The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by vid

"I'm not a fragile person!!!" cries Mark hysterically as he weeps over his hoard of racist iconography. "I can live without Uncle Ben and Mrs Buttersworth!!" he chokes out between gasping sobs from his basement hoard of pancake mixes and fake war bonnets.

“Your exaggerated comical caricature is not entirely correct. I don’t own any war bonnets! Your entire line of reasoning is therefore wrong!”

[MonctonRad]

I think this entire debate has jumped the shark. Obviously there is nothing more to discuss since there appears to be absolutely no common ground. Good evening and have fun at your anti-white male march and anti capitalist picnic tomorrow.

[vid]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Obviously there is nothing more to discuss since there appears to be absolutely no common ground.

It's not that there can't be common ground, there just isn't.

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

The evidence is that it has been highly effective at changing public opinion and getting more done than any other protest in my lifetime. Bravo, I say.

Originally Posted by vid

Pray tell, what should they have done? Silently taken a knee? Notwithstanding that most of the rioting and violence was initiated by police and white supremacist groups and subsided after the police ran out of ammunition, please, explain to me how people fighting for their rights hurts them. Put it into the context of that nation that became independent after revolting over an import tax placed on tea.

Because the end goal isn't about black lives or black rights, its about dismantling western institutions. You have several examples of other users pointing this out and none of them seem at all right wing or "alt-right" or whatever. It's blatant and staring you in the face. What happened to the UBC guy will absolutely happen to you in the future whether you're willing to admit it. Or maybe you like submitting to angry mobs and have no convictions on your own?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by vid

It's not that there can't be common ground, there just isn't.

It's not so much you vid, I enjoy your points of view even when I don't necessarily agree with them. dreambrother808 however is a whole order of magnitude more radical than you are, and will be satisfied with nothing less than the complete destruction of western society. He would make the cultural revolution seem like a walk in the park. His path is a journey to complete destruction. How can anyone have a reasonable debate with that??????

[vid]

I think he is reasonable. I think you are having difficulty separating western culture from racism. The two are not completely inextricable. The BLM movement isn't about abolishing western culture, it's about reforming it into something more equitable.

The defund the police movement is simply asking for many of the tasks and funding currently given to police be re-allocated to groups that are better equipped to respond to them. You call me reasonable, but I have, for years now, advocated for the same, and in some cases proposed ways in which we can not just defund but abolish police and prisons entirely. Is the difference between me and dreambrother, perhaps, that I have stated I believe this process will take decades to accomplish, while he has not?

I've explained before my philosophy on what it is to be an ally: to take the rage and anger and desperation of the oppressed, and understand what their needs are, and then translate that into something white people can listen to without getting scared. White people feel that if they were oppressed, they'd want revenge. Minorities don't want revenge, they just want the same opportunities and treatment that white people are already giving to each other. The things we are losing or that they advocate we lose—confederate statues, a few brand names, oppressive police, a severely flawed prison system, discriminatory hiring practices—those aren't things that I feel like fighting to keep in the first place. Why do you fight so hard to keep them? How does it improve your life, that we put so many people into prisons that only damage them even more? How does it improve your life, that police are so quick to draw arms against non-white people? How does it improve your life that the security guard at Sobeys pays more attention to the movements of native customers than white ones? How does it improve your life that instant pancake mix is named after a minstrel show mammy, or that a rice brand is named for an indentured servant? How does it make your life better that we've maintained decades of unfair treatment toward an entire group of people and only bother to address it when tensions flare up, and ignore it the rest of the time? Where is the benefit in this to you? Ask yourself that question before writing the next post in which you express a desire to maintain the system as it is.

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by rousseau

If you look closely at those stats you'll see that some of them are unbalanced in favour of African Americans.

Is BLM the answer for making more progress? I think the evidence weighs more heavily in it being detrimental.

The reason why the media and the government push the notion of "systemic" instead of systematic all of a sudden is because the idea of systemic racism falls under the same category as implicit bias which (unfortunately) is damn near impossible to prove under an equal justice system.

"Did that employer not hire me because of my race/gender/religion? I can't prove an explicit example but I have a hunch that as him being a 60 year old white man it's probably true"

Bang. Systemic racism.

Not that I'm saying some 60 year old white employers don't hold implicit biases against minorities, but unless they say/prove it explicitly then well..? I guess we can just assume all 60 year old white men are racist though because some of them out there are so lets [cancel] them.

However, if the government started claiming systematic racism then if your indigenous/white/asian you can clearly point to legislated examples of systematic racism against you through the Indian Act or equity laws in regards to academic institutions or employment opportunities. Can't let that little doozy get out [in the voice of Ned Flanders]. So are we equal, or not?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by vid

He definitely seems far more invested in the issue than I am, and I'm supposed to be the SJW here.

I think you have that reversed; rousseau doesn't ever seem anywhere near exhausted posting about these things - he looks to me like someone simply posting their opinion on something on a discussion forum.

Keep in mind that on forums like SSP, it doesn't take much for someone to seem very invested in something when the reality is that they're pretty apathetic about it in the grand scheme of things.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It's not so much you vid, I enjoy your points of view even when I don't necessarily agree with them. dreambrother808 however is a whole order of magnitude more radical than you are, and will be satisfied with nothing less than the complete destruction of western society. He would make the cultural revolution seem like a walk in the park. His path is a journey to complete destruction. How can anyone have a reasonable debate with that??????

What an imagination.

Funnily enough, it does speak to what you perceive western society to be built on. Dismantle the racist parts of the foundations and you can’t picture it.

I’m part of the system. I hold many practical, centrist views. I can’t stop laughing at your vision of me.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by vid

How does it improve your life that the security guard at Sobeys pays more attention to the movements of native customers than white ones?

Actually, I can answer this one. I was reflecting on the fact that I've been the victim of profiling by my hometown's police several times (being 1) young and 2) male), and despite that, my opinion (my victim status here allows me to have an opinion, clearly ) is that given finite resources, it makes sense to use them not blindly.

If I demanded that my hometown's police start to arrest 50% females from now on, and they complied, then it seems obvious that this would result in either 1) more crime (given equivalent resources) or 2) higher taxes (for more resources).

And "less crime in my hometown" does improve my life, same thing with "lower municipal taxes for the same results".

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

The reason why the media and the government push the notion of "systemic" instead of systematic all of a sudden is because the idea of systemic racism falls under the same category as implicit bias which (unfortunately) is damn near impossible to prove under an equal justice system.

"Did that employer not hire me because of my race/gender/religion? I can't prove an explicit example but I have a hunch that as him being a 60 year old white man it's probably true"

Bang. Systemic racism.

Not that I'm saying some 60 year old white employers don't hold implicit biases against minorities, but unless they say/prove it explicitly then well..? I guess we can just assume all 60 year old white men are racist though because some of them out there are so lets [cancel] them.

However, if the government started claiming systematic racism then if your indigenous/white/asian you can clearly point to legislated examples of systematic racism against you through the Indian Act or equity laws in regards to academic institutions or employment opportunities. Can't let that little doozy get out [in the voice of Ned Flanders]. So are we equal, or not?

Once again, read a book. Do some research. Systemic racism isn’t a pie-in-the-sky idea.

[vid]

Originally Posted by lio45

If I demanded that my hometown's police start to arrest 50% females from now on, and they complied, then it seems obvious that this would result in either 1) more crime (given equivalent resources) or 2) higher taxes (for more resources).

So, that's actually the opposite of what anyone is asking for. New York's social experiment with stop and frisk (and Toronto's social experiment of carding) demonstrated that black people who were stopped by police were less likely than white people who were stopped by police to have drugs and weapons on them. It also demonstrated that police repeatedly stop the same black person with no results than they ever stop the same white person with no results.

If, instead of asking for the practice (which affected everyone to at least some degree) to be stopped, we had asked for them to stop and frisk or card more white people, then your comparison would have some merit to it. But that wasn't requested, so your comparison is silly.

You also ignore root causes of crime and criminality: people who are placed lower on the social ladder are more likely to be desperate, and desperation leads to crime. Reduce desperation, and you'll reduce crime. Stopping and frisking people and writing them up for repeated minor violations makes them less employable on paper, but not in practice. So stop doing that. It hurts western society to do that.

Originally Posted by lio45

And "less crime in my hometown" does improve my life, same thing with "lower municipal taxes for the same results".

Then why not advocate that the police be reduced in size and refocused on investigating only violent and severe crimes, and leave the bulk of their other work to other agencies, many of which are not even publicly funded? I volunteer at a youth centre that my city's chief of police has said is indispensable and an important part of crime prevention and making the job of police easier in this neighbourhood, she's also advocated for many policing tasks to be transferred to other non-police agencies—and this was over a year ago, before #defundthepolice—so clearly, even people leading law enforcement are on the same page. And most of our funding this year is from donations, not the government. This represents a savings to the taxpayer. Even the chief of what has been described as one of the most racist police forces in Canada agrees with the core principles of defunding police.

So why wouldn't you? Over 20% of our property taxes go to the police budget. It could be less.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by vid

...

Then why not advocate that the police be reduced in size and refocused on investigating only violent and severe crimes, and leave the bulk of their other work to other agencies, many of which are not even publicly funded? ...

...

So to be practical, shouldn't this be tried on a trial basis (like a controlled experiment) in various demographic environments to see how it works first. I think that would be a reasonable approach before going into it blindly.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

I think you have that reversed; rousseau doesn't ever seem anywhere near exhausted posting about these things - he looks to me like someone simply posting their opinion on something on a discussion forum.

Keep in mind that on forums like SSP, it doesn't take much for someone to seem very invested in something when the reality is that they're pretty apathetic about it in the grand scheme of things.

Rousseau is actually enduring a pretty gross assault and character assassination on here. Based on assumptions and profiling based on his age and, ironically, his race.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Architype

So to be practical, shouldn't this be tried on a trial basis (like a controlled experiment) in various demographic environments to see how it works first. I think that would be a reasonable approach before going into it blindly.

In practice, that seems to be what is happening already as various communities make changes to their policing structures. Nothing has happened across the board, nor could it. Western society is not collapsing. Relax, see how it plays out.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

So to be practical, shouldn't this be tried on a trial basis (like a controlled experiment) in various demographic environments to see how it works first. I think that would be a reasonable approach before going into it blindly.

Feel free to test that anywhere that I do not live.

Thanks!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Just thought I'd repost this again because the stats are so surprising. Who would have guessed?

Those stats were very eye-opening. I already knew this was happening, but not to that extent.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vid

Well thank the lord!

Another one bites the dust!

Purity is on the horizon!

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Rousseau is actually enduring a pretty gross assault and character assassination on here. Based on assumptions and profiling based on his age and, ironically, his race.

Yes, white fragility is tough, isn’t it?

Make it a joke. Claim something ridiculous. Why should anyone care about what you say when you obviously don’t?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Yes, white fragility is tough, isn’t it?

Seems no different from the fragility of any other group.