VIA Rail network developments

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

By the way, I was studying M.T.O.'s proposal of Highway 17 Matawa Bypass the other day. What I noticed was that the North-Bay-bound lanes would utilize the ROW of Ottawa Valley Rail. That said, once the bypass is built, the ship really will have sailed for rail transportation in Upper Ottawa Valley.

I'm just looking forward to twinning 17 to Renfrew first. I doubt there will ever again be train tracks up the Valley beyond what still exists to Arnprior.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

I doubt there will ever again be train tracks up the Valley beyond what still exists to Arnprior.

I agree. The track isn't coming back. My point was more that if the ROWs were publicly owned, one of the 3 ROWs may have been preserved.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I agree. The track isn't coming back. My point was more that if the ROWs were publicly owned, one of the 3 ROWs may have been preserved.

The best ROW was the one that went through the northern part of Algonquin Park (CN) but park officials were intent in getting rid of it. I think it was removed in 1996.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The best ROW was the one that went through the northern part of Algonquin Park (CN) but park officials were intent in getting rid of it. I think it was removed in 1996.

Why was that (the CN route via Brent) the best alignment when it virtually avoided any population between Pembroke and Thunder Bay, while the CP route (i.e. the one which served communities like Petawawa, Chalk River, Deep River and Mattawa and therefore saw passenger service past 1978 - when it was abandoned on your prefered CN line - and until 1990)?

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I agree. The track isn't coming back. My point was more that if the ROWs were publicly owned, one of the 3 ROWs may have been preserved.

I think the best we could ever hope for someday is a commuter train from Arnprior and even that’s a stretch.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The best ROW was the one that went through the northern part of Algonquin Park (CN) but park officials were intent in getting rid of it. I think it was removed in 1996.

I wouldn't underestimate how the issues resulting from a rail line bisecting a Provincial (or National) park.

The other problem with the old Canadian Northern ROW is that it crosses the Ottawa river twice.

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Why was that (the CN route via Brent) the best alignment when it virtually avoided any population between Pembroke and Thunder Bay, while the CP route (i.e. the one which served communities like Petawawa, Chalk River, Deep River and Mattawa and therefore saw passenger service past 1978 - when it was abandoned on your prefered CN line - and until 1990)?

You are looking at it from a passenger perspective. Passenger service along this route will unlikely ever be viable. From a freight perspective, not having mile long freight trains (potentially caring dangerous goods) rumble through town, isolating parts of town from emergency services, is a good thing (just look at the issues Bellville is having with CP's Bellville Sub).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Why was that (the CN route via Brent) the best alignment when it virtually avoided any population between Pembroke and Thunder Bay, while the CP route (i.e. the one which served communities like Petawawa, Chalk River, Deep River and Mattawa and therefore saw passenger service past 1978 - when it was abandoned on your prefered CN line - and until 1990)?

It was the most direct route to the Sudbury area. I was looking at it from a freight perspective as an alternative connection to Northern Ontario and the west and with the understanding that at the time of the elimination of all rail service in the Ottawa Valley, that there was no freight customers left.

[Dengler Avenue]

Okay I know we’re digressing quite a bit, but the area around where Ottawa Valley Rail used to go between Deux Rivières and Bissett Creek, what’s the typology there like? Is it like swamps/muskegs sandwiched between mountains?

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It was the most direct route to the Sudbury area. I was looking at it from a freight perspective as an alternative connection to Northern Ontario and the west and with the understanding that at the time of the elimination of all rail service in the Ottawa Valley, that there was no freight customers left.

The CN route was not any more direct than the CP route, The difference is in the the grades and the curvatures. The CP route has steeper grades than CN particularly the Deux Rivieres section compared to Brent n the CN line.

Even with the loss of business in the Ottawa valley there was enough bridge traffic to keep one line open for joint use by both CN and CP. This would have allowed an alternative route during blockades and less interference from CN freights for Via trains on the lakeshore route.

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Would there even be close to enough ridership to support an Ottawa Valley line sans some very heavy subsidies?

We subsidize private automobile and truck transportation, so I don't see why we shouldn't also subsidize rail transporation, especially considering it's much better for the planet.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

We subsidize private automobile and truck transportation, so I don't see why we shouldn't also subsidize rail transporation, especially considering it's much better for the planet.

Sure. But if the ridership can only fill a coach bus every hour, why would you build a rail line?

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Sure. But if the ridership can only fill a coach bus every hour, why would you build a rail line?

We're not talking about building a rail line, merely not destroying it

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

We're not talking about building a rail line, merely not destroying it

Agreed, but in order to justify preserving a ROW by continuously paying for its upkeep only makes sense if there is any traffic which requires this ROW. And if both CN and CP conclude that accepting a 250 km detour over the almost 5000 km distance between Montreal and Vancouver is cheaper than keeping tracks in the Ottawa valley active, then this is a rational business decision.

Maybe if week-long blockades become a yearly occurrence, this calculation might change, but I’d assume that It would be much cheaper for them to use the HFR route via Hevelock (by night, presumably) and to pay VIA (or whoever is going to own these tracks) for the excessive tear and wear caused by operating freight trains over tracks where the superelevation has not been optimized for slower freight traffic than to rebuild a formerly existent ROW which is progressively severed by urban developments or highway expansions...

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

We're not talking about building a rail line, merely not destroying it

It’s a bit late for that. All three lines through the western Ottawa Valley have been torn up.

[lrt's friend]

Not specifically about VIA Rail, but it is interesting that Canadian Pacific has re-acquired the railway through Maine that they had disposed of in 1994. The latter disposal was the reason why passenger service was discontinued on that route to Saint John. This gives Canadian Pacific Atlantic port access at both Saint John and Searsport Maine.

https://www.cpr.ca/en/media/cp-compl...quebec-railway

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Not specifically about VIA Rail, but it is interesting that Canadian Pacific has re-acquired the railway through Maine that they had disposed of in 1994. The latter disposal was the reason why passenger service was discontinued on that route to Saint John. This gives Canadian Pacific Atlantic port access at both Saint John and Searsport Maine.

https://www.cpr.ca/en/media/cp-compl...quebec-railway

Thanks. I posted a reply in the National VIA Rail thread as I thought it more appropriate there (though still not about VIA Rail).

[rocketphish]

Via Rail restores more trains out of Ottawa
Crown corporation says it's seen increase in demand for train travel

CBC News
Posted: Aug 20, 2020 6:11 PM ET | Last Updated: August 20

Via Rail is planning the largest expansion of services since the start of COVID-19 pandemic and will offer more services out of Ottawa starting next month, to cities like Toronto and Montreal.

The Crown corporation announced Thursday it is increasing the number of trains running on the Quebec City-Montreal-Ottawa route, from four to seven trains, and adding two more trains on the Toronto-Kingston-Ottawa route, increasing the total number of trains to six.

The additional service will start running Sept. 1.

The increase restores Via's frequency of service to nearly half of what it offered before the pandemic, a statement from Via Rail said.

More travellers have been booking trains since provinces began loosening movement restrictions, the statement added.

"We are very pleased to announce today an important milestone in our efforts to resume our services," said Cynthia Garneau, Via's president and CEO, in the statement.

"This initiative prioritizes the health and safety of our employees and passengers, balancing the possible service offerings and the recommendations issued by public health authorities in the context of the ongoing situation."

New trains were also added to the Toronto-Kingston-Montreal and Toronto-London-Windsor routes.

The Ocean, which runs between Montreal and Halifax, and The Canadian, which runs between Toronto and Vancouver, are slated to return Nov. 1.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...emic-1.5694382

[roger1818]

Not directly related to VIA Rail, but the other day I drove down to Merrickville and noticed that as I crossed CPR's Winchester Sub that they have torn up one set of tracks to bring it down to single track. The crossing still has both sets of track (presumably so that they didn't have to repave the road) but it was torn up on either side of the road. Google Satellite view still shows double track, so it must have been done reasonably recently (EDIT: Colin Churcher Railway Pages says it was torn up this past summer (2020)).

This isn't surprising as they only have single track east of Smiths Falls (after having torn up the Brockville Sub north of Smiths Falls.

This is an indication of how little CPR uses the Winchester Sub, making it easier for VIA to acquire it east of Saint-Polycarpe as a little shortcut to Montreal (VIA could rebuild the northern track (so as to not have to cross the CPR mainline) to Canadian Pacific Rail Bridge. Alternatively, they could buy the ROW outright and have CPR either use it at night or divert to CN's Kingston Sub via the Alexandria Sub.

EDIT2: Colin Churcher Railway Pages says they only tore them up to Soulanges, which Saint-Polycarpe is in. One guess is they kept the double track east of Saint-Polycarpe because they knew VIA was interested in using it. With only single track west of Saint-Polycarpe, VIA need not worry about congestion from CPR (they would practically have the northern track to themselves, though both could potentially be used for passing).

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Not directly related to VIA Rail, but the other day I drove down to Merrickville and noticed that as I crossed CPR's Winchester Sub that they have torn up one set of tracks to bring it down to single track. The crossing still has both sets of track (presumably so that they didn't have to repave the road) but it was torn up on either side of the road. Google Satellite view still shows double track, so it must have been done reasonably recently (EDIT: Colin Churcher Railway Pages says it was torn up this past summer (2020)).

This isn't surprising as they only have single track east of Smiths Falls (after having torn up the Brockville Sub north of Smiths Falls.

This is an indication of how little CPR uses the Winchester Sub, making it easier for VIA to acquire it east of Saint-Polycarpe as a little shortcut to Montreal (VIA could rebuild the northern track (so as to not have to cross the CPR mainline) to Canadian Pacific Rail Bridge. Alternatively, they could buy the ROW outright and have CPR either use it at night or divert to CN's Kingston Sub via the Alexandria Sub.

EDIT2: Colin Churcher Railway Pages says they only tore them up to Soulanges, which Saint-Polycarpe is in. One guess is they kept the double track east of Saint-Polycarpe because they knew VIA was interested in using it. With only single track west of Saint-Polycarpe, VIA need not worry about congestion from CPR (they would practically have the northern track to themselves, though both could potentially be used for passing).

What was their reasoning for tearing up tracks? Does it cost them more money to keep around tracks they aren't using? Or do they sell the steel for scrap?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

What was their reasoning for tearing up tracks? Does it cost them more money to keep around tracks they aren't using? Or do they sell the steel for scrap?

Taking a quick look on streetview, it looks like it was all CWR which is pretty valuable and can be reused elsewhere on their network. Pretty much the same reason that the Beachburg subdivision was torn up.

If the track weren't CWR, or it was in really bad shape, it probably would have just been left there.