Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[Always Sunny in SLC]

Which one do you prefer? I prefer the Eastern LRT alignment. I previously favored the Western BRT, but realized that will be way too slow for someone wanting to travel from the North to the Prison Site let alone all the way to Lehi and beyond. The Eastern LRT doesn't require changing to BRT in Draper and leaves open the chance for BRT to be used to complete a loop on the Northern end connecting the mall and businesses West of I-15.

Don't forget to provide your feedback!

https://rideuta.com/About-UTA/Active...tive-Corridors

[Makid]

I prefer the East LRT alignment. I don't like the stubbed line into the prison redevelopment area though.

I think the stub should be dropped until the Red line is extended to the area. The money from the stub would be better spent on extending the Blue line further south or enhancing local buses to make the connections.

I think the stub itself is close to $500 Million. That is enough to extend the line to American Fork and provide some additional local buses to the prison redevelopment area. The northern area, Sandy and South Jordan, should be funded by the 2 cities. They both want a transit loop between Trax and FrontRunner but neither wants to fund it. Both cities have extra funds from the Prop 1 sales tax that they could use a portion of for transit rather than using it all on roads.

I think Draper should also need to direct funding from the prop 1 sales tax to transit service through the prison redevelopment area. The State can provide the majority of the funding for the East LRT alignment through to Lehi to settle their deal with Adobe. Utah County, Lehi and American Fork could offer up additional funding to help get the rest of the extension built.

If they only want Trax into Lehi and not further south for now, use the extra $500 Million from the Stub to double track some of the harder sections of FrontRunner. This would be a better way for the State to help fund transit rather than spending the money on the stub.

[Hatman]

So long as we're all singing the same tune, I will join in too.

East LRT! BRT to connect the East LRT to FrontRunner via the Prison site! Hurrah!

Here's a post I made a long time ago with some math in it, supporting the east LRT option:

Let's look at the R Line in Denver. This LRT route is parallel to a freeway for its entire route. Much of its route is within a freeway median or freeway ROW. Some of it is on surface streets in Aurora. Basically, it's a pretty good picture of what the West option for this TRAX extension could be, since there would be a surface-street section in Sandy and then a freeway portion through draper.

The R-Line is 10.5 miles long, and a trip from one end to the other takes about 1 hour. This makes the calculation easy - the R-Line runs at an average speed of 10.5 miles per hour.

Let's compare this to the Draper Extension for TRAX opened in 2013, since the East option would be a continuation of that extension in the same ROW with the same conditions (exclusive ROW, broad curves for high-speed running, etc). The Draper extension is 3.5 miles long and it takes trains 7 minutes to run that length.

(3.5 miles / 7 minutes)*(60 minutes / 1 hour) = 30 miles per hour average running speed.

I think these numbers speak for themselves pretty well. TRAX trains will run faster when they operate as trains along old train routes. I don't know what the exact design of the West option will be, but I'm fairly confident that the fastest way to get to the prison site by transit will be by building the TRAX east option, then having a frequent bus shuttle between the future TRAX highland station and the Draper FrontRunner station (and hopefully beyond!).

Perhaps the prison site is so lucrative that it will justify rerouting the entire TRAX line to serve all the super-high density office space that will go up there. My guess is that the site will be filled with more of the same kind of medium-sized office parks surrounded by enormous parking lots, and I do not think it will be worth rerouting an important inter-county rail line for the sake of sprawling office space.

That was on page 405... back in January last year. My how time flies.

[Hatman]

It must be public comment season, because there is another project asking for input:

Salt Lake City to Reconstruct 200 South Downtown
KSL article link: https://www.ksl.com/article/46755384...south-downtown

Project website: https://www.slc.gov/mystreet/2020/03...corridor-plan/

My opinion, copied from the main SLC thread: https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...=1#post8928593

I searched through that website to try and find any concrete proposals, but all of it seems to be aspiration. That's fine, the project isn't going to start for 2 more years, but if you're going to propose a bunch of stuff to the public, I thought you would want to have a purpose/need you want to fulfill. (I'm talking specifically about the transit center - they don't even know where they want it, which is super weird.)

I like the idea of floating bus stops and buffered bike lanes. I don't think we need a full "Bus Only" lane, since we still want local and express buses. Buses stopping in the travel lane would be a huge improvement on its own, and the bus priority signals would be super next-level without the need for bus only lanes:
• Video Link
(youtube video from the website)

The video shows a bus in a bus -only lane getting priority through an intersection into a shared lane. This would also work just fine with a BAT lane (Bus And Turn lane). The bus would get into the right turn lane. The cars ahead of it in the lane would turn right on red, leaving the bus at the front of the line. If the bus wasn't in the front of the line, a green arrow for right would also be used at the same time as the bus priority light. That way the bus can get around stopped cars. It would also be the ideal place to put a sheltered bus stop, since the right turn lane is close to the curb and wouldn't take up any extra parking spots.

[SLCPolitico]

Interim sessions of the Utah Legislature start next week and they've released the list of potential study items for each committee. For the Transportation Committee, there's a study item regarding replacing Frontrunner (yes, all of Frontrunner) with BRT???

Front Runner upgrades: study in conjunction with Utah Transit Authority comparing the total costs, and costs per commuter and comparative travel times over the long term of double tracking and electrifying the current system compared to those same costs for changing the train system out and replacing it with bus rapid transit running along the same line.

Potential Interim Study Items 2020

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by SLCPolitico

Interim sessions of the Utah Legislature start next week and they've released the list of potential study items for each committee. For the Transportation Committee, there's a study item regarding replacing Frontrunner (yes, all of Frontrunner) with BRT???

Potential Interim Study Items 2020

Correct me if I'm wrong, but BRT doesn't really fulfill the same role as commuter rail. Why would this even be under consideration?

Double-tracking the FrontRunner seems like a no-brainer to me.

[Hatman]

Front Runner upgrades: study in conjunction with Utah Transit Authority comparing the total costs, and costs per commuter and comparative travel times over the long term of double tracking and electrifying the current system compared to those same costs for changing the train system out and replacing it with bus rapid transit running along the same line.

Potential Interim Study Items 2020

[bob rulz]

Originally Posted by SLCPolitico

Interim sessions of the Utah Legislature start next week and they've released the list of potential study items for each committee. For the Transportation Committee, there's a study item regarding replacing Frontrunner (yes, all of Frontrunner) with BRT???

Potential Interim Study Items 2020

Excuse me, what?

I hope this idea is laughed out of the building and never even considered.

[Makid]

The speed and efficiency that can be gained with a double tracked and electrified FrontRunner cannot be replaced with BRT.

Standard flow for transit:

Local Route (City)
Bus
BRT
Streetcar/LRT
Subway

Small Regional Route (County)
Bus
Express Bus
BRT
LRT

Large Regional Route (Multi-County)
Express Bus
LRT
Commuter Rail

Very Large Regional Route (Inter-State)
Express Bus
Commuter Rail
HSR

In no situation that I am aware of has BRT ever replaced an operational LRT or Commuter Rail line, ever.

The costs of a full length, bi-directional BRT line from Brigham City to Payson, even using the existing FrontRunner ROW would be close to $2.5 Billion to construct.

To double track and electrify FrontRunner would be approximately $2 Billion, IIR.

So in initial costs, it is cheaper to double track and electrify FrontRunner. It would also be cheaper to operate FrontRunner than BRT. While, ideally you could use driverless trains vs driverless buses for the route, that just isn't going to happen today. With FrontRunner having been operating at Standing Room Only for the past year multiple times each day, it would take 4 to 5 times the operators and buses to equal what rail can move. This gets even more out of scale when you can add a car to the FrontRunner train to move more people where for BRT you need another bus and driver.

Lastly, there is the ability to expand and enhance the routes. FrontRunner could be expanded down to Nephi, Fillmore, Moab, and even St. George if there was a need or desire. FrontRunner would also be able to move trains at 90 MPH with just double tracking. It would require minimal upgrades to reach maximum speeds of 110 MPH once electrified. BRT tops out at what 75 MPH maybe? This is still slower than the current max speed of 79 MPH for FrontRunner today.

It is sad that this ever needed to be a thought that someone wanted to discuss.

I will say though that as part of the States COVID 3.0 process, there will be State bonding for construction ready projects. I have heard previously that at least double tracking FrontRunner was in the top 5 infrastructure projects along the Wasatch Front. To my knowledge, the only thing needed to begin double tracking FrontRunner is funding. All the environmental work has been done previously.

----
There are also 2 items that are on the Interim Study list that are of interest:

Amount and use of recently imposed second, third and fourth quarters by UTA and other transit districts.
Probable use of 5th quarter by transit districts, if imposed.

It looks like they are looking at more information for the additional 0.25% Sales Tax increase. I know that Salt Lake, Davis, Weber, and Tooele Counties are all able to access the additional sales tax increase starting in 2022 with just a County Council approval. I am not sure if Utah County has enacted all of the increases or not.

This additional sales tax increase has been eyed up by some members of the State Legislature as a way to pay for the Trax extension to Utah County and the double tracking and electrification of FrontRunner.

[RC14]

I also prefer the Eastern alignment for a Lehi TRAX extension. The western alignment would compromise the whole system for the sake of the prison site. A BRT line or perhaps a future extension of the Red line through Herriman would serve the Prison site just fine.

[bob rulz]

The east route is certainly better, but let's be real, the big developer money available for the prison site means the west line is going to win out.

[Hatman]

The Stadler assembly facility now has an electrified test track!

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger...nset-on-track/

Some pictures of the Caltrain double-decker EMU's bound for San Francisco, sitting on the test track. These trains are the same sort of rolling stock UTA is interested in using on an electrified FrontRunner, and the test track itself sits right along the alignment I laid out for the East-West commuter rail line between Salt Lake City and Tooele (see my sig line below). So who knows? Maybe one day we'll get the same picture of a red, white, and blue UTA electric EMU traveling this same line full of happy commuters!





Also, Trump tweeted about the Ogden BRT project today. The funding is old news. I have no idea why he is interested in this project now.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...31862633811968

[Hatman]

UTA recovered from the protets/riots/unrest pretty quickly. The police didn't clear the area until late Saturday night, but, Red Line trains were already running Sunday Morning, and at noon the Library Station - which had been heavily vandalized (paint, smashing glass, etc) - was reopened.
https://twitter.com/RideUTA/status/1267154042947604481
During the protests, all TRAX service north of Central Point (21st south) was suspended, and a lot of bus service was also affected. This was amazingly disrupting for many people who had to work on Saturday - for instance, all the healthcare workers at the hospitals. The Red Line goes to the medical center after all, and I heard that a lot of care workers had trouble getting to their shifts. And all this while daily new coronavirus cases are rising again.

If 2020 has taught us one thing, it should be how interconnected everything is. Shutting down even certain parts of the economy is hugely damaging. Viruses can be spread very far very fast as people interact. Protesting in one place can be deadly for people downstream on the transit line you are blocking.
It's a good reminder for all of us who draw transit lines on maps for a living or for fun - or for anyone really. There are a massive amount of variables and considerations at play, and even potentially small shifts can mean stepping on other people's toes in very harmful/unfair ways.

[RC14]

There is Amtrak train stuck in Utah County since last night.
https://www.ksl.com/article/46762033...saturday-night

[Makid]

Feds award UTA grants to study expanding TRAX and FrontRunner

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics...rd-uta-grants/

The Utah Transit Authority won two federal grants Thursday to help it study a proposed $1 billion-plus expansion of TRAX to Utah County through the soon-to-be-redeveloped Utah State Prison site, and a possible expansion of FrontRunner commuter rail from Provo to Payson.

The Federal Transit Administration announced a $275,000 grant for the TRAX study, and $250,000 to help with the FrontRunner evaluation.

“We are proud to support our local partners as they plan for transit-oriented development that better connects residents to jobs, education and services,” said K. Jane Williams, acting FTA administrator, as she announced grants to 23 agencies nationally. “This funding will help improve the quality of life of riders in communities across America.”

The grants are designed to help plan projects that improve access to transit, encourage ridership and spur economic and mixed-use development.

The UTA board last year awarded a contract for up to $800,000 to Parametrix to perform a feasibility study on whether the TRAX extension or alternates are affordable and desirable and where the best route should be.

The study comes despite promises by UTA in recent years that it would focus its resources in the foreseeable future on expanding its neighborhood bus service rather than building more train extensions — which over time created $2 billion in debt for the agency.

However, the state-sponsored Point of the Mountain Commission last year started pressing for a TRAX extension through the prison site, saying redeveloping that area could generate billions in revenue throughout the Wasatch Front “if the right steps are taken,” including building the proposed TRAX extension.

[Hatman]

I would like to provide everyone with an update to my Rio Grande Depot plans.

The latest change this time has been the addition of another track in the trench. My previous proposal was for 5: four for UTA and one for Amtrak. I left the Union Pacific freight tracks on the surface, since I did not think the grades would work out for getting the tracks down 33 feet. But I have since done more research on railroad trenches, and I feel confident that it can be done.
One last issue was an appartment building that was constructed west of the gateway, right on top of the old railroad ROW. Perhaps it is possible to save this building by boring a tunnel underneath it, but I doubt it would be worth the expense. Still, I believe the benefit of removing ALL tracks from the surface in downtown Salt Lake City to be worth the cost of 1 apartment building, if needs be.

New Plan:
Remove all surface tracks. Route freight trains through the trench as well. 4 tracks for UTA, 2 tracks for the Union Pacific Railroad and Amtrak trains.
Drawings:

This cross section shows that the trench will be separated into two segments, with a pier in the middle. This pier will also shorten the length of the girders on top, reducing their depth and cost. Because the trench is so much wider, I used the extra space for a raised cycle lane, which would be new in Salt Lake City.

This second cross section shows what happens between girders. There will be space for ventilation shafts and light post foundations.

This cross section of 500 West lasts approximately 4,500 feet, from 400 South to just beyond 900 South.


I haven't messed with my cross section of the station, but I will likely have to give more space to the UP tracks, since those will now be the railroad's only tracks through the city. This does mean that Amtrak trains will not be able to layover at Salt Lake City for very long - their stops would have to be limited to a few minutes in order to clear the line again. Currently, Amtrak trains spend an hour in SLC to refuel and change crews. I suggest rerouting the California Zephyr to go through Ogden before turning west (across the Great Salt Lake). Refueling and crew changing can be done in Ogden.


A profile image of the station platforms, to better illustrate how passengers would move between the ground level of the depot and the subterranean tracks.


A Plan View of the depot. Mostly unchanged from before, but now with Labels.


The north end of the trench. There are now two curves west - one for the Tooele commuter rail tracks, which were there previously, and the Union Pacific track, which is new. As you can see, there is one apartment building that has a corner in the way. I don't know what will be done about that.
As you can see, there is a lot of black masking where tracks will be removed. All of that land will be able to be redeveloped, and there will no longer be barriers between the east and west sides of town (except I-15!).
Also not the addition of the 600 west viaduct. The railroad tracks there cannot be put into a trench, as they are part of the transcontinental east-west mainline, unlike the north-south tracks through SLC, which are a secondary line.


The south end of the trench. I still show the 900 South freeway exit being diverted to 500 West, since I think it will be critical to have Express Buses from all over the valley exit at the 900 South exit, then use 500 West as the arterial to get to the Rio Grande depot. That will help the corridor develop as a major street in SLC.
I had to do more tricky stuff to get 6 tracks under the existing I-15 bridge, but it works. Furthermore, since there are no tracks to the west of the industrial properties, it makes access very easy.

This will be expensive, or course, but with a single project, it will be possible to completely change SLC's west side. Railroad crossings at 200 South, 800 South, and 900 South will be completely eliminated. The 400 South viaduct can be replaced with a (flat) surface street, which will be super beneficial to bikes and pedestrians. The freeway viaducts at 500 and 600 south will be able to tie-in by 600 west instead of 500 west. In the case of 500 S westbound-to-northbound, the ramp can tie in by 700 West. Imagine that - 700 West being a viable downtown street!

Most importantly: If you have suggestions, concerns, or if you see typos or obviously incorrect information, please let me know. I will keep working on this plan until I am completely happy with it, and feedback can only help.

Thanks, everyone!

[ChickenBurgers]

Thank you for the update Hatman! I can't even begin to imagine how much research and thought has gone into this and will continue to go into it. I just have some comments and questions on a few specific parts.

For the 'Open for Redevelopment' parcel at 700 West and 200 South there's a minor typo that says the street is 700 East. Then you may be aware of this already but that same parcel also currently has plans for a 3 story self storage facility that will use 700 West. So I would suggest adding in a note that it may need to be displaced similar to Univar.

Also (and this may just be my own ignorance) how will the new east/west LRT tracks fit into the overall Trax system? Will they be independent of the main lines or form multiple loops just within the downtown area? Overall though I think it's a plan that is definitely worth sharing and I really hope sees the light of day in its entirety someday.

[Hatman]

Oops, ha ha, I haven't updated my GoogleMap yet. That's embarrassing. I'll get on that asap. Thanks for the information about 700 West 200 South - I'll leave that spot blank for now.

As for the East-West TRAX lines through downtown, my intent is to change the TRAX network from a series of lines 'through' downtown (Green goes from West Valley to the airport via downtown, the Red line goes from DayBreak to the University via downtown, etc ) into a network of lines 'around' downtown, via the loop. The University Line would start at the U, go to downtown, run around the loop, then return to the U. The Airport Line would start at the airport, go around the downtown loop, then return. This would make service to all 5 TRAX end-points (I am erasing the 6th, which is the Intermodal Hub) independent of each other. This adds capacity to the lines, it adds fluidity to the system, and it means a level of service around the downtown loops that would be EPIC.

The loop comprises the following streets:

• Main Street
• South Temple
• 4th West (with a short 2-block detour to Rio Grande street)
• 7th South.

All trains entering downtown from the suburbs will go around this loop before returning to their points of origin. Initially, while trains are still operated by humans, certain colors will go in certain directions. The Airport line should go clockwise, the Draper line should go counter-clockwise, etc.
After TRAX cars become self-driving (meaning each car in a train can separate from that train and take a new route at any time), the train will divide and go in both directions.

I drew in 2 other East-West lines on my map, at 200 South and 400 South. My intention is to have two downtown circulator routes that will just run in circles all day.
Circulator 1:

• Main Street, from 400 South to South Temple
• South Temple
• 400 West+Rio Grande street, from South Temple to 400 South.
• 400 South, from Rio Grande street to Main Street.

Circulator 2:

• Main Street, from 700 South to 200 South
• 200 South, from Main Street to Rio Grande Street
• Rio Grande Street+400 West, from 200 South to 700 South
• 700 South, from 400 West to Main Street.

These 2 circulators would mainly serve to move passengers arriving at the Rio Grande depot into their desired corner of downtown much more quickly than by going around the entire loop.

Most of this is based on Chicago's L (elevated trains) which circle around a downtown loop of their own. The loop in Chicago is not as large as the one proposed in Salt Lake City; if their loop was overlaid on our grid, it would be about the size of Circulator 1. That's why I feel the need to have 2 circulator routes instead of one big one. It's important to make these things "human-scale," whenever possible.

Thanks for your question!

[ucsbgaucho]

saw this interesting load heading over Parleys Summit down into Salt Lake City this afternoon.

[Old&New]

I wish that were heading over Parley's Summit on rail!!