The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

Not sure what you mean?

Programming is not the be all end all for intelligence.

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

https://thetab.com/us/2017/04/10/which-major-has-highest-iq-64811

I suggest looking into something like this.

IQ is very visible when you know what to look for.

EDIT: No the data isn't perfect but I'm sure you can imagine teh trend.

Doing calc is hard, performance in that course alone can tell you a lot about society.

That list of majors and IQs tells me very little about anything. I have no idea what you are trying to prove.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

Not being a genius doesn't mean you're not privileged.

As far as being privileged...

I come from a stable household (elderly parents still together today) that was middle middle class. Only one of my parents has a high school degree. Out of my grandparents I think probably none of them even finished elementary school.

My parents were very education-oriented and quite smart but their lack of higher level education sometimes limited how much they could help my siblings and I with our homework. That said, my parent who did not graduate high school did tutor my (future) wife in her accounting courses when she was doing her master's!

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As far as being privileged...

I come from a stable household (elderly parents still together today) that was middle middle class. Only one of my parents has a high school degree. Out of my grandparents I think probably none of them even finished elementary school.

My parents were very education-oriented and quite smart but their lack of higher level education sometimes limited how much they could help my siblings and I with our homework. That said, my parent who did not graduate high school did tutor my (future) wife in her accounting courses when she was doing her master's!

I never said in background, you're a doctor aren't you? One way or another what ever's between your ears is high functioning.

The point I'm making is that you'd have no reason to benefit from knowing your cognitive status.

When you're at the opposite end of things information is everything. Spinning your wheels isn't just frustrating it is a destroyer of lives.

You can't account for something if you aren't aware it exists.

FYI you might want ot be very careful with what I'm saying.

I'm autistic and have been around mostly autistic people for quite some time.

The stats are pretty dam abysmal even when accounting for IQ.

High rates of depression, anxiety and suicide. High rates of underemployment. A very high number of men who are single.(Hypergamy is a very real thing in the autistic community).

And I'm not even talking about the people who talk etc.

Just the regular "mildly" autistic types.

But that doesn't mean autistics have a special status of victimhood(I despise that word).

If you have an IQ sub 95 you have similar outcomes.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

I never said in background, you're a doctor aren't you? One way or another what ever's between your ears is high functioning.

No, I am not a doctor.

I doubt anyone would want me as their doctor!

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Programming is not the be all end all for intelligence.



That list of majors and IQs tells me very little about anything. I have no idea what you are trying to prove.

That work and society is intensely segmented by intelligence.

Being rich isn't everything, but neither is inequality.

The trick to living a good life is to avoid emulating people who have nothing in common with yourself.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

No, I am not a doctor.

I doubt anyone would want me as their doctor!

Oh christ I was mixing you up with Moncton Rad.


All the same you occupy a high place in the government?

EDIT:

I thought you were following this quote.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Absolutely. Thanks for providing a good example.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though presumably people would do the IQ test in their native language, or at least the one they are most comfortable in.

That of course doesn't mean that there aren't biases in the test (cultural or otherwise) regarding what constitutes intelligence.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

That work and society is intensely segmented by intelligence.

Being rich isn't everything, but neither is inequality.

The trick to living a good life is to avoid emulating people who have nothing in common with yourself.

What a weird thing to say.

[MolsonExport]

Further engagement is pointless, as the thread has become

usatoday

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

Oh christ I was mixing you up with Moncton Rad.


All the same you occupy a high place in the government?

EDIT:

I thought you were following this quote.

No worries.

I don't mean to be cagey, but I don't think I have ever said on here that I work for the government. A lot of people make that assumption based on where I live.

But sure I am in an enviable professional position and earn a salary in the six figures.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What a weird thing to say.

Weird? it is what it is. We compete with our peers to attain status.

We use them as role models for how and what to do in our life.


We do it so often we don't even realize it.

Danger is when you compare to people who's cognitive factors are not your own.


I.e. all those people who have cars and homes they can't afford.

They are emulating people that they cannot compete with.

As a result they get trapped in endless debt.

At the other end lower income communities suffer as mid tier people are fleeing pursuit of an upper class lifestyle.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Chinese person who lived in Vancouver for 7 years here.

Not only did I not experience any racism, but I observed this big transformation going on where upper and upper middle class white people would often marry, and have children with, Chinese Canadians like me. So, at the very least, in 30-40 years, a lot of people who will run British Columbia will be of some Chinese ancestry and visibly quite Chinese. This is already kind of happening.

I'm not Chinese but the people I interact with day-to-day are probably 30-50% Asian. This includes neighbours, coworkers, friends, etc. My middle class neighbourhood is probably minority white and most businesses are Asian. It's not something I think about a whole lot because it's just a part of what Vancouver's been within living memory (e.g. T&T or H-Mart are not exotic field trips, to come up with one trivial example). In my friend group at one point, I'd guess that 1/3-1/2 of the couples consisted of 1 white person plus 1 Asian person including a few North American born people who lived in China for a while.

I won't pretend my little bubble is universal but within that bubble there's a lot of integration and I've never seen a public event like a crackhead pushing over an old lady or yelling racial slurs (I probably would see that from time to time if I lived in the DTES). Even though Vancouver is not perfect, I have trouble seeing this place as xenophobic and hate-filled.

And the thing about being on the receiving end of racism is that the “victim” has to always consider the social position of the person doing the offending.

The people who yell out racist slurs at Chinese people tend to be in a lower socioeconomic position than the Chinese people they’re trying to offend. Who’s actually losing in this case? If a crackhead on Hastings starts yelling at me on the bus, is he actually thwarting my ability to get a mortgage, or advance my career or raise a child who could become Chief Justice some day?

The way racism is talked about in the abstract in Canada (typically by older white people, with JT being at the younger end of that) has an antique feel to me. It's hard to address this without being accused of "minimizing racism". I am not denying anybody's experiences; in fact I am talking about people who don't see themselves as directly affected.

Racism has moved down the socioeconomic ladder over time. In the 1970's a businessman might have made a gross racist remark and gotten a chuckle from his colleagues but these days the average middle class urban Canadian finds racist comments cringe-worthy. Meanwhile people who are ethnically Chinese are of course full participants in society in Vancouver. It seems kind of patronizing to me to portray them as, on the whole, being a vulnerable victim-group that's at the mercy of crackheads on Hastings. Your Chief Justice comment made me think about that. At what point does the focus on vulnerability and victimization itself become a kind of stereotype?

I wonder how much of this view of racism has to do with the US and the presence of people like Donald Trump in the media. Or people simply remembering how things were in a different time and place.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

Weird? it is what it is. We compete with our peers to attain status.

We use them as role models for how and what to do in our life.

By using your peers as role models you're limiting your potential.

There's a huge difference between trying to follow the path of somebody successful vs. "keeping up with the Jones'" as you allude to.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Further engagement is pointless, as the thread has become

usatoday

I've presented my viewpoint, I think it stands on its own.


You have people who are advocating for the unfortunate, while simultaneously advocating for policies that are only making oppression worst.

I think it is an argument that can used to appreciate a whole lot of our modern left right conflict.


We have urban centers dominated by tech pushing their values onto the working class.

You have the reduction of working class jobs due to immigration and open trade, on the belief that lower iq'd individuals who are doing well can somehow fair well in teh service industry.

You have a president who talks on a 4th grade level, who for some infuriating reason is getting a massive amount of pull with the working class.

You have a president who continues to mock the assertions of high IQ'd individuals of how you can talk and speak.

You have areas designed for decentralization like Texas soaring ahead of highly centralized California.

You have urban elites on a non stop crusade against working class oil workers.


If you are aware of the IQ problem why is it you're so shocked that both me and a large proportion of the right have orientated our politics in this way?

Have you not notice how the president has reduced his level of speech since the 80s?

Have you not noticed how mocking Trump is exposing the way in which the cognitively privileged will jump down the throats of the blunt? The irony is that Trumps offensive nature exposes the more offensive nature of the left.

Have you not notices how free trade has receded from the right wing agenda?

Have you not noticed how many rust belt states have gone to Trump?

Have you not noticed the decline of California?

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by someone123

I'm not Chinese but the people I interact with day-to-day are probably 30-50% Asian. This includes neighbours, coworkers, friends, etc. My middle class neighbourhood is probably minority white and most businesses are Asian. It's not something I think about a whole lot because it's just a part of what Vancouver's been within living memory (e.g. T&T or H-Mart are not exotic field trips, to come up with one trivial example). In my friend group at one point, I'd guess that 1/3-1/2 of the couples consisted of 1 white person plus 1 Asian person.

I won't pretend my little bubble is universal but within that bubble there's a lot of integration and I've never seen a public event like a crackhead pushing over an old lady or yelling racial slurs (I probably would see that from time to time if I lived in the DTES). Even though Vancouver is not perfect, I have trouble seeing this place as xenophobic and hate-filled.



The way racism is talked about in the abstract in Canada (typically by older white people, with JT being at the younger end of that) has an antique feel to me. It's hard to address this without being accused of "minimizing racism". I am not denying anybody's experiences; in fact I am talking about people who don't see themselves as directly affected.

Racism has moved down the socioeconomic ladder over time. In the 1970's a businessman might have made a gross racist remark and gotten a chuckle from his colleagues but these days the average middle class urban Canadian finds racist comments cringe-worthy. Meanwhile people who are ethnically Chinese are of course full participants in society in Vancouver. It seems kind of patronizing to me to portray them as, on the whole, being a vulnerable victim-group that's at the mercy of crackheads on Hastings. Your Chief Justice comment made me think about that. At what point does the focus on vulnerability and victimization itself become a kind of stereotype?

I wonder how much of this view of racism has to do with the US and the presence of people like Donald Trump in the media. Or people simply remembering how things were in a different time and place.

I'd argue when you consider other cognitive factors that talking about race is a waste of time.


At best it puts up barriers that people have to work there way around.

The success of Asians is solid proof that any volume of racism doesn't negate that groups success.

The reason Asians are so touchy is that they aren't native to Canada.

We have an immigration policy where high numbers of high Iq'd individuals are ascending to prevalence in our society.

On the one hand we need more cognitively gifted immigrants to support our social networks, in contrast we need to balance out the need for equality.

When the local born working class folk are having their wages depressed by immigrants and at the same time are seeing sky rocketing costs of living you have a problem.

I'd also note the a very threatening form of racism is the jealously that forms in people who cannot compete.

Jealously breeds hatred and it is easy to imagine it getting out of control when people are forced to live with intense inequalities.

[someone123]

I dunno how much people are interested in this on SSP but one interesting dynamic is racism on gay "dating" apps (the ones where you find a random person to date for an hour). It can be really explicit and objectively verifiable in a way that in-person interactions normally aren't.

There is a notorious list that some people put in their profiles: "no fats, no femmes, no Asians". And you will find some people who are creepily focused on race in their profile (sometimes looking for those of a certain race).

The weird race-oriented profiles are virtually guaranteed to be for guys who are 50+.

The "no Asian" thing is considered very non-PC in wider gay culture, and it's a huge red flag. Chances are if you think it's okay to put "no fats, no femmes, no Asians" in your profile you are not a nice person. My impression is this became such a negative signifier that it's not used as much anymore.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

By using your peers as role models you're limiting your potential.

You're potential is already limited it is more or less a scientific fact.

Knowing how your potential is limited is a great way of reaching to those limits.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

There's a huge difference between trying to follow the path of somebody successful vs. "keeping up with the Jones'" as you allude to.

It is hard to separate the two. Which is why the term role models is so often used. If you're gifted with solid role models it is less obvious, but when you don't have any road map for life it becomes more chaotic.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

The reason Asians are so touchy is that they aren't native to Canada.

If you're talking about ethnically Asian folks then lots of them were born in Canada. What do you mean when you say Asians are touchy?

My experience with anti-racist stuff is that some of the most strident proponents tend to be upper and middle class white folks, maybe skewed toward middle age, who wish to be seen as allies of the right side. One stereotype in the US is the stay at home mom who lives in an upscale town in suburban Boston who hasn't personally seen a black individual in the last week but has 50 bumper stickers and a BLM sign up on the lawn of her million-dollar house (and she might be 1/16 Cherokee, according to legend).

[CivicBlues]

Can everyone just put lakelocker on ignore? My god he sounds like a horribly programmed AI at this point.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Can everyone just put lakelocker on ignore? My god he sounds like a horribly programmed AI at this point.

Well said, a perfect description.

If only those AI programmers had higher IQs.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by someone123

I dunno how much people are interested in this on SSP but one interesting dynamic is racism on gay "dating" apps (the ones where you find a random person to date for an hour). It can be really explicit and objectively verifiable in a way that in-person interactions normally aren't.

I think it might be important to remember that "dating" apps are not for the particularly moral.

Unironically race is something few people are insecure about.

I'm sure if you started listed off physical features like body shape, height, hip to waist, buttock, etc etc, you'd be hard pressed to find any replies.

Originally Posted by someone123

There is a notorious list that some people put in their profiles: "no fats, no femmes, no Asians". And you will find some people who are creepily focused on race in their profile (sometimes looking for those of a certain race).

It's the nature of consumption based multiculturalism. People want diversity that can be consumed, don't be shocked to find out that people looking for casual sex care more about riding an exotic person than actually talking to them.

Originally Posted by someone123

The "no Asian" thing is considered very non-PC in wider gay culture, and it's a huge red flag. Chances are if you think it's okay to put "no fats, no femmes, no Asians" in your profile you are not a nice person. My impression is this became such a negative signifier that it's not used as much anymore.

Or possibly honest?

I'd be very weary of anyone who's pretending to have nice sexual preference on any site dedicated to casual bonking.

The phrase "Elbows too pointy would not hit" exists for a reason.

People are highly selective when it comes to sexual factors. I'd argue focusing on the most easy to decipher "race" is missing the point.

People discriminate based on a persons height, shoulder to hip ratio, their posture, their tone of voice, the neoteny(cuteness) of a person face, their accent, their grammar skills, income level etc etc.

I'm sure if you just focused on body posture alone you'd be able to chart a mountain of inequality in life outcomes.