Green Line LRT - $4.6 Billion Project

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

McKendrick mentions that the underground stations will be difficult to access. Hmm, are underground stations in London or NYC difficult to access? No, because they have escalators and lifts!

Then he goes on to chastise the decision to leave the Center Street portion on the surface saying that it will be inconvenient and restrictive. So what would he suggest there? Tunnels/underground stations? So he kind of contradicts himself.

I don't think he's against cut and cover tunnels.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by CTrainDude

Not to mention the fact that McKendrick is saying what a bad idea deep tunnels are - when the deep tunnels were scrapped three years ago. It’s great that he had 35 years experience as a planner with CT - but that also means he started work in the late 1970’s (he’s been retired about 5 years) - technology and planning has changed since then. He just strikes me now as an old guy frozen in time.

How much has planning and technology changed in the last five years?

[CTrainDude]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

How much has planning and technology changed in the last five years?

He was outdated before he left. Anyone advocating for high-floor trains for Green line obviously has no understanding of the current state of LRV offerings or suppliers, or even the extra cost and impact high-floor stations have. If he wants to pretend he’s some sort of ultra-experienced expert, maybe he should be part of a group that isn’t recommending technology from 1975.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by CTrainDude

He was outdated before he left. Anyone advocating for high-floor trains for Green line obviously has no understanding of the current state of LRV offerings or suppliers, or even the extra cost and impact high-floor stations have. If he wants to pretend he’s some sort of ultra-experienced expert, maybe he should be part of a group that isn’t recommending technology from 1975.

Where was the uproar when the West leg was built? People, including on this forum, were praising how great things were going to be and cool the cars looked. That was only a decade ago so I doubt things have changed that much. Compared to what's currently being proposed for the Green Line the West leg is a planning masterpiece.

[CTrainDude]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Where was the uproar when the West leg was built? People, including on this forum, were praising how great things were going to be and cool the cars looked. That was only a decade ago so I doubt things have changed that much. Compared to what's currently being proposed for the Green Line the West leg is a planning masterpiece.

The West line was an extension of the existing system, so there was no choice but to match the existing system, running the exact same vehicles that ran everywhere else - the new Mask LRVs were still 5 years away when the west opened, so weren’t even in the conversation.
The Green line is a completely separate line, so why would it use outdated technology from the beginning?

[lucx]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Where was the uproar when the West leg was built? People, including on this forum, were praising how great things were going to be and cool the cars looked.

Were you outraged the NE extension of the West Line used high-floor cars too?

Edit: I don't understand the significance of the use-the-same-LRV argument. We already have 3 completely different models that don't run together or share parts (4 if you consider the Series 8 trains). The savings will be negligible.

[lucx]

Sean Chu and Diane Colley Urquhart announced support of the Green Line via Twitter so it's looking good for the Stage 1 plan.

Carra yes
Chahal yes
Chu yes
Colley-Urquhart yes
Farrell yes
Keating yes
Nenshi yes
Wolley yes

[PPAR]

So it looks like it will be a 8 to 7 vote in favour.

Trust me, once politicians see that something they are on the fence about is going to pass, self interest dictates they vote against. That way they avoid all blame for future problems, while not having to take heat for killing something.

[CTrainDude]

Based on his statements, I think you can pretty safely put Ray Jones in the yes pile too - he says he’s waiting to decide, but reading between the lines, he’ll be yes. I’m guessing 9-6.

https://livewirecalgary.com/2020/06/09/c...ing-vote-coun-ray-jones-down-the-middle/

[outoftheice]

I'm going to put my prediction for a 10-5 vote. We are sure to see some amendments to the Administration recommendations but the key pieces that will be agreed to are an approval of 16th Ave to Shepard as the Stage 1 plan and an approval of Administration to proceed to procurement on the whole thing when they see fit. Given that, my predicted vote breakdown is:

YES - Nenshi, Gondek, Chu, Chahal, Jones, Woolley, Farrell, Carra, Demong and Keating

NO - Magliocca, Sutherland, Farkas, Davison and Colley-Urquhart

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by lucx

Sean Chu and Diane Colley Urquhart announced support of the Green Line via Twitter so it's looking good for the Stage 1 plan.

Carra yes
Chahal yes
Chu yes
Colley-Urquhart yes
Farrell yes
Keating yes
Nenshi yes
Wolley yes

I saw Sean's tweet yesterday and was really surprised that he supports the current plan.

[Socguy]

Originally Posted by CTrainDude

He was outdated before he left. Anyone advocating for high-floor trains for Green line obviously has no understanding of the current state of LRV offerings or suppliers, or even the extra cost and impact high-floor stations have. If he wants to pretend he’s some sort of ultra-experienced expert, maybe he should be part of a group that isn’t recommending technology from 1975.

While it very well may be the case that low-floor is the better, cheaper technology these days, sticking with the old style vehicles might allow the city to expand the existing maintenance facilities rather than be forced to build the south leg first, since that's where the new barn would need to be. Instead they can get the north leg/downtown right and only proceeded south when ridership justifies it. Or not. Watching how borked this entire green line debacle has become is very disheartening.

[Pegasus]

Originally Posted by lucx

It's a bridge to north Calgary, hardly nowhere. This isn't a particularly winning argument.

A lot of commenters in this thread seem to think building to 16th Avenue N is not cost effective (based on anticipated usage) and is merely a pre-build for future expansion.

[Pegasus]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The economy doesn't effect city taxes. The economy only effects individuals perceptions of city taxes.

Tell that to municipal and provincial tax payers when property taxes go up or the province starts tearing down hospitals again. (We've been here before!). "It's just a perception"?

[lucx]

Originally Posted by Socguy

sticking with the old style vehicles might allow the city to expand the existing maintenance facilities rather than be forced to build the south leg first, since that's where the new barn would need to be.(

Not sure how they would connect the North to the existing maintenance facilities.

Originally Posted by Pegasus

A lot of commenters in this thread seem to think building to 16th Avenue N is not cost effective (based on anticipated usage) and is merely a pre-build for future expansion.

Future expansion is the point. Stopping at Eau Claire saves ~$400 million, not enough to get to the Hospital. There's more boardings at 16 Ave than extending to Mackenzie Towne. People may choose to be skeptical at these numbers, but I haven't seen any stats that say otherwise.

[Pegasus]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The country has less relative debt today than it had a decade ago. The province has the least amount of debt compared to all other provinces.

You may well be correct based on 2019 year-end figures. However we are in the middle of the worse recession in the province's/country's history - no one yet knows what the final impact will be - financial or otherwise. Nor does anyone know when it will end.

[Pegasus]

Originally Posted by lucx

Future expansion is the point. Stopping at Eau Claire saves ~$400 million, not enough to get to the Hospital. There's more boardings at 16 Ave than extending to Mackenzie Towne. People may choose to be skeptical at these numbers, but I haven't seen any stats that say otherwise.

I assume the 4,000 - 5,000 estimate for 16th Avenue N is based on the final build (to North Point and Seton) and not just traffic to/from downtown and Shepard? If so this may be an overly optimistic number pre-future expansion, especially if the BRT runs down Centre Street.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

I assume the 4,000 - 5,000 estimate for 16th Avenue N is based on the final build (to North Point and Seton) and not just traffic to/from downtown and Shepard? If so this may be an overly optimistic number pre-future expansion, especially if the BRT runs down Centre Street.

The 4-5K numbers are from current bus ridership, they're actually expecting upwards of 11K trips at 16th Ave Station from the start:



I'm not sure if they will get that number, but without it the ridership/$ of capital spending and $ of operation costs of Stage 1 starts to look quite poor, especially now that they've gone from the original opening day ridership projection of 60-65K/day to 55-65K/day.

[lucx]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Tell that to municipal and provincial tax payers when property taxes go up or the province starts tearing down hospitals again. (We've been here before!). "It's just a perception"?

There's enough council support to build the Green Line whether it's to Downtown or 16 Ave. Tax money will be spent either way.

If Council listened to Facebook comments and decided to CANCEL THE LINE!, there's plenty of other transit projects that Ottawa will eagerly reallocate the $1.5 billion to. As for the province, Edmonton has their Valley West line that needs funding if Calgary decides to nope out. Lastly, the City will go back to the original plan and build the SE Transitway. Canceling Green Line is a lose-lose-lose.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

You may well be correct based on 2019 year-end figures. However we are in the middle of the worse recession in the province's/country's history - no one yet knows what the final impact will be - financial or otherwise. Nor does anyone know when it will end.

So? Presuming everyone is effected relatively the same, a better position going in means a better position on the way out.