LRT Stage 3

[CityTech]

The Terry Fox extension is cheap; IIRC it was costed at something like $750M--although that was before the Phase 2 cost blew up, so maybe a little over $1B now.

Fallowfield is probably more complicated - there's a ROW from Baseline station down to Knoxdale, but from Knoxdale to Hunt Club they'd have to tunnel. Plus there's the railway crossing. But in fairness that VIA separation has to happen anyway, LRT or no LRT. Barrhaven already has a Transitway that provides decent enough service.

Honestly, I don't think extensions to Kanata or Barrhaven really have solid business cases.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by CityTech

The Terry Fox extension is cheap; IIRC it was costed at something like $750M--although that was before the Phase 2 cost blew up, so maybe a little over $1B now.

Fallowfield is probably more complicated - there's a ROW from Baseline station down to Knoxdale, but from Knoxdale to Hunt Club they'd have to tunnel. Plus there's the railway crossing. But in fairness that VIA separation has to happen anyway, LRT or no LRT. Barrhaven already has a Transitway that provides decent enough service.

Honestly, I don't think extensions to Kanata or Barrhaven really have solid business cases.

This is still up in the air. Elevated and trench options were presented.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

I'd always assumed the Trillium South extension WAS the Barfhaven connection?

It was in the 2006 plan, but the fact that it would take 10 minutes longer for most Barrhaven residents than the current transitway kind of vetoed that option.

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

I guess I'd always thought that suburban lines were just gigantic walmart-style parking lots with a train station in the middle. Didn't realize we had to snake our way through these low-density neighbourhoods so that Karen can walk to the station.

Once again, that was the 2006 plan, snake the line through a future, low density, housing development so that 10 people per hour could use a station.

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

If we can't afford Stage 3/4, we should try to expand the parking lots. I know Eagleson is full to the brim daily. It should be bigger.

I would rather see better bus connections to the train stations than building a bigger parking lot. Hard to do when you have a bus-bus-train transfer.

Originally Posted by CityTech

The Terry Fox extension is cheap; IIRC it was costed at something like $750M--although that was before the Phase 2 cost blew up, so maybe a little over $1B now.

I have always been an strong advocate of the Terry Fox extension and shelving plans beyond that.

Originally Posted by CityTech

Fallowfield is probably more complicated - there's a ROW from Baseline station down to Knoxdale, but from Knoxdale to Hunt Club they'd have to tunnel. Plus there's the railway crossing. But in fairness that VIA separation has to happen anyway, LRT or no LRT. Barrhaven already has a Transitway that provides decent enough service.

Knoxdale to Hunt Club is certainly the tough section. The VIA grade separations are an opportunity though. It will be cheaper to have the train cross the VIA tracks than the transitway and VIA's grade separation with Fallowfield could be built for quadruple track (2 for VIA and 2 for Stage 3).

Originally Posted by CityTech

Honestly, I don't think extensions to Kanata or Barrhaven really have solid business cases.

I disagree. Extending to Kanata and Barrhaven will save running buses through the greenbelt, and the reduced number of transfers will increase ridership.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

This is still up in the air. Elevated and trench options were presented.

When was this presented? Would it also be elevated over the Beachburg Subdivision as well? Given that it is already elevated, crossing above it would be very high. OTOH, given that Knoxdale is less than 350m away, going under then over would be like a roller coaster. I know it would be expensive, but I think tunnelling is the only good option.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It was in the 2006 plan, but the fact that it would take 10 minutes longer for most Barrhaven residents than the current transitway kind of vetoed that option.

That was always a ridiculous argument. The N-S LRT would have been slower to some destinations but faster to others. The Transitway wasn't going to be removed.

When was this presented? Would it also be elevated over the Beachburg Subdivision as well? Given that it is already elevated, crossing above it would be very high. OTOH, given that Knoxdale is less than 350m away, going under then over would be like a roller coaster. I know it would be expensive, but I think tunnelling is the only good option.

https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-en...tudy#notice-open-house-1-october-30-2019

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

That was always a ridiculous argument. The N-S LRT would have been slower to some destinations but faster to others. The Transitway wasn't going to be removed.

First of all, I was replying to OTownandDown’s assumption that “the Trillium South extension WAS the Barfhaven connection“ (not just one of them).

Secondly, with the circuitous route planned, I am very skeptical that it would be a better option for anyone west of the Rideau to get downtown.

Thirdly, while they wouldn’t have removed the south-western transitway itself, they would have significantly reduced the number of buses on it, replacing express buses with local buses that terminate at an O-train stop, effectively forcing people to use it as they would no longer have direct access to the transitway.

https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-en...tudy#notice-open-house-1-october-30-2019

Thanks. I’ll have to have a look at that.

[barbicels]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Your idea for Eagleson warrants some study. Build a large GO like parking structure there. Charge $2 a day to park there. And terminate the LRT there. Would probably be sufficient to last through 2040.

The EA and PIC sessions are done and dusted, but I think it’ll be 10 years or more before the Eagleson/March LRT station is built. Whether or not they stop the line there, the current design (crammed into the armpit of an already overloaded highway interchange; see Figure 10, here) is a penny-pinching, traffic-snarling nightmare, not future-ready, and no help to MTO’s objective to improve the capacity of that interchange.

Like you, I want to see something ambitious, an actual intermodal hub that will make LRT the obvious choice for downtown commuters living west of the Greenbelt, while also freeing up the north-south car-commuter flow peculiar to Kanata and its research park. (Throw March Road BRT in as a bonus.)

To do this, the NCC needs to give up some land, much of which is stream-beds and degraded farmland. My proposal (below) is to compensate the NCC with funds that the MTO can raise by leasing/selling off the highly desirable TOD parcel now occupied by the southwest cloverleaf.

Happy to discuss any shortcomings you see.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ahw8X47F_UFUipVjz9UVBa4mXG2nGQ

[J.OT13]

Certainly an improvement.

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by barbicels

The EA and PIC sessions are done and dusted, but I think it’ll be 10 years or more before the Eagleson/March LRT station is built. Whether or not they stop the line there, the current design (crammed into the armpit of an already overloaded highway interchange; see Figure 10, here) is a penny-pinching, traffic-snarling nightmare, not future-ready, and no help to MTO’s objective to improve the capacity of that interchange.

Like you, I want to see something ambitious, an actual intermodal hub that will make LRT the obvious choice for downtown commuters living west of the Greenbelt, while also freeing up the north-south car-commuter flow peculiar to Kanata and its research park. (Throw March Road BRT in as a bonus.)

To do this, the NCC needs to give up some land, much of which is stream-beds and degraded farmland. My proposal (below) is to compensate the NCC with funds that the MTO can raise by leasing/selling off the highly desirable TOD parcel now occupied by the southwest cloverleaf.

Happy to discuss any shortcomings you see.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jhv6vaeo6jhcktd/March-Eagleson%20LRT-BRT-Roads.pptx

I like your design. If the LRT makes it to Eagleson it would be a disaster if it didn't also go to the Centrum at the same time. Right now the different Park and Rides in Kanata do a good job dividing up the traffic but, if Eagleson is the only direct to rail option, it will get SLAMMED.

[DEWLine]

How do I change my vote, assuming I want to?

[DEWLine]

One thing I'm reasonably certain of is that Orléans will have at least one O-Train line already serving the borough. If it needs a second for the southern reaches, that might await a Stage 4 plan. Maybe?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by DEWLine

One thing I'm reasonably certain of is that Orléans will have at least one O-Train line already serving the borough. If it needs a second for the southern reaches, that might await a Stage 4 plan. Maybe?

I think it's pretty much guaranteed that the southern Orleans branch (Cumberland) will be built as Stage 4. Skip the BRT phase.

I don't agree with this, but suburbs have control of Council now and for years to come.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think it's pretty much guaranteed that the southern Orleans branch (Cumberland) will be built as Stage 4. Skip the BRT phase.

I don't agree with this, but suburbs have control of Council now and for years to come.

What Ottawa is building is akin to the Green Line in Boston. It serves the people well, but eventually, new lines downtown were built that also serves the downtown core better.

With the talk of the Gatineau LRT coming over, and not necessarily follow the same route as the Confederation Line, it could help with adding options to the core.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

What Ottawa is building is akin to the Green Line in Boston. It serves the people well, but eventually, new lines downtown were built that also serves the downtown core better.

With the talk of the Gatineau LRT coming over, and not necessarily follow the same route as the Confederation Line, it could help with adding options to the core.

I agree that there's a real opportunity, particularly if we were able to get any sort of regional coordination so that the Gatineau LRT can take a slightly different path downtown rather than just running alongside the Confederation Line and then booting it right back to Hull.

For example, one of STO's proposed options versions involved it turning south on Elgin is intriguing. Opens up so many possibilities if we could get past the various barriers that currently stop us from coordinating between the two cities.

[DEWLine]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think it's pretty much guaranteed that the southern Orleans branch (Cumberland) will be built as Stage 4. Skip the BRT phase. I don't agree with this, but suburbs have control of Council now and for years to come.

I suspect that you're right about skipping BRT for southern Orléans-Downtown purposes. Being a suburban resident without their own car myself, I find myself...not thrilled with the lack of balance either. And also, I think we also need a Bank Street line of sorts, at least from Centretown to South Keys or the airport. Probably a Montréal Road line as well, which could be made the western end of the "Orléans South/Avalon" line. I won't argue against the case for extending O-Train service into Kanata either.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

What Ottawa is building is akin to the Green Line in Boston. It serves the people well, but eventually, new lines downtown were built that also serves the downtown core better.

With the talk of the Gatineau LRT coming over, and not necessarily follow the same route as the Confederation Line, it could help with adding options to the core.

This whole debate just screams out for a single transit agency in the NCR.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

This whole debate just screams out for a single transit agency in the NCR.

Yep. Zero doubt in my mind that if this were one transit system, Line 2/Trillium would be going across the PoW bridge and replacing the Rapibus Corridor. Their LRT plans would also have been better integrated as parallel lines through the core, plugged into the existing tunnel, or line which also serve Ottawa (like a Bank St. Subway).

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yep. Zero doubt in my mind that if this were one transit system, Line 2/Trillium would be going across the PoW bridge and replacing the Rapibus Corridor. Their LRT plans would also have been better integrated as parallel lines through the core, plugged into the existing tunnel, or line which also serve Ottawa (like a Bank St. Subway).

I'm not a huge advocate of surface tramways, but STO's current plan for a Wellington Surface route is begging to be utilized by a combined Ottawa-Gatineau transit agency to re-institute some of the old tramway routes. I would love to see the STO tram split at Wellington/Elgin, with one branch going south on Elgin Street and another going east on Rideau/Montreal.

Alas, with it being a Gatineau-only tram, extending the route with branches deep into Ottawa doesn't make sense.

[Truenorth00]

Honestly, this is one area where the NCC could actually do good. Force the cities to actually integrate transit or simply come up with a model that works. For example, create an agency that runs the rail network. Leave STO and OC Transpo to run local bus feeder services. And pay to be get STO switched over to Presto.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

I'm not a huge advocate of surface tramways, but STO's current plan for a Wellington Surface route is begging to be utilized by a combined Ottawa-Gatineau transit agency to re-institute some of the old tramway routes. I would love to see the STO tram split at Wellington/Elgin, with one branch going south on Elgin Street and another going east on Rideau/Montreal.

Alas, with it being a Gatineau-only tram, extending the route with branches deep into Ottawa doesn't make sense.

This is your regular reminder that the City of Ottawa has already decided that there can never be a surface tram on Montreal Road.

Since the city is too cheap and too suburban to consider any other rapid/mass transit option for Montreal Road or any other major axis in the core, it's settled: there will be no urban higher-order transit in Ottawa that isn't already built or on the books. It's all suburban transit projects, or city buses. The urban communities just get the pleasure of paying for the Orleans and Kanata and Barrhaven lines.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

I'm not a huge advocate of surface tramways, but STO's current plan for a Wellington Surface route is begging to be utilized by a combined Ottawa-Gatineau transit agency to re-institute some of the old tramway routes. I would love to see the STO tram split at Wellington/Elgin, with one branch going south on Elgin Street and another going east on Rideau/Montreal.

Alas, with it being a Gatineau-only tram, extending the route with branches deep into Ottawa doesn't make sense.

While I agree that STO wouldn't pay to extend the tram as you described, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility (once STO has an alternate branch to serve Hull) for OC Transpo to do the extension and come to an arrangement for the to share the surface lines in Hull and downtown Ottawa.