The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[casper]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

There's apparently some magical percentage, some number or mathematical equation that makes it matter. Anything below that people should just shut up and eat their food.

Is the goal to treat everyone equally or fairly. They are two very radically different things.

If the police were to treat everyone equally race would never be considered in any interaction. Police officers would be assigned based on the statistical analysis of which neighborhood have the most crime.

Treating everyone fairly is about compensating for past wrongs. Asking why does one area has higher crime than the other and responding accordingly.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Electric Lady

The fact that Caribbean immigrants in America do better than Caribbean immigrants in Canada says a lot about Canada.

Interesting that we've skipped the step of verifying this "fact".

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

If you say so.

https://web.archive.org/web/201802150245...le-an-epic-failure-in-urban-community-re

Your link agrees with what I posted....

Large-scale housing projects were underway in the north and central districts of the city, reasonably close to Africville. A large public housing complex, Mulgrave Park, built to house the many urban poor, mostly low-income black and white families, was seen as part of the solution.

The relocation of Africville was considered just a small piece of the overall urban renewal plan. Given the small size of the North End community, it represented only about 10 per cent of the number of people being relocated in the city.

City planners and building engineers were fully committed to the “high modernism” of “slum clearance.” Like modernizers in other cities, they placed a priority on upgrading housing stock and urban beautification, not the needs of the uprooted residents.

...

A surprising number of progressive thinkers supported the relocation of Africville. One of them was Alan Borovoy, then a young Toronto lawyer and later revered as Canada’s undisputed champion of civil liberties.

In August of 1962, Borovoy travelled from Toronto to Halifax for four days and, acting as a community organizer, helped to form the Halifax Human Rights Advisory Committee (HHRAC), committed to promoting racial integration and assisting the Africvillians in securing equality rights and better housing.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

It is undoubtedly true that many people were truly racist in the 1960's, and that conditions in Africville by the 1960's reflect past failures to help the inhabitants of the area. However, the Africville urban renewal project is more accurately viewed as a well-meaning initiative from the progressives of the era. And it did accomplish some of its goals, for example the elimination of a form of material deprivation and a level of poor urban housing that most Canadians are unfamiliar with today. It suffered from the top-down paternalism that was common to planning initiatives of the era, and common problems of public housing projects. Public housing projects were new in those days and people did not know how they would age over many decades.

I think this is all quite relevant to the discussion. In this thread a lot of people seem to argue that racism is the cause of the woes and if we eliminate it there's an easy path toward justice and equality. I think that eliminating racism is a great goal but I don't believe all current social problems afflicting non-white people are perpetuated only because of ongoing racist attitudes. I also don't believe that it's trivial to figure out how to fix social ills, and that if we're all basically on board with equality the rest will just work out.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Constant downplaying.

I mean, it's not unreasonable to suggest that this is an understandable response to the constant crying wolf on the part of the SJWs in the media, surely? We're now being told that "all cops are bastards" and that racism against non-white people is insidious and systemic, but when you look at the statistics you find hyperbole and even outright lies. For example, far from the hysterical claim that murders of indigenous women are ignored by genocidal police/Canadian society as a whole due to systemic racism, it turns out that convictions of said murders are produced at a slightly higher rate than for murders of non-indigenous women.

Though that potentially leads to a crazy thought: since almost all murders of indigenous women are committed by indigenous men, could the comparative success of the police in tracking down those murderers be yet another example of systemic racism?

Sound outlandish? Well, does anyone really believe you'd get any pushback if you advanced this argument in SJW circles?

[Corndogger]

Edmonton's city council is going to consider cutting the police budget by $16.3 million and allocating the money to community programs. The 2020 budget is $372.5 million which is ~14.9% of the $3 billion operating budget. Of note is that the police budget automatically rises each year to take into account inflation and growth.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I mean, it's not unreasonable to suggest that this is an understandable response to the constant crying wolf on the part of the SJWs in the media, surely? We're now being told that "all cops are bastards" and that racism against non-white people is insidious and systemic, but when you look at the statistics you find hyperbole and even outright lies. For example, far from the hysterical claim that murders of indigenous women are ignored by genocidal police/Canadian society as a whole due to systemic racism, it turns out that convictions of said murders are produced at a slightly higher rate than for murders of non-indigenous women.

Though that potentially leads to a crazy thought: since almost all murders of indigenous women are committed by indigenous men, could the comparative success of the police in tracking down those murderers be yet another example of systemic racism?

Sound outlandish? Well, does anyone really believe you'd get any pushback if you advanced this argument in SJW circles?

Is this true or just a thought experiment?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by theman23

Is this true or just a thought experiment?

The conditional added to "you" in that last sentence makes it pretty obvious that it's a hypothetical. Would be interesting to try and see, though.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Yes, undeniable, but if you don't think they are the subject of racism, either systemically or on a regular ongoing basis by other members of society, then there must be something internally that prevents their success. Can't have it both ways.

"A culture that doesn't value education" probably plays a role. Why else would East Asians have noticeably higher educational attainment and higher incomes on average?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Though that potentially leads to a crazy thought: since almost all murders of indigenous women are committed by indigenous men ...

If true, then the police is in a pickle...

1) arrest large numbers of indigenous men and put them in jail
or
2) let many murders of indigenous women go unsolved

[lio45]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

You're delusional.

Perhaps admit that other worldviews exist and your all knowing experience, skills, and assets, that you parrot in every post, don't qualify you to speak about something you've never dealt with personally or bothered to learn anything about.

Of course other worldviews exist. This is a discussion forum, not an echo chamber (or at least, ideally, not an echo chamber).

Everyone posting here has opinions shaped by their life experiences; it's perfectly normal. If you want to disagree with me, try to address my arguments instead of attacking me for "sounding too all-knowing to your taste" (lol)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Constant downplaying.

I don't know, do you just hope Vancouver doesn't have some racist activity? Or do you not care?

Yearly Hate Crimes in Vancouver -> n~37

The downplaying does itself without any need for help.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by rousseau

The conditional added to "you" in that last sentence makes it pretty obvious that it's a hypothetical. Would be interesting to try and see, though.

The premise (that indigenous murders have higher conviction rates) could still be true even if the argument you suggested was merely illustrative.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by theman23

The premise (that indigenous murders have higher conviction rates) could still be true even if the argument you suggested was merely illustrative.

It's not a premise, it's a fact. The thought experiment involved spinning that fact to indict the police for racism for arresting so many indigenous men in order to see if the spin would be accepted by SJWs.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by lio45

"A culture that doesn't value education" probably plays a role. Why else would East Asians have noticeably higher educational attainment and higher incomes on average?

Population genetics. East Asian immigrants on average have very high spatial IQ's. Just as urban population of Ashkenazi's have very high verbal IQ's.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1520-iq-is-inherited-suggests-twin-study/


https://molwick.com/en/intelligence/055-twins-brothers.html


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/





BTW this isn't fringe science. Educators spent a century using IQ scores, and IQ score equivalents(SATs) to monitor how different groups of people perform on these tests.

On the other end recent neuroscience has shown that a massive part of an IQ score is heritable.

The thing is you can't go by group averages. It is as ignorant as saying all red fruits are apples and all orange fruits are oranges.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by whatnext

It is interesting that in all these discussions, nobody has mentioned that Jewish Canadians are the most likely to be the targets of hate crimes in Canada.

I at least was aware of that and have brought it up many times before.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I mean, it's not unreasonable to suggest that this is an understandable response to the constant crying wolf on the part of the SJWs in the media, surely? We're now being told that "all cops are bastards" and that racism against non-white people is insidious and systemic, but when you look at the statistics you find hyperbole and even outright lies. For example, far from the hysterical claim that murders of indigenous women are ignored by genocidal police/Canadian society as a whole due to systemic racism, it turns out that convictions of said murders are produced at a slightly higher rate than for murders of non-indigenous women.

Though that potentially leads to a crazy thought: since almost all murders of indigenous women are committed by indigenous men, could the comparative success of the police in tracking down those murderers be yet another example of systemic racism?

Sound outlandish? Well, does anyone really believe you'd get any pushback if you advanced this argument in SJW circles?

You have been criticized for this hypothetical question (as in, you just prove that they would, bucko!), but based on past experience, would anyone honestly expect a different reaction?

It's as if O Canada was sung only in English on Canada Day in Ottawa, and I'd express false skepticism that people in Quebec would react.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by theman23

Interesting that we've skipped the step of verifying this "fact".

From the U.S. Bureau of the Census on Jamaican-Americans:

Their rate of labor force participation (72.6 percent) is higher than the national rate (64.7 percent).
Men of Jamaican ancestry have median earnings of $41,969, lower than the U.S. median of $48,629 for men. Women’s median earnings of $39,155 is higher than the U.S. median of $37,442 for women.
Their poverty rate is similar to the national rate, about 15 percent.

From Stats Canada on Jamaican-Canadians:

Many with low incomes
On average, Canadians of Jamaican origin are more likely than their counterparts in the overall population to have incomes that fall below Statistics Canada’s Low-income Cut-offs. In 2000, 26% of people in the Jamaican community in Canada lived in a household with an income below the Low-income Cut-offs, compared with 16% of the total Canadian population.

Children of Jamaican origin living in Canada are particularly likely to live in a low-income situation. In 2000, 34% of children of Jamaican origin under the age of 15 lived in a family with incomes below the Low-income Cut-offs, compared with 19% of all children in Canada.

Unattached adults of Jamaican origin are also somewhat more likely than their counterparts in the overall population to have low incomes. In 2000, 41% of unattached people of Jamaican origin aged 15 and over had low incomes, compared with 38% of those in the overall population.

Seniors of Jamaican origin who live alone are particularly likely to have low incomes. In 2000, 62% of unattached people of Jamaican origin aged 65 and over had incomes below the Low-income Cut-offs, compared with 40% of all unattached Canadian seniors.

Unattached female seniors of Jamaican origin are the most likely to have low incomes. In 2000, 69% Jamaican women aged 65 and over who lived alone had incomes below the Low-income Cut-offs, compared with 49% of unattached male seniors of Jamaican origin, and 43% of all unattached women aged 65 and over in Canada.

Not to mention that I don't think there is anywhere in the U.S. where this group is stereotyped by so many as representing the "criminal element" like it is in the GTA (and to some degree Ottawa).

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

Population genetics. East Asian immigrants on average have very high spatial IQ's. Just as urban population of Ashkenazi's have very high verbal IQ's.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1520-iq-is-inherited-suggests-twin-study/


https://molwick.com/en/intelligence/055-twins-brothers.html


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/





BTW this isn't fringe science. Educators spent a century using IQ scores, and IQ score equivalents(SATs) to monitor how different groups of people perform on these tests.

On the other end recent neuroscience has shown that a massive part of an IQ score is heritable.

The thing is you can't go by group averages. It is as ignorant as saying all red fruits are apples and all orange fruits are oranges.

You are going down a dangerous road.

So, do you know anything about how IQ tests are constructed (content, etc.)? I am an expert in test (aka, measurement) theory (Nunnally, 1967). Psychometric measures are bound by the context. Always are, always have been. For example, take any given set of measures for a construct, translate/backtranslate into another language, and you will often find that they have different meaning.

For years I had an office next to the most notorious researcher in the country (perhaps the world) on IQ differences across racial groups (who later went on to state that men were smarter than women on these same tests).

When discussing the statistical properties of an exam, one may hear the term “error” or measurement error used by psychometricians. Error can be considered information contributing to a person’s exam score beyond the person’s true or actual ability. So from computational and classical test theory perspective, error is

E = O – T or Error = Observed – True

more fundamentally: Xo= Xt + Xs + Xr

The Observed score (Xo) is the actual score on the exam and True score (Xt) is the person’s actual ability. Error is the difference between observed and true scores.

Error can be random (Xr) or systematic (Xs). Random error typically occurs during one administration. This may include guessing, misreading a question or a candidate not feeling well. In this instance of random error, the error would not likely occur during a subsequent administration. Systematic errors are typical attributes of the person or the exam that would occur across administrations. These errors typically do not have much to do with the content being measured. An example could be an exhaustive item with excess verbiage that asks a simple math problem and the simple math problem is what is intended to be measured, not the candidate’s ability to sort through the verbiage.

Do you think that there may be biases in test block items constructed by white males, of which many questions were constructed years ago, delivered to people of different characteristics and measured in different contexts (e.g., time of day, place, who is doing the measurement, what sort of instrumentation is used to gauge responses? How do you know that the test items have construct validity (i.e., that they measure what they are supposed to measure, and nothing else, and do so with a high degree of reliability across situations and contexts)? How do you know that the groups in questions have equal levels of literacy?

Moreover, from a strictly statistical perspective, variation within groups on IQ is far, far greater than the variation observed between groups (females vs. males, racial groups). Hence you have the issue of heteroskedasticity, which further limits the ability to draw firm conclusions.

None of this is to say that IQ, and many other traits, are not partially heritable.

Anyways, arguing with you is an exercise in futility. Before making such incendiary claims, you might consider thinking about how people are going to react. Moreover, read about the issue before making sweeping, ill-founded conclusions.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog...q-differences-between-races-are-unlikely

And don't give me any BS about how you know the science, etc., etc. You don't.

[MonctonRad]

I am no expert on IQ tests, but I have taken them a couple of times (once in school, once recreationally). Surprisingly they both came up with the exact same result - 139.

I was struck on both occasions that the exam is as much a test on ones linguistic skills as it is on your problem solving ability or knowledge. The questions are often tricky, and frequently employ double negatives, which for non native English speakers might be very difficult to answer. Even non standard English speakers (African Americans from the 'hood) would be at a disadvantage.

In essence, the test is designed for native English speaking white North Americans, leading to an inherent bias, and the results of the test should be interpreted accordingly.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Constant downplaying.

I don't know, do you just hope Vancouver doesn't have some racist activity? Or do you not care?

Chinese person who lived in Vancouver for 7 years here.

Not only did I not experience any racism, but I observed this big transformation going on where upper and upper middle class white people would often marry, and have children with, Chinese Canadians like me. So, at the very least, in 30-40 years, a lot of people who will run British Columbia will be of some Chinese ancestry and visibly quite Chinese. This is already kind of happening.

And the thing about being on the receiving end of racism is that the “victim” has to always consider the social position of the person doing the offending.

The people who yell out racist slurs at Chinese people tend to be in a lower socioeconomic position than the Chinese people they’re trying to offend. Who’s actually losing in this case? If a crackhead on Hastings starts yelling at me on the bus, is he actually thwarting my ability to get a mortgage, or advance my career or raise a child who could become Chief Justice some day?