The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[kwoldtimer]

More and more: Four of Canada’s big 5 banks have joined the advertising boycott of Facebook; the Coast Guard will be renaming the icebreaker Edward Cornwallis; the mayor of Richmond, Virginia (capital ofthe Confederacy) has invoked emergency powers to remove Confederate statues from the historic district.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think like many radical movements it risks alienating the mainstream middle class and fizzling out, the way all the genocide talk killed progress on MMW or McCarthyism killed the anti-communist movement. I think most people agree that certain elements of the police are out of control and want action taken, but they want a cop to show up at their door when they call 911. The further risk is that the echo chamber of activists and people that did _____ Studies in university listen to nobody but each other, probably further alienating them from mainstream society.

Quoted for truth.

Originally Posted by esquire

You're right. As kool m. put it recently, any reasonable person will agree with the proposition that Black Lives Matter. And in the Canadian context, you could also add Indigenous Lives Matter. I'd imagine that people would support efforts to make the justice system fairer, to promote equal opportunities for those in historically disadvantaged communities, etc.

The problem is that the initial successes stirred up a frenzy of fringe ideas like the whole "Defund the Police" thing. I mean, I'm sure people would support carving off some police funding to provide increased mental health resources, help for those with addictions, etc. But the activists calling for abolition of police are living in an undergraduate's dream world. No actual grown up would take that seriously. And as the ideas coming from the echo chamber get more extreme, dumber and more alienating to broad swaths of the population, the more the movement consigns itself to irrelevance.

Quoted again for truth.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I think you've nailed it. The self-abasement really does seem like a classic case of psychological projection.

Some woke views of racism as a kind of ethereal and elusive evil force are very Christian, as are the arguments employed in support of it.

Original sin -> Whiteness
Duality of good and evil or heaven/hell or believer/non-believer -> Anti-racist vs. racist
Untestable belief in God -> Untestable belief in systemic racism
God is incomprehensible and unknowable -> Experiences of other identity groups are incomprehensible and unknowable
You don't believe what I do because you've failed to truly accept God into your heart -> White fragility (Let's forget evidence and focus on motives)

Note that I don't mean all beliefs about racism are like religion. Just the ones that are based on non-falsifiable arguments. And I'm not denying the existence of racism itself. Only the validity of asserting it exists through faith-based arguments rather than empirically-based arguments and logic.

I wonder how much of this has developed because we don't have much religion anymore. These beliefs may allow the same feelings of in-group belonging as Christian theology. And of course these Christian concepts are part of Western culture so they are familiar and easy to apply in new areas.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

Some woke views of racism as a kind of ethereal and elusive evil force are very Christian, as are the arguments employed in support of it.

Original sin -> Whiteness
Duality of good and evil or heaven/hell or believer/non-believer -> Anti-racist vs. racist
Untestable belief in God -> Untestable belief in systemic racism
God is incomprehensible and unknowable -> Experiences of other identity groups are incomprehensible and unknowable
You don't believe what I do because you've failed to truly accept God into your heart -> White fragility (Let's forget evidence and focus on motives)

Note that I don't mean all beliefs about racism are like religion. Just the ones that are based on non-falsifiable arguments. And I'm not denying the existence of racism itself. Only the validity of asserting it exists through faith-based arguments rather than empirically-based arguments and logic.

I wonder how much of this has developed because we don't have much religion anymore. These beliefs may allow the same feelings of in-group belonging as Christian theology. And of course these Christian concepts are part of Western culture so they are familiar and easy to apply in new areas.

This is denial and rationalization on a whole other level. Bravo.

There is so much that is misinterpreted and missing from your understanding of these concepts, almost as if you haven’t taken the time to research and understand them, while also acting like you have enough wherewithal to completely dismiss them.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

This is denial and rationalization on a whole other level. Bravo.

There is so much that is misinterpreted and missing from your understanding of these concepts, almost as if you haven’t taken the time to research and understand them, while also acting like you have enough wherewithal to completely dismiss them.

Your post is denial and rationalization taken to an even higher level!

Just kidding! But my point is that your response is generic and could be completely symmetrical (anybody can accuse anybody else, without evidence, of being out to lunch). It therefore adds nothing aside from being a statement of your beliefs or opinion. Many of your posts in this thread could be lifted and reposted somewhere else about virtually any topic, but they'd be particularly at home as defenses of religion.

Example:

Non-believer - This Christianity stuff sounds kind of silly. I mean really, virgin birth? And a magical sky daddy? Why would I believe that stuff?

Believer's response- There is so much that is misinterpreted and missing from your understanding of these concepts, almost as if you haven’t taken the time to research and understand them, while also acting like you have enough wherewithal to completely dismiss them.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

Your post is denial and rationalization taken to an even higher level!

Just kidding! But my point is that your response is generic and could be completely symmetrical (anybody can accuse anybody else, without evidence, of being out to lunch). It therefore adds nothing aside from being a statement of your beliefs or opinion. Many of your posts in this thread could be lifted and reposted somewhere else about virtually any topic, but they'd be particularly at home as defenses of religion.

Example:

Non-believer - This Christianity stuff sounds kind of silly. I mean really, virgin birth? And a magical sky daddy? Why would I believe that stuff?

Believer's response- There is so much that is misinterpreted and missing from your understanding of these concepts, almost as if you haven’t taken the time to research and understand them, while also acting like you have enough wherewithal to completely dismiss them.

Your comparison to religion could be made of any concept one didn’t understand and therefore perceived to be based purely on faith.

How have you studied or researched the concepts of anti-racism, white fragility, systemic racism, etc.? What books have you read? What is the depth of your understanding? Because it seems very shallow.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

More and more: Four of Canada’s big 5 banks have joined the advertising boycott of Facebook; the Coast Guard will be renaming the icebreaker Edward Cornwallis; the mayor of Richmond, Virginia (capital ofthe Confederacy) has invoked emergency powers to remove Confederate statues from the historic district.

Are those advertising boycotts permanent? I've heard some companies are doing it just for July.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

You sound hysterical.

Leftists:

We WaNt To CeNtEr PoC vOiCeS aNd LeArN fRoM tHeM.

*PoC expresses a view they don't agree with*

Leftists:

YoU sOuNd HyStErIcAl


At least that's a step up from the usual ad hominem like Uncle Tom, race traitor, etc. that the left abuses minorities with when minorities aren't helping them win.

I feel like you're the one who sounds a bit crazy with your White supremacy masquerading as social justice.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by someone123

Some woke views of racism as a kind of ethereal and elusive evil force are very Christian, as are the arguments employed in support of it.

Original sin -> Whiteness
Duality of good and evil or heaven/hell or believer/non-believer -> Anti-racist vs. racist
Untestable belief in God -> Untestable belief in systemic racism
God is incomprehensible and unknowable -> Experiences of other identity groups are incomprehensible and unknowable
You don't believe what I do because you've failed to truly accept God into your heart -> White fragility (Let's forget evidence and focus on motives)

Note that I don't mean all beliefs about racism are like religion. Just the ones that are based on non-falsifiable arguments. And I'm not denying the existence of racism itself. Only the validity of asserting it exists through faith-based arguments rather than empirically-based arguments and logic.

I wonder how much of this has developed because we don't have much religion anymore. These beliefs may allow the same feelings of in-group belonging as Christian theology. And of course these Christian concepts are part of Western culture so they are familiar and easy to apply in new areas.

Unless they go against the orthodoxy! Suddenly then woke White people are able to comprehend and rebut other identities' experiences. And then they are to be subject to the same routine of abuse, humiliation, cancellation, loss of employment, the works.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Leftists:

We WaNt To CeNtEr PoC vOiCeS aNd LeArN fRoM tHeM.

*PoC expresses a view they don't agree with*

Leftists:

YoU sOuNd HyStErIcAl


At least that's a step up from the usual ad hominem like Uncle Tom, race traitor, etc. that the left abuses minorities with when minorities aren't helping them win.

I feel like you're the one who sounds a bit crazy with your White supremacy masquerading as social justice.

Your opinion doesn’t negate that of millions of others, especially Black and Indigenous voices whose experience you do not share if I understand correctly.

Are there even any Black or Indigenous voices present in our discussions of this topic? What does that then indicate about its breadth, nature, and validity? Is it truly a welcoming place for their points of view?

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Unless they go against the orthodoxy! Suddenly then woke White people are able to comprehend and rebut other identities' experiences. And then they are to be subject to the same routine of abuse, humiliation, cancellation, loss of employment, the works.

You are afraid of the consequences of certain behaviours apparently.

Owning up to mistakes is part of the process. Mistakes are natural because we grew up amidst racism. The severity of the issue will determine a consequence but usually an honest apology and a commitment to do better, with proof thereof in the aftermath will bring things to a resolution. It is not that different from any other mistake we all make in life.

Of course we have high profile images of people being “canceled” but that is not usually how things play out in non-public lives.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Your opinion doesn’t negate that of millions of others, especially Black and Indigenous voices whose experience you do not share if I understand correctly.

Yes but I'm pointing out a double standard on the left where if a member of a minority group you pity the most says something affirming your view then you treat it as the gospel -- something that cannot even be analyzed using logic, reason, facts, data, etc., because it comes from a member of that group and there is no way to penetrate into their subjective experience as someone who doesn't belong to that group.

On the other hand, if a member of a minority group you pity says something that goes against your narrative, it's dismissed nastily by casting aspersions (by accusing the poor downtrodden vulnerable minority of being hysterical (i.e., not rational) [which, btw, is an age old stereotype used by White supremacists to shut down PoC]) or even worse with outright hostility and racism (using terms like Uncle Tom).

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by someone123

I wonder how much of this has developed because we don't have much religion anymore. These beliefs may allow the same feelings of in-group belonging as Christian theology. And of course these Christian concepts are part of Western culture so they are familiar and easy to apply in new areas.

That's part of what Douglas Murray was getting at in that snippet I posted upthread:

Originally Posted by rousseau

I think SWJ ideology is toxic and dangerous, but Douglas Murray takes a more sympathetic view in this clip.

• Video Link

It appears that the only means of redemption is to utterly abase oneself to the SJW race doctrine, the eternal aspect of it being, of course, white European sin.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

How have you studied or researched the concepts of anti-racism, white fragility, systemic racism, etc.? What books have you read? What is the depth of your understanding? Because it seems very shallow.

Matt Taibbi's take on "white fragility." As per usual, he's spot on:

DiAngelo isn’t the first person to make a buck pushing tricked-up pseudo-intellectual horseshit as corporate wisdom, but she might be the first to do it selling Hitlerian race theory. White Fragility has a simple message: there is no such thing as a universal human experience, and we are defined not by our individual personalities or moral choices, but only by our racial category.

If your category is “white,” bad news: you have no identity apart from your participation in white supremacy (“Anti-blackness is foundational to our very identities… Whiteness has always been predicated on blackness”), which naturally means “a positive white identity is an impossible goal.”

DiAngelo instructs us there is nothing to be done here, except “strive to be less white.” To deny this theory, or to have the effrontery to sneak away from the tedium of DiAngelo’s lecturing – what she describes as “leaving the stress-inducing situation” – is to affirm her conception of white supremacy. This intellectual equivalent of the “ordeal by water” (if you float, you’re a witch) is orthodoxy across much of academia.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility

So yeah, I think I'll pass on helping the author buy that second beach house.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Yes but I'm pointing out a double standard on the left where if a member of a minority group you pity the most says something affirming your view then you treat it as the gospel -- something that cannot even be analyzed using logic, reason, facts, data, etc., because it comes from a member of that group and there is no way to penetrate into their subjective experience as someone who doesn't belong to that group.

On the other hand, if a member of a minority group you pity says something that goes against your narrative, it's dismissed nastily by casting aspersions (by accusing the poor downtrodden vulnerable minority of being hysterical (i.e., not rational) [which, btw, is an age old stereotype used by White supremacists to shut down PoC]) or even worse with outright hostility and racism (using terms like Uncle Tom).

Hysteria is a human condition. I have usually heard it in a perjorative sense as applied to women, a group I am assuming you do not belong to, but correct me if I’m wrong.

The ideas I spout here come mainly from Black and Indigenous voices. The ideas implicate white liberals like myself as well as white conservatives, and all of humanity really, unless they have been raised in a racial vacuum. People of colour are not immune from holding racist ideas against themselves and others. The frame of those ideas in our society is white supremacy because that is what dominated the culture. White people benefited and benefit at the expense of others based on these ideas and not the other way around.

Everyone’s experience should be listened to but I reiterate that your voice does not cancel out the millions of people who disagree with you.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Matt Taibbi's take on "white fragility." As per usual, he's spot on:

So yeah, I think I'll pass on helping the author buy that second beach house.

Oh wow, you read an article by someone denouncing something and now you are an expert on that thing.

There are other books about similar concepts. I have listed authors to read in previous post. James Baldwin was a fucking genius and a good place to start. But I’m wasting my breath suggesting you actually inform yourself.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by rousseau

It appears that the only means of redemption is to utterly abase oneself to the SJW race doctrine, the eternal aspect of it being, of course, white European sin.

I sense shame around being in a vulnerable position. This is vulnerable work that requires empathy, listening, feeling, all very radically feminine and uncomfortable states of being for those who have spent their lives armouring up, verbally or otherwise. It may actually bring you to tears when you open up to the pain of others’ lived reality. That is a healthy, normal, and appropriate response.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

The ideas implicate white liberals like myself as well as white conservatives, and all of humanity really, unless they have been raised in a racial vacuum. People of colour are not immune from holding racist ideas against themselves and others. The frame of those ideas in our society is white supremacy because that is what dominated the culture. White people benefited and benefit at the expense of others based on these ideas and not the other way around.

You should spell this out more. It's just broad sweeping statements. Tie it to the present with some actual examples.

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Everyone’s experience should be listened to but I reiterate that your voice does not cancel out the millions of people who disagree with you.

Agreed. I wish the left would stop trying to silence voices that disagree with your narrative, including White people and dissenting BIPoC.

Also if you want to limit this to exclusively Black and Indigenous (and remove PoC from the pity list), I could be more sympathetic.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by someone123

Some woke views of racism as a kind of ethereal and elusive evil force are very Christian, as are the arguments employed in support of it.

Original sin -> Whiteness
Duality of good and evil or heaven/hell or believer/non-believer -> Anti-racist vs. racist
Untestable belief in God -> Untestable belief in systemic racism
God is incomprehensible and unknowable -> Experiences of other identity groups are incomprehensible and unknowable
You don't believe what I do because you've failed to truly accept God into your heart -> White fragility (Let's forget evidence and focus on motives)

Note that I don't mean all beliefs about racism are like religion. Just the ones that are based on non-falsifiable arguments. And I'm not denying the existence of racism itself. Only the validity of asserting it exists through faith-based arguments rather than empirically-based arguments and logic.

I wonder how much of this has developed because we don't have much religion anymore. These beliefs may allow the same feelings of in-group belonging as Christian theology. And of course these Christian concepts are part of Western culture so they are familiar and easy to apply in new areas.

Ironically you can also say that racism itself is rooted in the fundamental Christian religion, which by reference to race, and by interpretation, contains and fosters divisive ideas about race (i.e. the white Jesus).

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

I sense shame around being in a vulnerable position. This is vulnerable work that requires empathy, listening, feeling, all very radically feminine and uncomfortable states of being for those who have spent their lives armouring up, verbally or otherwise. It may actually bring you to tears when you open up to the pain of others’ lived reality. That is a healthy, normal, and appropriate response.

Sounds like a religious experience.