The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by lio45

The only reason the Sioux and Ojibwe were killing each other before the year 1492 was the toxic telepathic influence of Europeans across the North Atlantic, no question.

Yes, there is an element of SJW culture that naively acts as if white people created the evils of this world. In the same vein, there is a conservative element that downplays the fact that in general, white Europeans brought those ills to an unprecedented crescendo.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

The revolution started, in earnest, in the 1960s. I don't think people understand just how completely upside down our society is today compared to that which preceded the counterculture movements of the 1960s. Some of that change has been good, of course. Some of it, however, has had dire consequences on the quality of our lives.

Now we're adrift in this turbulent nightmare of a world. Up is down. Black is white. Men are women. Women are men. Words are violence.

All we can do is brace ourselves and wait for the storm to pass. The problem is that these squalls can last decades...

There must be an ultimate goal, a predominantly accepted state of realistically achievable morality, equality, harmony, and tolerance to work towards. Have we all yet agreed on what this is? It seems, our country has already identified this, yet we are just a link in a global society over which we have limited influence, and where what happens elsewhere invariably affects us.

[vid]

Originally Posted by lio45

The only reason the Sioux and Ojibwe were killing each other before the year 1492 was the toxic telepathic influence of Europeans across the North Atlantic, no question.

The main conflicts of theirs did occur before Europeans settled in the area, but it was instigated by European settlement in Eastern Canada pushing Ojibwe people into Sioux territory.

Where Thunder Bay is was originally settled by Sioux people, but you're not allowed to say that because... reasons... Same reason that the 9,000 year old artifacts are Ojibwe artifacts, and not, you know, whatever preceded them.

It's stupid but not as dumb as the — Israelis have been doing with some of the stuff they've "found" in parts of the West Bank. A lot of archeology is pretty bullshitty.

Anyway white people struggle to understand what equality is because they know that if they were in the position indigenous and black people find themselves in today they'd want revenge. You should be happy they're not hanging Karens in trees! American cops have killed 120 people since May 24th but that's none of my business.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

There must be an ultimate goal, a predominantly accepted state of realistically achievable morality, equality, harmony, and tolerance to work towards. Have we all yet agreed on what this is? It seems, our country has already identified this, yet we are just a link in a global society over which we have limited influence, and where what happens elsewhere invariably affects us.

In terms of acknowledging the issues that are most serious in this country, I am not really sure that we are that much further ahead than others.

And I include the U.S. in there BTW.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by Acajack

"Everyone in the world was getting along just great until those — Euros started leaving their tiny patch of land a couple hundred years ago."

I think this is a strawman. No serious person argues that colonialism caused all violence, strife or injustice in the world (and I don't recall anyone in this thread arguing this).

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

I think this is a strawman. No serious person argues that colonialism caused all violence, strife or injustice in the world (and I don't recall anyone in this thread arguing this).

There are definitely SJW arguments that verge on that. I haven’t seen anyone in this thread doing so, however.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

I think this is a strawman. No serious person argues that colonialism caused all violence, strife or injustice in the world (and I don't recall anyone in this thread arguing this).

dleung is pretty damn close.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In terms of acknowledging the issues that are most serious in this country, I am not really sure that we are that much further ahead than others.

And I include the U.S. in there BTW.

I think that the PM identifies these issues with practically every speech, that's not to say the issues have all been solved. Are you really going to compare a typical Trump address with that of Trudeau? American media and society typically approach these issues in panic and outrage mode, whereas we take a calmer, more intellectual and pragmatic approach.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Yes, there is an element of SJW culture that naively acts as if white people created the evils of this world. In the same vein, there is a conservative element that downplays the fact that in general, white Europeans brought those ills to an unprecedented crescendo.

So Tamerlane, Pol Pot, Nanking, the Huns... none of those ring a bell?

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

There are definitely SJW arguments that verge on that. I haven’t seen anyone in this thread doing so, however.

I suppose but those aren't serious arguments and shouldn't (in my view) be used to discredit or impugn serious arguments about systemic/institutional discrimination.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

I think that the PM identifies these issues with practically every speech, that's not to say the issues have all been solved. Are you really going to compare a typical Trump address with that of Trudeau? American media and society typically approach these issues in panic and outrage mode, whereas we take a calmer, more intellectual and pragmatic approach.

Totally agreed. But that's a bit different.

I'd say that in terms of the general population, Americans have as high or higher a degree of awareness of racism and policing issues involving the African-American community, compared to Canadians when it comes to our somewhat analogous issues with indigenous people (IMO our most serious issue of this nature).

In both countries, levels of recognition of the problem are variable. Plenty of Canadians deny there is a problem, or at least that it is as serious as it is.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

This thread is full of stubborn resistance to progress and change, a stubborn refusal to listen. The answers to your questions are out there. There are plenty of books to be read, podcasts to listen to, and social media accounts to follow. From an argumentative stance, someone may not be able to “change your mind”. Because you won’t let that happen. It’s your mind after all and you choose what you allow in. You can either keep pouting here where you have some like-minded souls to commiserate with or you can do the work of learning some new perspectives. It’s entirely up to you whether or not you do that. The consequences of not doing so, however, will put you further and further out of sync with the evolution of culture.

And yet... every single person on this thread agrees that George Floyd suffered an unacceptable, unlawful death. Every single person here agrees that policing needs some serious reforms when it comes to dealing with minorities - both in the U.S. and Canada.

But some people on here are behaving like half the posters think that George Floyd "had it coming to him".

Sorry, but if you* are looking for total unanimity on "abolish the police", "all white people are racist pieces of —" and "all cops are racist —", you're probably in the wrong forum. (Though those forums do exist.)

*Not necessarily you personally.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So Tamerlane, Pol Pot, Nanking, the Huns... none of those ring a bell?

Good point and some useful examples for when I’m confronted by left-wing extremists. That being said the extent of European dominance, self-centred greed, and brutality was unprecedented in terms of its global reach, to every habitable continent, etc.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And yet... every single person on this thread agrees that George Floyd suffered an unacceptable, unlawful death. Every single person here agrees that policing needs some serious reforms when it comes to dealing with minorities - both in the U.S. and Canada.

But some people on here are behaving like half the posters think that George Floyd "had it coming to him".

Sorry, but if you* are looking for total unanimity on "abolish the police", "all white people are racist pieces of —" and "all cops are racist —", you're probably in the wrong forum. (Though those forums do exist.)

*Not necessarily you personally.

I haven’t seen any conflict here around George Floyd’s situation, from either side, so I don’t think that those points are relevant.

There is resistance when it comes to discussions of systemic racism. There is a denial of the severity of the problem. That is the conflict I see.

If you aren’t a target of these problems, your point of view is not as valid as those who have lived through it. That’s just a basic reality.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

I haven’t seen any conflict here around George Floyd’s situation, from either side, so I don’t think that those points are relevant.

There is resistance when it comes to discussions of systemic racism. There is a denial of the severity of the problem. That is the conflict I see.

If you aren’t a target of these problems, your point of view is not as valid as those who have lived through it. That’s just a basic reality.

I went through a considerable amount of — when I was younger as the target of some pretty serious intimidation from a whole bunch of badass anglo kids simply because I was "French" (sic). It was so bad that the cops had to get involved. With preteen kids. As far as stuff like my parents' house and car getting vandalized. The principal and some teachers in the school I went to were even complicit in the whole thing.

Prejudice isn't always just about skin colour.

But thanks anyway for the lesson.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Good point and some useful examples for when I’m confronted by left-wing extremists. That being said the extent of European dominance, self-centred greed, and brutality was unprecedented in terms of its global reach, to every habitable continent, etc.

More related to relative technological advancement than collective character flaws IMO.

Hopefully no one here believes for a minute that any other populations would have acted much differently, given the same circumstances.

[Rollerstud98]

Originally Posted by vid

American cops have killed 120 people since May 24th but that's none of my business.

Do you have the stats on this? I was wondering how many people are killed by police down there each year.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I went through a considerable amount of — when I was younger as the target of some pretty serious intimidation from a whole bunch of badass anglo kids simply because I was "French" (sic). It was so bad that the cops had to get involved. With preteen kids. As far as stuff like my parents' house and car getting vandalized. The principal and some teachers in the school I went to were even complicit in the whole thing.

Prejudice isn't always just about skin colour.

But thanks anyway for the lesson.

True, but that doesn’t mean you’re an expert in other people’s experiences.

I’m gay and lived through times when that really sucked. But I’m not black so I listen to black Canadians when they talk about their experiences. This goes for all people. I need to listen in order to learn because my experience is naturally limited.

[Acajack]

For those who can understand French...

An interesting film I saw at my local film festival a few years ago.

The year is 2030. Europe is in the dumpster and Africa is the richest region in the world.

White Europeans desperate to survive flock to Africa in search of work and a better life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCP_XhTEcPY

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

True, but that doesn’t mean you’re an expert in other people’s experiences.

I’m gay and lived through times when that really sucked. But I’m not black so I listen to black Canadians when they talk about their experiences. This goes for all people. I need to listen in order to learn because my experience is naturally limited.

I do listen to black, indigenous and other minority voices. And not just those in the streets BTW.