The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

The blue line is truly cursed. It's already stunted at 6 cars instead of 9. And it is often dismissed as useless, but the blue line is a vital part of transportation for the centre part of the island. It connects a giant mall (Fairview), the country's second largest university (UdM), Quebec's densest and poorest neighbourhood (Parc-ex), a giant park (Parc Jarry), arguably Canada's nicest residential neighbourhood (Outremont), Canada's largest religious shrine (St-Joseph's) and countless other hubs and attractions. It's extension is long overdue.

It's sad, actually when you think of it. The REM phase II will probably be built or start construction by the time the Blue line is extended.

Yes the REM phase 2 will be built before the blue line extension pens, but the project will get built. That's why the STM is fighting gor Bill 61 to get approved.

[Darkoshvilli]

What does Fairview have to do with the blue line? Its in Point-Claire.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Quebec City appears to have done more in a year or so than Calgary has done in five.

To be fair, Quebec City is late in the game.

[FrAnKs]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

To be fair, Quebec City is late in the game.

Yup. We're trying to catch up the group.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This is less of an issue if you keep in mind that the distance between the two stations is achieved because between them is the War Memorial (no residents), Canal (no residents), and other facilities which have no residents. The placing of both stations makes logical sense and I don't think anyone is actually complaining all that much about their relative separation.

I have complained. It is a very long walk from any station to City Hall, much longer than the previous Transitway system.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

To be fair, Quebec City is late in the game.

Not to mention the extremely challenging geology (glacial sand and alluvial deposits) and topographic (going up a 100 meter incline immediately after the river) constraints in Calgary, relative to the mostly bedrock and soil of Quebec City. Ours was certainly mismanaged, but all the changes ended up making sense. It’s just a shame it took them so long to figure it out.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

The blue line is truly cursed. It's already stunted at 6 cars instead of 9. And it is often dismissed as useless, but the blue line is a vital part of transportation for the centre part of the island. It connects a giant mall (Fairview), the country's second largest university (UdM), Quebec's densest and poorest neighbourhood (Parc-ex), a giant park (Parc Jarry), arguably Canada's nicest residential neighbourhood (Outremont), Canada's largest religious shrine (St-Joseph's) and countless other hubs and attractions. It's extension is long overdue.

It's sad, actually when you think of it. The REM phase II will probably be built or start construction by the time the Blue line is extended.

I wouldn't call it useless. The success of Montreal's Metro is largely thanks to its density, serving the urban core very well instead of stretching thin in order to serve as far into the suburbs as possible, which seems to be the underlining goal of all other Canadian rapid transit system.

What is the Blue Line's ridership? I was unable to find it.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I wouldn't call it useless. The success of Montreal's Metro is largely thanks to its density, serving the urban core very well instead of stretching thin in order to serve as far into the suburbs as possible, which seems to be the underlining goal of all other Canadian rapid transit system.

Just my personal opinion but I think that Vancouver's Skytrain and transit system does a very good job at serving its core as well as its suburbs. The Millennium extension along Broadway (to begin construction this year) will make an incredible impact to the city. Personally I would call it a driving force of the redefining a new "mid-town" section of the city but that's just me.

IMO, downtown Vancouver just needs the Expo line to extend east along Hastings a little bit before the downtown area can be considered adequately served (along with more commuter rail options) with rapid transit as the West End, and the downtown peninsula in general, is extremely walkable. You can legitimately walk from English Bay to the CBD within 30-35 minutes keeping a decent pace; and of course there is a very decent bus system on the peninsula to boot.

Keeping on topic starting from East to West :

Halifax



I'm only linking the picture of this one because I kind of feel that it gets lost in the shuffle.

I really like the ideas behind it, especially with the ferries system. Dare I say they could be similar to Vancouver's Sea Bus? Anyways the BRT system looks like it makes sense and it seems extremely appropriate for Halifax's population size. I just hope that they don't shy away from upgrading a BRT line to automated LRT sometime down the road because we all know the mess that street-integrated LRT causes .


Quebec's LRT project is indeed long overdue.

I just wish that it was all grade separated with automated trains like a REM/Skytrain system. I think that QC is missing a big opportunity to develop a core rapid transit system in lieu of an LRT system comparable to Ottawa's Confederation line. The LRT system being proposed in QC, as I understand it, will mostly be at-grade and mixed with traffic. I think that the system could have easily handled an REM system for the same route but with a different design.

As a point of comparison for population, Vancouver received its first Skytrain line in the 80's where the city was less populated than QC is now.


Montreal's REM is a game changer.

Once this sucker is operating, it will be a HUGE game changer for the region. When it is operating, I will easily credit Montreal for having one of the top 2 best transit systems in Canada since it connects everything so well with low operating costs. The REM, along with Vancouver's Skytrain and Toronto's Ontario line, should serve as prestigious examples for other cities to follow for rapid transit system spines as they execute high PPHPD with minimal operating expenses.

The blue line extension is needed and as much as I love automated light metros, I also think that Canadian cities need to stay ontop of expanding their heavy metros (if needed).

Montreal hasn't had significant transit expansions recently so it was a long time coming and it is super exciting that it gets some super heavy weight transit expansions. And there are also speculations about bringing streetcars back - which would be, again, awesome for the city as a clean capacity solution.


Gatineau/Ottawa

It would be great to see Gatineau's LRT line pull through and connect to Ottawa but I also understand that Montreal's REM and QC's LRT will take priority so I don't expect to see this happening anytime soon.

It's sad to see that the Confederation line is still plagued with problems even into the Summer season. I would honestly give it another year before things start to run more smoothly. However it has to get things under control before phase 2 starts testing.

Another aspect of their system that really bothers me is the lack of pressure from the city to explore the idea of double tracking ALL of the Trillium line. The Trillium line is only going to get more and more significant with all of the extensions that they are planning so it is perplexing that the city doesn't prioritize double tracking it all the way through.

On the flip side, it is nice that Ottawa is vehemently committing to extending the Confederation and Trillium lines.


Toronto

The Eglinton extension has been taking a tremendously long time to get constructed but once it is up and running, I can see good things for it. Again it is disappointing that it wasn't designed as an automated light metro as we have the technology readily available and the operating expenses are clutch especially when so few parts of this extension share the street with vehicles. The route of the Eglinton extension is perfect for what it needs to do so I am happy with the route but I just take some issues with the technology being used and the strenuous construction time.

The Ontario line will be another game changer for Toronto as it introduces the "new" technology of automated light metros. I think that the Ontario line will be extremely easy to extend with its automated trains and that Torontonians will really appreciate that it will hopefully effectively serve as the relief line that they need.

Once the Eglinton and Ontario lines are built and operating, I would easily say that Toronto will have one of the best transit systems in North America competing for the top 5 spots. Toronto has an amazing commuter rail system, a streetcar/LRT system that they continue to extend and expand, and a mix of metro lines that interconnect at various places of importance in the city.


Edmonton

For me, Edmonton got really lucky by constructing its downtown tunnel. Outside of that, its planned extensions are just okay to me. It is a system that it constantly plagued with vehicle accidents with the system so, for me, I definitely don't like the fact that it is integrated with vehicle traffic.

Edmonton is really missing out on building a true metro of some kind. I know that this is a shot in the dark but I hope that after the construction of its LRT extensions to Blatchford or to Heritage Valley, that Edmonton really considers that idea of upgrading one of its lines to a grade separated light metro of some sort. Or at least that they study the feasibility of it... I'm afraid that since they've committed to LRT and have built their LRT system so extensively that they will be stuck with it .


Calgary

The green line extension is nothing short of exciting for me since it is adding in that much needed downtown tunnel... well, sort of. I'm hoping that the green line extension will encourage the idea of tunneling in downtown for the Red/Blue lines. 7th Avenue SW could easily turn into a pedestrian high street (like Martin Pl in Sydney, Australia) which would be awesome.

Again, I feel that because Calgary has committed to LRT that it will continue to develop its "rapid" transit as street integrated LRT instead of looking into developing some sort of an automated light metro. So, like Edmonton, I'm not expecting the main transit train system to function with the current problems that it has.

Unfortunately this is what you get for getting in bed with a street-integrated LRT system I guess .


Vancouver

As of today, June 20 2020, it is just my opinion that Vancouver has the second best transit system in Canada with its Skytrain, WCE, seabus, and autobus network. But that opinion is going to change in the near future when the REM in Montreal is operating...

Truth be told, Vancouver can be credited with having a hell of an explosive transit renaissance since the 80's with a new train technology not seen before in the world. But right now between the Big 3, IMO, Vancouver is suffering from the tragic "last mile" problem with its extensions as they currently stand.

The Millennium line needs to be extended ALL the way to UBC however currently it is only funded up until Arbutus street. With the federal government offering funds for infrastructure projects in this difficult economic time, the COV should be taking advantage of this to just get the Mline to UBC. Although, as it currently stands, the Mline will be a huge game changer once it's constructed to Arbutus as that section of Broadway is a huge employment centre. IMO, it will create a mid-town effect in Vancouver.

The Mline as it is proposed only pushes the issues of the 99B line to Arbutus street; it doesn't solve any issues. And the PPHPD on the extended Mline is definitely going to stress-test the Canada line's capacity to handle high numbers. Specifically I am thinking that the 5-6pm rush hour is going to be brutal with a significant percentage of the Mline's longer trains emptying into the shorter Canada line trains going both directions.

On another interesting note, Port Coquitlam's mayor expressed an interest for an eastward extension into the city of Port Coquitlam. The Mline already has a fork after Coquitlam Station built that's pointing in that direction...

Next is the Expo line... currently it is only funded to extend up until Fleetwood with a planned extension to Langley whereas this line needs to go ALL the way to Langley. Between the Expo and Millennium line, this is definitely the cheaper extension because it would all be elevated.

And lastly the Canada Line... nothing new has been proposed outside of an extra Skytrain station however what I would personally like to see is more talk about the single tracking in Richmond. I think that it was extremely short-sighted to make it single-tracked in Richmond and now we are paying the price. This is kind of the same situation with the Trillium line where you have a main directional connector hindered by single-tracking.

Vancouver doesn't have the intercity highway systems like Montreal, Toronto, and Calgary has (and I am glad for that) but it does lend itself so easily to develop transit. It's just disappointing that Vancouver has seemed to have lost its momentum to keep up with extending its transit infrastructure in this day-and-age. Specifically the last mile problems are coming to mind when it comes to the Expo and Millennium line extensions.

I do understand that Vancouver is looking to replace a couple of bridges and tunnels within the city so that definitely has its strains on transit infrastructure.

[J.OT13]

I agree Vancouver has also done a good job at serving the central core of the city. Starting with the Canada Line (though disappointed in the 1.2 km gap between Yaletown-Roundhouse and City Centre), and now the Broadway Subway, it will come close to Montreal in terms of urban coverage. Extending the the Broadway Subway to UBC should be a top priority.

Vancouver has, hands down IMO, the best track record of building and expanding rail over the last 4 decades.

[Chadillaccc]

I agree partially with your critique of Calgary. However, our system has average speeds identical to that of the grade separated systems in the country (around 80 km/h) and despite the Red and Blue Lines being at-grade downtown, traffic incidents are fairly few and far between (though they could be lower). Outside of downtown, traffic incidents are virtually nonexistent and trains have 100% signal priority. All-in-all, for a system 60 km long in mixed traffic, the thing carries 330,000 people a day. It’s not too shabby.

Unfortunately none of our lines could be grade separated without significant negative impacts to surrounding communities. The Red Line is the only possible candidate for separation (because of the future red line tunnel [blue is staying at grade indefinitely]), but doing so would fuck up the community of Sunnyside so would have very little public support for so little public gain. Plus they are now adding the punch-through of 17 Avenue into Stampede Park, so very unlikely to happen. It’ll be 30 to 50 years (approx. municipal population 2 million) before Red Line capacity issues force grade-separation.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by scryer

I really like the ideas behind it, especially with the ferries system. Dare I say they could be similar to Vancouver's Sea Bus?

I hope so because there are already 2 ferry routes. They are very similar to the SeaBus and are much older than it is (ferry service there goes back to 1750 or so).

(Actually they are nicer because there is an upper deck that is outside. If the SeaBus updates its fleet one day they should avoid hermetically sealed boats.)

The 3 ferry terminals to the upper left in that image will be new while the other 3 already exist, although the downtown terminal will need to be expanded to be able to handle more ferries and passengers.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

I agree partially with your critique of Calgary. However, our system has average speeds identical to that of the grade separated systems in the country (around 80 km/h) and despite the Red and Blue Lines being at-grade downtown, traffic incidents are fairly few and far between (though they could be lower). Outside of downtown, traffic incidents are virtually nonexistent and trains have 100% signal priority. All-in-all, for a system 60 km long in mixed traffic, the thing carries 330,000 people a day. It’s not too shabby.

Agreed. Between Edmonton and Calgary's LRT systems, Calgary easily has the best between the two. Traditional LRT systems are extremely sensitive to its design IMO. I definitely forgot to compare Calgary and Edmonton's system in my post since I totally had it in the back of my mind that Calgary had the more effective LRT system .

I still think that a larger city is selling itself short when it chooses grade-crossing LRT as its core spine instead of an automated system in this day-and-age. Although if you have LRT as your main spine then you either have to upgrade it or work with it to its best potential. This isn't a criticism for Calgary or Edmonton though; mostly a critique for QC.

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Unfortunately none of our lines could be grade separated without significant negative impacts to surrounding communities. The Red Line is the only possible candidate for separation (because of the future red line tunnel [blue is staying at grade indefinitely]), but doing so would fuck up the community of Sunnyside so would have very little public support for so little public gain. Plus they are now adding the punch-through of 17 Avenue into Stampede Park, so very unlikely to happen. It’ll be 30 to 50 years (approx. municipal population 2 million) before Red Line capacity issues force grade-separation.

How would a grade separation mess up Sunnyside out of curiosity? Are you thinking that it would be elevated? I'm just not familiar with the proposed design schemes and I am happy to gain the insights .

Originally Posted by someone123

I hope so because there are already 2 ferry routes. They are very similar to the SeaBus and are much older than it is (ferry service there goes back to 1750 or so).

(Actually they are nicer because there is an upper deck that is outside. If the SeaBus updates its fleet one day they should avoid hermetically sealed boats.)

The 3 ferry terminals to the upper left in that image will be new while the other 3 already exist, although the downtown terminal will need to be expanded to be able to handle more ferries and passengers.

It would be quite unique and charming for Halifax to prioritize sea travel as a means of public transportation. What are the current travel times between ferry stops for its current ferry system? Does it take ~15-20 minutes to cross? Seabuses and ferries have to be convenient in order for people to use them as a means of public transportation which is why the Seabus to North Van does so well (as I'm sure you know ).

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by scryer

How would a grade separation mess up Sunnyside out of curiosity? Are you thinking that it would be elevated? I'm just not familiar with the proposed design schemes and I am happy to gain the insights .

I can't think of a way of doing it that wouldn't be very expensive. It definitely isn't top priority, what is more important is grade separating downtown, not forgetting the secion immediately south of the river - where there is no transit priority and the trains are almost always delayed. There has been zero work on this and I have doubts the mythical 8 ave tunnel will ever happen.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by scryer

It would be quite unique and charming for Halifax to prioritize sea travel as a means of public transportation. What are the current travel times between ferry stops for its current ferry system? Does it take ~15-20 minutes to cross? Seabuses and ferries have to be convenient in order for people to use them as a means of public transportation which is why the Seabus to North Van does so well (as I'm sure you know ).

The current Halifax-Dartmouth ferries carry about 1.4 million passengers per year. They have 5 vessels that each hold around 390 passengers (bunch of info here). I'd guess the crossing takes around 10-20 minutes.

The new ferries are supposed to be 2-3x faster than the existing ferries. The Bedford ferry in particular would travel much farther and would not be attractive at the current ferry speeds. But the transit report projected that it would be faster than driving. One of the reasons for creating a Bedford ferry is that road access to that area is constrained somewhat by geography but the population is growing quickly around there.

I remember a Bedford ferry trial run sometime around the early 2000's. There have been never-ending debates between doing commuter rail and a ferry for that area. I guess the ferry proposal has come back now because round 37 of CN talks has failed.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by scryer

Toronto

The Eglinton extension has been taking a tremendously long time to get constructed but once it is up and running, I can see good things for it. Again it is disappointing that it wasn't designed as an automated light metro as we have the technology readily available and the operating expenses are clutch especially when so few parts of this extension share the street with vehicles. The route of the Eglinton extension is perfect for what it needs to do so I am happy with the route but I just take some issues with the technology being used and the strenuous construction time.

The Ontario line will be another game changer for Toronto as it introduces the "new" technology of automated light metros. I think that the Ontario line will be extremely easy to extend with its automated trains and that Torontonians will really appreciate that it will hopefully effectively serve as the relief line that they need.

Once the Eglinton and Ontario lines are built and operating, I would easily say that Toronto will have one of the best transit systems in North America competing for the top 5 spots. Toronto has an amazing commuter rail system, a streetcar/LRT system that they continue to extend and expand, and a mix of metro lines that interconnect at various places of importance in the city.

I agree that, once the Eglinton and Ontario lines are built, Toronto's system will feel much more complete and well-rounded compared to what it is today. Add in the potential Finch West LRT and there's more coverage available. As of right now there isn't really many options from getting from Point A to Point B but Eglinton, and especially Ontario, really open up options and flexibility for travel.

In particular, I think the Eglinton corridor is a great addition to the LRT/Subway system.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

To be fair, Quebec City is late in the game.

Meanwhile Winnipeg be like

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

Meanwhile Winnipeg be like

One thing people talk about in Halifax is that the province of Nova Scotia takes a big role in highway development but has no experience developing modern rapid transit systems.

NS has contemplated a $1.1B highway 102 corridor expansion and multi-billion dollar bridge projects. Something like LRT is seen as pie-in-the-sky or special gold-plated urban infrastructure while highways are just "normal" and relevant to everybody, urban or rural (with a lot of the "rural" population in NS actually being exurban).

In Kitchener-Waterloo and Quebec City the respective provincial authorities already have lots of experience with ambitious transit development.

I wonder if something similar is at play in Manitoba.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by someone123

One thing people talk about in Halifax is that the province of Nova Scotia takes a big role in highway development but no experience developing modern rapid transit systems.

NS has contemplated a $1.1B highway 102 corridor expansion and multi-billion dollar bridge projects, but LRT is seen as pie-in-the-sky or special gold-plated urban infrastructure while highways serve everyone in the province (sort of).

In Kitchener-Waterloo and Quebec City the respective provincial authorities already have lots of experience with ambitious transit development.

I wonder if something similar is at play in Manitoba.

There is no way that lack of an in-province model for funding and design can't be a factor.

People in Manitoba talk about rail-based transit for Winnipeg in the same way one would talk about a provincial manned space exploration project... like it is some absurdly farfetched notion completely untethered from reality. Of course, if we had a major metropolis in the province, I think it's certain that Winnipeg would have some form of rail based transit.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by someone123

In Kitchener-Waterloo and Quebec City the respective provincial authorities already have lots of experience with ambitious transit development.

I wonder if something similar is at play in Manitoba.

Hilariously I feel like when it comes to major transit expenditures that the provincial governments just simply refuse to talk to each other . There is nothing stopping MB and NS transit authorities from asking their larger neighbour provinces for some pointers on public transit infrastructure. In fact it should be encouraged more.

It would be great if the Hali municipal government asked Metro Van politicians about how they were able to set aside land relatively easy for Skytrain expansions (specifically Port Coquitlam and Surrey's Fraser Valley HWY come to mind) and for optimal Seabus terminal design. In fact, Halifax should be specifically talking to Vancouver about rapid transit planning because they are both major ports that have similar geography. Sure Hali may not be ready for rail at the moment but they will thank their lucky stars for having the wisdom to set aside some land, do some super preliminary ground work (within a utility upgrade budget), or slowly purchase some unused freight rail for when they are ready to develop a passenger rail service.

On the flip side it would also be great if Vancouver asked Toronto about their Streetcar and commuter rail planning...

Maybe it's just the media's spin on things but I just don't hear a lot about interprovincial (or intercity for that matter) collaboration on transit planning; and to me that is so weird because in Canada we pretty much have all kinds of passenger rail services that can be found in a city. Sometimes it seems like they all want to make the same mistakes just to see for themselves . I mean there is a reason why the Ontario line is being proposed with automated rail technology instead of LRT (like the Eglinton line) or heavy metro. And there is a reason why Montreal invested so heavily in REM. And there is a reason why Metro Vancouver scrapped LRT extensions in favour of Skytrain extensions - twice!

[foolworm]

Honestly I'm not really impressed by any of the Canadian transit systems except for their relatively high ridership. None of them are particularly well built-out, and I feel that the natural comparison to US equivalents have inflated people's egos. We really should be comparing ourselves to the Nordic and Eastern European countries, which would probably instill a bit more modesty.

I also feel like there's a interesting comparison to be made against Australian cities, which have far more developed networks but yet have somewhat lower transit modeshare relative to Canada. The amounts they pour into infrastructure improvements are enormous - for instance the tunnels that are being bored for the Sydney / Melbourne Metros make the works for Eglinton, Green Line, or REM look puny.