounts with questionably local English pushing a narrative that Newfoundland’s heritage is under attack. It’s not working with Corte-Real, no one really gives a 🞵🞵🞵🞵, but they’re gaining some traction defending Winston Churchill.

[Marty_Mcfly]

^ You can pretty much trace back all far-right social media back to a few of the usual folks. Drover and NL Proud and that network, or Kenny Windsor and literally the 10+ groups he has made to push his message. Windsor is also behind all the Hasan Hai slander groups which come up (of which there is a new one this morning accusing Hai of the usual racist 🞵🞵🞵🞵).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

True impact = how you feel

So therefore your perceived or desired "true impact".

I'm not basing reality around some people in an internet discussion chat.

I don't know anyone who speaks about these issues in the ways I have heard here. Not everyone I know is "woke" or whatnot but they listen, they aren't obstinate brick walls, their first instinct isn't denial, and they are readily willing to acknowledge issues of race. So I'm not personally worried.

If that's a bubble, so be it. I don't plan on changing my environment anytime soon.

Why I continue to engage in this discussion is something I don't really understand. It has addictive components and my ego gets activated I guess.

I strongly suspect that your entourage sampling is heavily filtered.

Given the rising daily body count of people whose careers and lives are being destroyed due for justifiable, semi-justifiable and unjustifiable reasons, one can only assume that people are being extremely cautious about what they say and are likely holding back a bit on what they actually think.

I know that in my case, while my views on here aren't the slightest bit racist (in spite of what you and the other witch hunters think), I don't really say the same things I say on here "out there" in the real world.

It's a good time to be careful. Especially with the goal posts constantly moving.

[Acajack]

Jagmeet Singh is really making the racism issue his bread and butter.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jagmeet-singh-rideau-hall-incident-1.5641764

[Acajack]

I have mentioned before that "profiling" of sorts and random checks are still permitted and conducted by Montreal police, contrary to what goes on in Toronto and Ottawa.

Yesterday it was announced that these practices are going to be scaled back or at least more tightly controlled and regulated.

https://www.mtlblog.com/news/canada/qc/m...l-profiling-has-not-banned-street-checks

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by lio45

(On that topic, I've always wondered if the British press labeled intolerant Northern Irish "racist" when covering Irish-on-Irish hate incidents over there, or if they instead used a more apt word. Maybe someone knows?)

It was a sectarian conflict and usually described as such. “Racist” is mainly a U.S. term; the British equivalent is (or was at that time) “racialist” and, whichever one you prefer, these words refer to a belief in the inherent superiority of a genetically related group of people — which is not what was driving the Troubles in Ireland.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

It was a sectarian conflict and usually described as such. “Racist” is mainly a U.S. term; the British equivalent is (or was at that time) “racialist” and, whichever one you prefer, these words refer to a belief in the inherent superiority of a genetically related group of people — which is not what was driving the Troubles in Ireland.

This is a good summary, though there most definitely was (is?) a superiority angle to both sides' positions. (There always is, isn't there?)

I've spoken with Northern Irish Protestants who've talked about Catholics in a sneering way with reference to how they're backward with their idolatry and stuff...

They were otherwise very affable people! Though while they knew where I was from, I guess they didn't know that in terms of religion, being a French-speaking Canadian is about the same as being an Italian. Or perhaps they did not care.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Not too often, but enough to warrant media reports even before Covid times. A couple of years ago when "Crazy Rich Asians" - an American movie - came out, posters of them at bus stops were defaced, unsurprisingly.

It's on Netflix now, I had no interest but my wife was watching. Not a bad movie as far as rom-coms go.

Carry on...

[someone123]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

The statue of Gaspar Corte-Real on Confederation Hill has been addressed. There’s a creepy trend of social media accounts with questionably local English pushing a narrative that Newfoundland’s heritage is under attack. It’s not working with Corte-Real, no one really gives a 🞵🞵🞵🞵, but they’re gaining some traction defending Winston Churchill.

The Churchill statues are interesting and it would be a shame to lose them. In Canada, some of the more famous statues were created by Oscar Nemon after WWII. He fled Croatia for Britain during the Holocaust and most of his family was killed.

There is no question that Churchill is a complicated character yet also an important historical figure, and that many of the Churchill statues are significant postwar works of art. They have a distinct style from most statues created in the 1930's and earlier.