The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[someone123]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

In a few generations we will see so many more races getting married and having "mixed" kids, then those kids will further mix, etc. It will become difficult, in a good way, to see specific races in people.

If I were to engage in the speculation game I'd guess that you're a bit older, maybe in your 50's.

I mostly know 20 and 30 somethings in Vancouver and this is already really common (as in maybe 1/3 of the couples I know; but to me it's not even something I notice much because it is so common). Part of the reason why, I think, is that university tends to be very diverse. And I suspect that to the typical 25 year old in Vancouver talking about a "mixed marriage" in terms of race is a bit like talking about a "mixed marriage" of two different Christian variants in 1970; not impossible to related to as a concept but kind of outdated and certainly not top of mind.

A lot of the anti-racist handwringing, to me, sounds like it's about a world that I simply haven't inhabited as a resident of urban Canada mostly post-2000. It might be different in Lethbridge or Chatham but those places are less reflective of the "norm" in Canada than Toronto or Vancouver, and the cities show where everyone else is headed.

The "where are you really from" microaggression thing feels antique to me too.

[Coldrsx]

RE: Eskimos - they have been slowly transitioning to the Edmonton Empire...

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Maybe I was just naïve but I never really saw any of that stuff as racist as a kid. Not until as a young adult people started saying "that's racist!" and I reacted with a "Oh, OK."

Aunt Jemima was just a nice lady who enjoyed cooking (for her family or her employer, or whomever), not at all unlike a whole bunch of similar women I had in my entourage. Even if they weren't black.

I also never found sports team names or logos racist or even objectionable. As I have said many times before I saw them as compliments. Even today I think the Chicago Blackhawks' logo is one of the most beautiful in all of sports.

If they name a sports team for your people it's that you're strong, not weak.

You grew up in Ontario. Context is everything.

There is a world of difference between the Chicago Blackhawks' depiction and the Cleveland Indians' depiction of Natives.

Redskins is incredibly offensive.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

You grew up in Ontario. Context is everything.

And the Maritimes.

You do have a point, though I would be really surprised if all African-Americans hated Aunt Jemima as a symbol of their oppression, and even moreso if most White Americans actually saw her as a comforting reminder of African-Americans safely kept in their rightful place as demure servants.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

In a few generations we will see so many more races getting married and having "mixed" kids, then those kids will further mix, etc. It will become difficult, in a good way, to see specific races in people.

Of course this is half the reason all of the white "master race" types are up in arms.

Wait a minute. This was the point I made a few days ago, in light of my experience in Vancouver as a Chinese person, and you kind of brushed it off and said regardless there was still racism in Vancouver against Chinese people.

I’m pointing this out not because I want to gloat and have my post acknowledged, but because if you admit this is largely what’s happening, then is Vancouver society really systemically racist against Chinese people?

To me ethnic mixing - especially among the ruling classes - is basically the diametric opposite of racism any way you slice and dice it.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I sincerely hope you're right.

Not sure that history supports that hypothesis, though.

Not across all groups. But I see it a lot more than I did 20 years ago.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by someone123

If I were to engage in the speculation game I'd guess that you're a bit older, maybe in your 50's.

Not that old, but I am wise beyond my years.

Originally Posted by someone123

I mostly know 20 and 30 somethings in Vancouver and this is already really common (as in maybe 1/3 of the couples I know; but to me it's not even something I notice much because it is so common). Part of the reason why, I think, is that university tends to be very diverse. And I suspect that to the typical 25 year old in Vancouver talking about a "mixed marriage" in terms of race is a bit like talking about a "mixed marriage" of two different Christian variants in 1970; not impossible to related to as a concept but kind of outdated and certainly not top of mind.

A lot of the anti-racist handwringing, to me, sounds like it's about a world that I simply haven't inhabited as a resident of urban Canada mostly post-2000. It might be different in Lethbridge or Chatham but those places are less reflective of the "norm" in Canada than Toronto or Vancouver, and the cities show where everyone else is headed.

The "where are you really from" microaggression thing feels antique to me too.

Vancouver is far ahead of the curve on this one. I mentioned "future generations" in the sense that these 20s-30s are only now getting married and having kids, and we're a full generation or two of this being totally normal, again with couples who are each mixed race themselves.

Go somewhere a little more rural, or even out to Chiliwack. A mixed race couple would still be something uncommon at best.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

If I were to engage in the speculation game I'd guess that you're a bit older, maybe in your 50's.

I mostly know 20 and 30 somethings in Vancouver and this is already really common (as in maybe 1/3 of the couples I know; but to me it's not even something I notice much because it is so common). Part of the reason why, I think, is that university tends to be very diverse. And I suspect that to the typical 25 year old in Vancouver talking about a "mixed marriage" in terms of race is a bit like talking about a "mixed marriage" of two different Christian variants in 1970; not impossible to related to as a concept but kind of outdated and certainly not top of mind.

A lot of the anti-racist handwringing, to me, sounds like it's about a world that I simply haven't inhabited as a resident of urban Canada mostly post-2000. It might be different in Lethbridge or Chatham but those places are less reflective of the "norm" in Canada than Toronto or Vancouver, and the cities show where everyone else is headed.

The "where are you really from" microaggression thing feels antique to me too.

Well, I am around 50 and am the descendant of an inter-racial marriage between an immigrant and an old-stock francophone Canadian.

These were not directly my parents though my mother's maiden name is "Asian". Not like Wang or Patel, but a name that is definitely of the Asian continent, and that would clearly stick out in a homogenous small town like the one they lived in.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Wait a minute. This was the point I made a few days ago, in light of my experience in Vancouver as a Chinese person, and you kind of brushed it off and said regardless there was still racism in Vancouver against Chinese people.

I’m pointing this out not because I want to gloat and have my post acknowledged, but because if you admit this is largely what’s happening, then is Vancouver society really systemically racist against Chinese people?

To me ethnic mixing - especially among the ruling classes - is basically the diametric opposite of racism any way you slice and dice it.

This isn't an either-or issue. Both can be true. We have systemic racial biases in different parts of society.

Why is ethnic mixing in the "ruling classes" more important?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, I am around 50 and am the descendant of an inter-racial marriage between an immigrant and an old-stock francophone Canadian.

These were not directly my parents though my mother's maiden name is "Asian". Not like Wang or Patel, but a name that is definitely of the Asian continent, and that would clearly stick out in a homogenous small town like the one they lived in.

This seems like it was uncommon but not that rare in Canada even back in the 1970's.

When I was in upper grades in the Halifax area in the early 2000's, most kids were white but there were probably on average 5 non-white kids per class and they all dated whoever (with groups being e.g. Lebanese, black, Vietnamese, Indian; conspicuously few Chinese there in those days but that has changed). I'd expect there to be a lot more non-white kids there today. Vancouver has bigger numbers of visible minorities but the fact is even 10% visible minority is a level where you really have to live under a rock to not constantly encounter people in that group.

In Canada there have always been murky boundaries between English, French, and native groups. Many who self-identify as African Nova Scotian going back hundreds of years are not 100% African ancestry.

It's often not possible to visually tell the difference between somebody who's Métis or just has a "generic" French Canadian background. Whether or not you have Métis or Indian status can come down to whether some ancestor lived in one town or another, not their genetic background. I would guess that French Canadians in general have a fairly high percentage of North American native ancestry (maybe even beyond Elizabeth Warren levels ). Many people have adopted ancestors so they don't know what their complete ancestry is.

I noticed with the Chantel Moore pictures that I'm not sure I could pick her out as being any different from the average Northern New Brunswicker.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

You grew up in Ontario. Context is everything.

There is a world of difference between the Chicago Blackhawks' depiction and the Cleveland Indians' depiction of Natives.

Redskins is incredibly offensive.

Though their numbers seem to be rapidly dwindling in our contemporary society, I think we SSPers often overlook how many people aren't easily offended, are easy-going or simply don't care.

And I don't necessarily think it's fair to judge them and accuse them of enabling racism against groups or even their own groups.

It's not cool to say so right now and while I won't say which ones, some of the controversies about this stuff are "much ado about nothing".

I can't say that as a kid I was offended by Blacque Jacque Schellacque, or that even clued in to what he represented. Even later when I realized what he was about, I didn't think of it as a big deal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI4fex06rc4

This does not bother me either:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwuDXXOyQUg

That doesn't mean I am indifferent to or even a traitor to the "cause". It just means I have bigger fish to fry.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I can't say that as a kid I was offended by Blacque Jacque Schellacque, or that even clued in to what he represented. Even later when I realized what he was about, I didn't think of it as a big deal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI4fex06rc4

This does not bother me either:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwuDXXOyQUg

That you think these are in the same league of discussion as Aunt Jemima says a lot. Yes, many of us, me included, didn't really know some of this history. Because a lot of it is specific to the US. But, once you know this history, it's also hard to look at the brand the same way.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That you think these are in the same league of discussion as Aunt Jemima says a lot. Yes, many of us, me included, didn't really know some of this history. Because a lot of it is specific to the US. But, once you know this history, it's also hard to look at the brand the same way.

French Canadians in the 1950's were an underprivileged minority group that was probably worse off than a lot of minorities in Canada today. The situation in Quebec wasn't that far off from a stereotypical banana republic where you have a poor majority class and then a separate privileged ruling class. Some Francophone representatives like the church had a seat at the table but that's exactly how it works in the banana republics.

I think it says something that there are a lot of self-identified woke Canadians who would rant about minstrel shows but to whom a Blacque Jacque Schellacque character wouldn't register as problematic. We all have our blind spots!

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That you think these are in the same league of discussion as Aunt Jemima says a lot. Yes, many of us, me included, didn't really know some of this history. Because a lot of it is specific to the US. But, once you know this history, it's also hard to look at the brand the same way.

Tons of old cartoons are cringeworthy now, on the level of blackface.

Just because a 6 year old doesn't see it, doesn't mean it's fine.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

This seems like it was uncommon but not that rare in Canada even back in the 1970's.

When I was in upper grades in the Halifax area in the early 2000's, most kids were white but there were probably on average 5 non-white kids per class and they all dated whoever (with groups being e.g. Lebanese, black, Vietnamese, Indian; conspicuously few Chinese there in those days but that has changed). I'd expect there to be a lot more non-white kids there today. Vancouver has bigger numbers of visible minorities but the fact is even 10% visible minority is a level where you really have to live under a rock to not constantly encounter people in that group.

In Canada there have always been murky boundaries between English, French, and native groups. Many who self-identify as African Nova Scotian going back hundreds of years are not 100% African ancestry.

It's often not possible to visually tell the difference between somebody who's Métis or just has a "generic" French Canadian background. Whether or not you have Métis or Indian status can come down to whether some ancestor lived in one town or another, not their genetic background. I would guess that French Canadians in general have a fairly high percentage of North American native ancestry (maybe even beyond Elizabeth Warren levels ). Many people have adopted ancestors so they don't know what their complete ancestry is.

I noticed with the Chantel Moore pictures that I'm not sure I could pick her out as being any different from the average Northern New Brunswicker.

Yeah, probably half the Québécois women I know here in Gatineau have similar features and skin tone. My wife (mostly French in origin but with a higher and generationally closer dose of indigenous genes than I) is actually a bit darker in skin tone than her.

I mentioned on here some years ago that Mordecai Richler's brother was my aunt's eye doctor some years ago. They got along well (joking around in French, which he did not get to use much) and one day he said: "Did you know you're indigenous, ma chère?." He proceeded to show her how there is a tell-tale shape in the eye - or in the vicinity of the eye, anyway - that only indigenous people of the Americas have.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by someone123

French Canadians in the 1950's were an underprivileged minority group that was probably worse off than a lot of minorities in Canada today. The situation in Quebec wasn't that far off from a stereotypical banana republic where you have a poor majority class and then a separate privileged ruling class.

I think it says something that there are a lot of self-identified woke Canadians who would rant about minstrel shows but to whom a Blacque Jacque Schellacque character wouldn't register as problematic.

Isn't that an apples and oranges comparison?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Isn't that an apples and oranges comparison?

Not at all.

Since we are in the habit of telling people to "listen to the experiences of others" I recommend listening to French Canadians, particularly of the aspiring professional class, talk about the 1950's and 60's, the period that led to the modern separatist movement.

I think it was actually worse for French Canadians in some ways because of the glass ceiling that was enforced through language. That history has a lot of relevance to indigenous issues today in Canada.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by someone123

Not at all.

Since we are in the habit of telling people to "listen to the experiences of others" I recommend listening to French Canadians, particularly of the aspiring professional class, talk about the 1950's and 60's, the period that led to the modern separatist movement.

I think it was actually worse for French Canadians in some ways because of the glass ceiling that was enforced through language.

But we are comparing Canada and the US.

I fully believe things were bad for French Canadians compared to other minorities in Canada. But you can't compare that to Jim Crow in the US.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Not at all.

Since we are in the habit of telling people to "listen to the experiences of others" I recommend listening to French Canadians, particularly of the aspiring professional class, talk about the 1950's and 60's, the period that led to the modern separatist movement.

I think it was actually worse for French Canadians in some ways because of the glass ceiling that was enforced through language. That history has a lot of relevance to indigenous issues today in Canada.

Personally I am not fighting that battle that much any more, but it must be intensely frustrating for them to have someone — up their narrative like you just did with your last few messages.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

But we are comparing Canada and the US.

I fully believe things were bad for French Canadians compared to other minorities in Canada. But you can't compare that to Jim Crow in the US.

Why are we talking about the US in the "not so great racism in Canada thread" in the Canada section?

I am saying woke Canadians will complain about Canada being racist (as you complain about Vancouver's ongoing systematic racism toward Asians) yet barely acknowledge anything with respect to French Canadians, or worse.