The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[someone123]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

I'm not sure how much useful information about race and racism we can extract from data about language on a country-wide basis: Each linguistic community is racially diverse in its own right, which is difficult to square with the idea that one or both represents a cohesive racial identity. There may be some degree of systemic oppression of one linguistic community by another—there certainly was historically—but that's not necessarily racism. Identity is more complicated and multidimensional than that.

I think the bigger point is that people often pick and choose which differences in outcomes they feel are or aren't significant, without much justification in most cases. It mostly seems to depend on sympathies. It is not surprising when so many arguments depend on feelings and interpretation.

This is most obvious when it comes to sexism and women vs. men. We even see it with covid; higher death rates for males are more likely to be treated as the consequence of their choices while women tend to be treated as victims. When it comes to killings by police the victims are typically over 90% male yet you won't hear much about anti-male bias in policing.

The amount of importance given to history also seems very fluid. There are many Francophones alive today who experienced significant discrimination in the 1950's, 60's, and 70's, but awareness of this is low. In polite English Canadian society, Francophones are far and away the ethnocultural out-group that is most likely to be the target of derision.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Well, back home, normal non-protesting homeless people don't have political slogans and flags on their tents, they just try to live. (They would also most certainly NOT refuse housing! That's a dead giveaway these people have at least some other aims and revendications.)
.

My observation (and I doubt Vancouver really is that different) is that there are two types of people living in tents.

Those who have another (reasonably comfy) place to live if they really wanted to.

and

Those who literally have no other place to go, except perhaps a homeless shelter.

Protesting with signs and such seems way more common among the former than the latter.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

I'm not sure how much useful information about race and racism we can extract from data about language on a country-wide basis: Each linguistic community is racially diverse in its own right, which is difficult to square with the idea that one or both represents a cohesive racial identity. There may be some degree of systemic oppression of one linguistic community by another—there certainly was historically—but that's not necessarily racism. Identity is more complicated and multidimensional than that.

Just using the contemporary definition of racism, which is prejudice or discrimination against an identifiable group. I am fully aware that most francophone and anglophone Canadians could be considered to be of the same race, ie (northern) European.

Though African-Americans, POC, BIPOC, etc. are all diverse groups as well.

As long as we're discussing treating people differently as a group due to unchangeable characteristics unrelated to the integrity of their character as individuals (thank you MLK), then it fits in to this discussion.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Outcomes cannot be separated from the system though. Higher rates of crime are connected to perceptions of being trapped or feeling hopeless which are not rooted in inherently being black but in being maltreated for 100s of years as a group. There are psychological and therefore social consequences to intergenerational trauma.

Better lives across the board for members of that community will likely require a mix of higher level institutional change and support, *and* community/family-driven changes to attitude and behaviour.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

In polite English Canadian society, Francophones are far and away the ethnocultural out-group that is most likely to be the target of derision.

I think that this would be highly regional. I've only really experienced that in Alberta.

I don't think I've ever heard this as a topic of conversation in the Lower Mainland, let alone derision, but that's just my anecdotal bubble.

Growing up in Thunder Bay, nothing was comparable to the racism against Indigenous people. There was anti-bilingual, anti-Quebec sentiment but it was a grievance centred around perceived unfairness rather than mocking derision though.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Growing up in Thunder Bay, nothing was comparable to the racism against Indigenous people. There was anti-bilingual, anti-Quebec sentiment but it was a grievance centred around perceived unfairness rather than mocking derision though.

I propose a thought experiment. Imagine you are a white heterosexual male in a diverse group of university-educated Canadian friends. You must pick one group to make fun of while minimizing the blowback you receive. You must pick from these groups: black people, trans people, indigenous people, women, gay people, Muslims, Francophones.

Even worse let's imagine you have to Tweet an insult. There's no contest.

Another experiment I propose is to go to any English-language media site of your choosing and look at stories about Quebec, then compare how many of them sympathetically mention the preservation of Quebec culture to how many rant about language laws or the hijab thing. Honestly just try finding any positive or sympathetic coverage of Quebec.

My point with this isn't that Francophones in Canada in 2020 are hard done by, it's that when we are reduced to talking about feelings or subjective experience we are a slave to our biases, and we have a whole bunch of them in Canada. This tends to pair up poorly with flimsy arguments about differences in outcomes:

Different outcome + sympathy => problem
Different outcome - sympathy => who cares

We need to get away from this kind of thinking if we want to achieve universal fairness.

Historical grievances, particularly as judged by subjective emotional impact today, are a similar dead end. Actually they're worse than a dead end in that they encourage the creation of the worst possible narratives and a victim mentality. Often the victim mentality is not even a good thing for the victim. If we did universally privilege subjective historic grievances in Canada, Francophones would get a blank cheque as a historically oppressed minority group (with Acadians being an even-more-oppressed subgroup).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

I think that this would be highly regional. I've only really experienced that in Alberta.

I don't think I've ever heard this as a topic of conversation in the Lower Mainland, let alone derision, but that's just my anecdotal bubble.

I've been the victim of several counts of Anti-Québécois Racism in the last few months, so your anecdotal bubble doesn't look like mine at all. (And I can easily play your own card from earlier - you can't possibly know how things are for us since you have never experienced what it is to be Québécois in Vancouver; I reject your reality and substitute my own.)

(Nothing that would make me want to adopt a life of crime or off myself, just some teasing. Which is what I believe your circles define as genuine racism these days.)

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by lio45

I've been the victim of several counts of Anti-Québécois Racism in the last few months, so your anecdotal bubble doesn't look like mine at all. (And I can easily play your own card from earlier - you can't possibly know how things are for us since you have never experienced what it is to be Québécois in Vancouver; I reject your reality and substitute my own.)

(Nothing that would make me want to adopt a life of crime or off myself, just some teasing. Which is what I believe your circles define as genuine racism these days.)

Quebeckophobia

[Metro-One]

Being of Italian heritage it is still okay for people to openly do mocking accents and even celebrate caricatures of said heritage *cough* Mario.

And oh boy has pizza and pasta been culturally appropriated!

Honestly though none of that bothers me (nor should it), just fun to show how unequally favored different ethnic groups are for “victimhood.”

60 years ago my family was among great lowest on the racial hierarchy in Vancouver, today I am told about how much privilege we have had... Italians, on the wrong side for sympathy at all times.

It is interesting how Jews, Italians, Irish, Polish, Eastern Europeans, etc... have all been kind of thrown under the bus in the current racial panic in order to better solidify the current idea of original sin, I mean white privilege, and the idea that white people cant experience racism today because only those who experience systematic racism can (and those people are all non white).

That new definition of racism is dangerous because it gives people a get out of jail free card for doing hateful and racist things if they are non white, mix that with the current fetish for victim culture and that could become quite the explosive cocktail.

None of this is too say that there isn’t racial privilege, but it is one of many many many privileges that affect our lives, and constantly having race under the microscope of identity politics is only leading to further divide and resentment.

You will never win over a poor working white person to your side by continually yelling at them about how much privilege they have and how they can’t experience racism.

Again, my brother was beaten so hard by a group of South Asian men in a random attack he was in the hospital, so don’t dare tell me he wasn’t a victim of racism there.

This new modern left needs a kick in the 🞵🞵🞵, and soon.

Part of me still hopes it will eat itself before it becomes too dangerous, perfect example of that is JK Rowlin, who went from being one of the biggest heroes celebrated by the alphabet community, now to a pariah publicly detested by the same people simply because she believes that biological 🞵🞵🞵 is still an important factory in humanity...

This is where I feel woke left has essentially become a cult / religion, it has strict dogma that you cannot deviate from even slightly, they publicly put you on the spot and you must fall in line (if not hell is waiting for you), and they have original sin (white privilege and male privilege) that is constantly preached.

Odd times.

Just sum up, there is racism and it does need to be addressed. Everyone deserves equal opportunity in life, but I do not agree with the modern approach, it is very negative in focus and exclusive, compared to movements prior that were more positive in focus and inclusive.

Funny thing, the political approach of old Star Trek and new Star Trek (Picard) encapsulate the above perfectly. Old Star Trek was very inclusive and positive, humanity had essentially found world peace and would calmly talk through moral issues, new Star Trek is mean and dirty, humanity 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 and everything is revenge!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Quebeckophobia

I need to know where to apply for my Reparations Check

[Architype]

Originally Posted by lio45

I need to know where to apply for my Reparations Check

But you are so lacking in intersectionality.
And it's "cheque", mate.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Growing up in Thunder Bay, nothing was comparable to the racism against Indigenous people.

They're the only Officially Separate group, in terms of status. So... not that surprising, actually.

Imagine a fictional land of green, blue, orange and purple people. The green, orange and blue ones pay taxes, the purple ones get free money for being purple. This state of affairs is enshrined in their Constitution or something.

Without knowing anything else about that fictional place, I can already forecast that green, orange and blue people will dislike / think less of purple people.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Architype

But you are so lacking in intersectionality.

I can say I identify as a woman, as long as you're not asking me to do that under oath. Would that help...?

Point taken regarding the word - if it's free money, I'll take it regardless of how the government who's sending it to me is spelling the name of the financial instrument.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by lio45

I've been the victim of several counts of Anti-Québécois Racism in the last few months, so your anecdotal bubble doesn't look like mine at all. (And I can easily play your own card from earlier - you can't possibly know how things are for us since you have never experienced what it is to be Québécois in Vancouver; I reject your reality and substitute my own.)

(Nothing that would make me want to adopt a life of crime or off myself, just some teasing. Which is what I believe your circles define as genuine racism these days.)

Cool. I like how you proactively defend yourself from the response I was never going to write.

You don’t understand my circles, actually. Your general responses to my point of view clearly indicate that.

You’re saying you weren’t offended so it doesn’t sound like racism or prejudice to me. Your genuine, emotional response as the “target” is the primary barometer. And so now you can treat other groups the same way, right? Take their accounts for what they are without needing to overwrite them with your own? You’re capable of that?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Cool. I like how you proactively defend yourself from the response I was never going to write.

You don’t understand my circles, actually. Your general responses to my point of view clearly indicate that. You’re saying you weren’t offended so it doesn’t sound like racism or prejudice to me.

I'm way too rational to not immediately reject the bolded as nonsense. "Offensive" can't be in the brain of the beholder. It has to be a collective consensus.

Using your logic:

You call Black Person A the "N-Word". He's not offended, doesn't care, shrugs it off. You're not racist.

You call Black Person B the "N-Word"; exact same context as before. This one is offended. You're racist.

There's clearly an incompatibility there - in a particular society and era, either a given act is considered racist or else it's not.

("Schrödinger's Racism": you have to wait until the reaction of the "victim" is observed before you can know whether or not it's racism.)

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by lio45

Your general point, which I'd sum up as follows, was kinda making it, just less directly:

"If we observe consistently poorer outcomes from a group, the causes might be well self-imposed to a certain degree, maybe even an important one; we shouldn't automatically assume it's all the fault of 'The System', nor immediately conclude from that observation that the current 'System' needs a major overhaul".

Of course it is easier to blame "The System" and claim to be a victim, than to take onus for some part of one's life.

But being a victim is the primary go to tactic.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm way too rational to not immediately reject the bolded as nonsense. "Offensive" can't be in the brain of the beholder. It has to be a collective consensus.

Using your logic:

You call Black Person A the "N-Word". He's not offended, doesn't care, shrugs it off. You're not racist.

You call Black Person B the "N-Word"; exact same context as before. This one is offended. You're racist.

There's clearly an incompatibility there - in a particular society and era, either a given act is considered racist or else it's not.

("Schrödinger's Racism": you have to wait until the reaction of the "victim" is observed before you can know whether or not it's racism.)

Well go around using that word with all the black people you meet and let me know how that goes or how many aren’t offended.

The real world does a pretty good job of letting us know where the boundaries lie even when they aren’t universal, since nothing truly is.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

I think that this would be highly regional. I've only really experienced that in Alberta.

I don't think I've ever heard this as a topic of conversation in the Lower Mainland, let alone derision, but that's just my anecdotal bubble.

Growing up in Thunder Bay, nothing was comparable to the racism against Indigenous people. There was anti-bilingual, anti-Quebec sentiment but it was a grievance centred around perceived unfairness rather than mocking derision though.

I think overt racism often correlates with economic decline or poverty. I grew up in SW Ontario (the .com part, not the rust belt part), overt racism was pretty rare. “Jokes” or negative comments were most often directed at South Asians or Poles, and maybe anti-Muslim views after 9/11. I don’t think indigenous racism was ever a thing.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think overt racism often correlates with economic decline or poverty. I grew up in SW Ontario (the .com part, not the rust belt part), overt racism was pretty rare. “Jokes” or negative comments were most often directed at South Asians or Poles, and maybe anti-Muslim views after 9/11. I don’t think indigenous racism was ever a thing.

That "white fragility" YouTube discussion video had a bunch of interesting comments in it. One of the commentators said something to the effect that he felt pity for racists because their views are so far outside the mainstream of polite American society now that they must not hold much power or have good economic prospects.

One problem in American society is that there is almost no sympathy in wealthy urban areas for those living in dying rural areas, the kind of places where lots of people are unemployed, addicted to meth, and committing suicide at high and rising rates. These areas are behind the times and racist beliefs are a part of that or perhaps even a symptom of the decline itself.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think overt racism often correlates with economic decline or poverty. I grew up in SW Ontario (the .com part, not the rust belt part), overt racism was pretty rare. “Jokes” or negative comments were most often directed at South Asians or Poles, and maybe anti-Muslim views after 9/11. I don’t think indigenous racism was ever a thing.

This. Growing up in Toronto, I literally never once heard a racist stereotype about Quebecers or even aboriginals once. Racism is entirely regional.

Joined the military, showed up in Quebec and heard more ethnic slurs on Basic Training (against every ethnicity) that Summer than I had my entire teen years combined. Also got refused service in St. Jean for my poor French. Never understood why Quebecers think everyone has it out for them. Most of Canada doesn't really think about them.

If there's anybody truly hard done by in Canada, it's First Nations. I've never truly been shocked by racism in Canada, but by some of stereotypes related to me about aboriginals out West.