VIA Rail network developments

[roger1818]

Although the following video is of Amtrak, not VIA Rail, I thought it of interest anyway, since VIA will be replacing its GE P42DC GENESIS locomotives with Siemens Charger locomotives.

Admittedly there are some differences though. For one, VIA is purchasing the SCB-40 (which is what Brightline uses), not the SCB-44. They are very similar however.

VIA also uses a slightly different horn on its P42DCs, and the same could be true with he Chargers. I expect there to be some other customizations as well.

One thing I noticed from the video, the Chargers seem a lot quieter than the P42DCs, especially when idling.

• Video Link

[caveat.doctor]

Just took this survey from VIA about HFR between Ottawa and Toronto. Thought it was interesting how it was framing potential service in terms of price, frequency, transfers and even diesel vs electric in assessing how one's preferences might change. Note the huge variation in travel time estimates - some suggest Ottawa-Toronto as short as 2h45, others even longer than today.

















There were also a series of lists of various factors that might lead one to choose something else over the train, like price, frequency, length of travel as compared to now, whether the schedules "seem random", the train interiors were new, or (to me the most important) whether one had to transfer to another station to continue one's journey.



And then some of the usual consumer preference questions too.











I thought the question about the effect of the illegal protests was good - there might be some thought into making the network more resilient against disruptions like this. To me this would be key - while one can plan around "usual" delays or a more infrequent schedule, having to find another method of travel entirely because of unannounced blockades is huge. At the time I had a rail pass for my weekly Ottawa-Toronto trips, and this forced me to fly instead.



And can't avoid COVID, of course:

[DEWLine]

Interesting.

One thing I'd like to see come back: the ability to visit other parts of Ontario by passenger rail without being routed through Toronto first. But decisions were taken during the Harper years to make sure that can't happen easily, weren't they?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by DEWLine

Interesting.

One thing I'd like to see come back: the ability to visit other parts of Ontario by passenger rail without being routed through Toronto first. But decisions were taken during the Harper years to make sure that can't happen easily, weren't they?

When has that ever been possible?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by acottawa

When has that ever been possible?

Or do you mean the Supercontinental that was killed by Papa Trudeau in 1981?

[Allandale25]

Originally Posted by caveat.doctor

Just took this survey from VIA about HFR between Ottawa and Toronto. Thought it was interesting how it was framing potential service in terms of price, frequency, transfers and even diesel vs electric in assessing how one's preferences might change. Note the huge variation in travel time estimates - some suggest Ottawa-Toronto as short as 2h45, others even longer than today.

















There were also a series of lists of various factors that might lead one to choose something else over the train, like price, frequency, length of travel as compared to now, whether the schedules "seem random", the train interiors were new, or (to me the most important) whether one had to transfer to another station to continue one's journey.



And then some of the usual consumer preference questions too.











I thought the question about the effect of the illegal protests was good - there might be some thought into making the network more resilient against disruptions like this. To me this would be key - while one can plan around "usual" delays or a more infrequent schedule, having to find another method of travel entirely because of unannounced blockades is huge. At the time I had a rail pass for my weekly Ottawa-Toronto trips, and this forced me to fly instead.



And can't avoid COVID, of course:

Where did you receive the survey from?

[mxg308]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Or do you mean the Supercontinental that was killed by Papa Trudeau in 1981?

I believe he's referring to the CTA allowing CN to remove the Beachburg sub through the Ottawa Valley in 2013. During the protests in February, all I kept thinking was that CN and CP really put all their eggs in that one basket along the lakeshore and destroyed any backup route. Also, no direct rail link from Petawawa to Ottawa anymore seems like national security mistake but what do I know. $$$>all

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by mxg308

I believe he's referring to the CTA allowing CN to remove the Beachburg sub through the Ottawa Valley in 2013. During the protests in February, all I kept thinking was that CN and CP really put all their eggs in that one basket along the lakeshore and destroyed any backup route. Also, no direct rail link from Petawawa to Ottawa anymore seems like national security mistake but what do I know. $$$>all

Fair point, but there has not been passenger service on that line in decades, and the continental service was probably never useful for locals. Not sure when local service ran on that line, probably the 1950s.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Fair point, but there has not been passenger service on that line in decades, and the continental service was probably never useful for locals. Not sure when local service ran on that line, probably the 1950s.

My mother took local passenger service via CN to Pembroke back in the 1940s on occasion. She had to transfer at Golden Lake and that service was cancelled in 1956. Union Station in downtown Pembroke (opposite City Hall) was demolished around 1961, which gives an indication when local passenger service was done away with completely in the Ottawa valley.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by mxg308

I believe he's referring to the CTA allowing CN to remove the Beachburg sub through the Ottawa Valley in 2013. During the protests in February, all I kept thinking was that CN and CP really put all their eggs in that one basket along the lakeshore and destroyed any backup route. Also, no direct rail link from Petawawa to Ottawa anymore seems like national security mistake but what do I know. $$$>all

Why a national security risk? Petawawa has 17 Chinooks and a dozen or so Griffons to airlift into Ottawa practically anything they want to move in an emergency. Rail is useless for contingencies.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by DEWLine

Interesting.

One thing I'd like to see come back: the ability to visit other parts of Ontario by passenger rail without being routed through Toronto first. But decisions were taken during the Harper years to make sure that can't happen easily, weren't they?

There is no rail capacity on the Quebec-Windsor corridor to be enable that. Especially as GO grows in the GTA. Even through service to Pearson airport seems like a big ask.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by caveat.doctor

Just took this survey from VIA about HFR between Ottawa and Toronto. Thought it was interesting how it was framing potential service in terms of price, frequency, transfers and even diesel vs electric in assessing how one's preferences might change. Note the huge variation in travel time estimates - some suggest Ottawa-Toronto as short as 2h45, others even longer than today.

Thanks for sharing this. How'd they end up asking you? Was it through your VIA Preference profile?

2:45 from Ottawa to Toronto just seems like a stretch. Unless that train has no stops at all en route. But I would think there's limited value in a service which doesn't at least serve the suburban stops in Toronto and Ottawa.

[caveat.doctor]

Originally Posted by Allandale25

Where did you receive the survey from?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Thanks for sharing this. How'd they end up asking you? Was it through your VIA Preference profile?

Found the original email: looks like it was just based on having used VIA Rail before the pandemic.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

2:45 from Ottawa to Toronto just seems like a stretch. Unless that train has no stops at all en route. But I would think there's limited value in a service which doesn't at least serve the suburban stops in Toronto and Ottawa.

Perhaps, but at that speed (if true) it might make it worthwhile - even if you had a 30 minute commute on either end from/to a suburb you’d still be ahead of the status quo.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Fair point, but there has not been passenger service on that line in decades, and the continental service was probably never useful for locals. Not sure when local service ran on that line, probably the 1950s.

Seems like it could be useful now as a commuter line, if only the rails were still in place and in good enough condition. I have quite a few work colleagues moving to Ottawa working downtown but are looking pretty far afield due to housing costs (as well as preferences for housing type and size), for whom a commuter train would be useful. In fact only two of them are moving to the actual City of Ottawa, the market has been that tight.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by acottawa

When has that ever been possible?

As a kid I took the train with my mom between Ottawa & Sudbury to visit family in the late 1980s.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

As a kid I took the train with my mom between Ottawa & Sudbury to visit family in the late 1980s.

Interesting, they must have restored the supercontinental before cutting it again.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Interesting, they must have restored the supercontinental before cutting it again.

That would have been The Canadian. I’m the 80’s (before it was cut by Mulroney) (and the Supercontinental was renamed to the Canadian), the Canadian ran from Montreal to Vancouver via Ottawa.

[White Pine]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

My mother took local passenger service via CN to Pembroke back in the 1940s on occasion. She had to transfer at Golden Lake and that service was cancelled in 1956. Union Station in downtown Pembroke (opposite City Hall) was demolished around 1961, which gives an indication when local passenger service was done away with completely in the Ottawa valley.

Pembroke also had another (CP) station near Supple's Landing. It's also gone now.

[DEWLine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Why a national security risk? Petawawa has 17 Chinooks and a dozen or so Griffons to airlift into Ottawa practically anything they want to move in an emergency. Rail is useless for contingencies.

Aircraft can be grounded. Forcibly, at times.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by DEWLine

Aircraft can be grounded. Forcibly, at times.

Not a military expert, but hard to see a scenario where military helicopters can”t fly and roads are impassible but railways are operational.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by acottawa

fair point, but there has not been passenger service on that line in decades, and the continental service was probably never useful for locals. Not sure when local service ran on that line, probably the 1950s.

Passenger Rail service has been withdrawn with the Mulroney cuts on January 15, 1990. The (restored, but still operating over its traditional CP route) Canadian operated between Ottawa and Sudbury via Carleton Place - Pembroke - Chalk River - North Bay. The journey between Montreal and Sudbury (approx. 10 hours) was always during daylight for the 5 years for which transcontinental service was revived through Ottawa Valley (i.e. between June 1985 and January 1990):


Source: VIA timetable (effective 1989-04-30)

In terms of local services through the "Ottawa Valley" (i.e. passenger trains other than transcontinental services extending beyond Ottawa or Sudbury), CP operated two all-stop passenger trains per day between Chalk River and Ottawa (making no less than 22 stops on the 129.8 mile long route via Hull, Carleton Place, Renfew and Pembroke) until April 1957, when the service was replaced with a once-daily RDC ("Dayliner") service, which survived until October 1961:


Source: CP timetable (effective 1956-09-30)


Source: CP timetable (effective 1961-04-30)

As for CN, I could only find "Mixed trains" (i.e. combined passenger-freight trains), which operated once per week between Ottawa and Pembroke (until October 1960) and twice per week between Pembroke and Brent (until October 1964):

Source: CN timetable (effective 1960-04-24)

Originally Posted by acottawa

interesting, they must have restored the supercontinental before cutting it again.

Originally Posted by roger1818

that would have been the canadian. I’m the 80’s (before it was cut by mulroney) (and the supercontinental was renamed to the canadian), the canadian ran from montreal to vancouver via ottawa.

The Super-Continental (traveling on CN via Capreol-Hornepayne-Winnipeg-Saskatoon-Edmonton-Jasper-Kamloops) and the Canadian (travelling on CP via Sudbury-Thunder Bay-Winnipeg-Regina-Calgary-Banff-Kamloops) both operated through the Ottawa valley until October 1978, when the Sudbury-Montreal branch of the Canadian was discontinued together with the Capreol-Toronto branch of the Super-Continental. In June 1979, however, the two branches were swapped, with Vancouver-Montreal now being served by the Canadian and Vancouver-Toronto by the Super-Continental.

This arrangement lasted until the Pepin cuts of November 1981, when the Super-Continental was replaced through a string of local services (Capreol-Winnipeg, Winnipeg-Regina-Saskatoon, Saskatoon-Edmonton and the Skeena extended beyond Jasper to Edmonton) and cancelled altogether between Jasper and Vancouver, whereas the Canadian was rerouted via Toronto and attached to a Corridor train via Kingston to Montreal.

Until the Sudbury-Montreal branch and the Winnipeg-Edmonton-Vancouver segment of the Super-Continental were revived and added to the Canadian in June 1985, an RDC operated on the CP route from Ottawa to Sudbury, leaving Ottawa on Monday, Wednesday and Friday and returning from Sudbury the following day:


Source: VIA Rail timetable (effective 1984-10-28)

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

My mother took local passenger service via CN to Pembroke back in the 1940s on occasion. She had to transfer at Golden Lake and that service was cancelled in 1956.

Just stumbled across that service by accident, must have been this one:


Source: CN timetable (effective 1954-04-25)

Originally Posted by truenorth00

2:45 from ottawa to toronto just seems like a stretch. Unless that train has no stops at all en route. But i would think there's limited value in a service which doesn't at least serve the suburban stops in toronto and ottawa.

Just because a rail transport option is provided for 2:45, that doesn't prove that there is an intention to build such an option. It can also be used to prove that the additional demand for such a short travel time does not justify the incremental capital costs required for achieving it...