The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by lio45

That's just an observable cold hard fact, that no one can deny, even you. No need to push anyone to jump to a conclusion if there's not sufficient justification for it at this point.

Yes, undeniable, but if you don't think they are the subject of racism, either systemically or on a regular ongoing basis by other members of society, then there must be something internally that prevents their success. Can't have it both ways.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Good thing we have stats for that:

https://vancouversun.com/news/covid-19-vancouver-police-provide-update-on-rise-in-hate-crimes

Asians came here with a ton of money in recent years, fleeing the Hong Kong turnover to China specifically and the CCP more generally.. Whether the ones who grew up here are better off than similar white people, who knows.

There has been a spike in anti-Asian hate crimes in Vancouver, with police investigating 29 cases since the COVID-19 pandemic hit B.C. in March. ... So far this year, the VPD is looking into 77 hate-associated police files, up from 51 at the same time in 2019.

Pretty underwhelming. They cast a wide net for hate crimes; this includes anything from murder or physical assault on down to bad mouthing and graffiti. I'd guess there's a huge amount of subjectivity in what is considered a hate crime.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

I guess my main question is how we would quantify the amount of racism that Asians in Vancouver had to put up with because of covid. There were those videos, obviously awful, of people yelling at Asians and the story of the old woman who got pushed over. But this is a city with 2.5 million people or so. You can't say much one way or the other about YouTube videos. Are those 1 in 10,000 events? 1 in 100, and there's an epidemic of old Asian ladies being pushed over?

It is no different from any other threat, risk, or problem that you'd want to quantify. Am I likely to die of getting shot? Hit by a lightning bolt? Hantivirus? What should I worry about? What should we worry about as a society? Do we just lurch from one panicked response to another based on what the most recent viral YouTube video was about?

I wouldn't be surprised if Asians in Vancouver are on average more successful than whites (higher educational attainment, higher incomes). I guess the on-message way to explain this is that they have just done so well that they managed to overcome the handicaps imposed by pervasive racism. I'm still confused about why oppressively racist Vancouver is a popular destination for non-white people though.

You complain a lot about black and white thinking and yet here is a clear example of you doing just that.

Your need to downplay racism in every post is curious.

Arguing over whether or not each claim of racism is exaggerated becomes a deflection, a form of denial.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Yes, undeniable, but if you don't think they are the subject of racism, either systemically or on a regular ongoing basis by other members of society, then there must be something internally that prevents their success. Can't have it both ways.

Yes, ultimately such claims come down to "it's their own fault and therefore the reaction is justified". Sounds awfully racist, no?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

You complain a lot about black and white thinking and yet here is a clear example of you doing just that.

How is it black and white thinking to accept that there are anti-Asian racist incidents but talk about the incidence rate?

My point is it's hard to know what to make of anecdotes. In a big city there will always be some people who act badly; that includes murderers, rapists, and hardcore racists. But they don't necessarily reflect the behaviour of the majority or what sort of day-to-day experience a typical person will have.

It is a reality of our society and its scarce resources that it matters how we direct social spending and aid, so it's important to be able to quantify the magnitude of different social problems.

Your need to downplay racism in every post is curious.

I don't have any need to downplay racism. I did not downplay what happened to George Floyd. Nor did I downplay the unfairness of stop and frisk, or the ridiculousness of police militarization. You are just trying to poison the well instead of coming up with real arguments.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Yes, ultimately such claims come down to "it's their own fault and therefore the reaction is justified". Sounds awfully racist, no?

Yes. This is the subconscious racism/prejudice that I think is at the heart of a lot of what is happening.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And East Asian and South Asian Canadians and some other communities will say the same as well.

Yet outcomes are highly variable across visible minority communities.

That's what I have been saying all along.

I don't know why. Are there forms of discrimination that Afro-Canadians were/are subjected to that other vis min groups were exempted from?

Also, Afro-Canadian outcomes seem to vary a bit according to region and metro area. So is there stuff going on with them in certain parts of the country but not in others?

It is interesting that in all these discussions, nobody has mentioned that Jewish Canadians are the most likely to be the targets of hate crimes in Canada.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Sorry but this is complete drivel.

It's like watching a brain slowly cave in on itself.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by someone123

Pretty underwhelming. They cast a wide net for hate crimes; this includes anything from murder or physical assault on down to bad mouthing and graffiti. I'd guess there's a huge amount of subjectivity in what is considered a hate crime.

Constant downplaying.

I don't know, do you just hope Vancouver doesn't have some racist activity? Or do you not care?

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Yes. This is the subconscious racism/prejudice that I think is at the heart of a lot of what is happening.

Yes, and rather than query that inside of themselves there are a million rationalizations presented to deflect and maintain the status quo.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Constant downplaying.

I don't know, do you just hope Vancouver doesn't have some racist activity? Or do you not care?

I think we need to be rigorous about how we measure something like hate crimes. I'm a bit skeptical that Vancouver's actually getting worse for hate crimes, i.e. 2005 or 1990 Vancouver were less racist than today.

Crime statistics like homicides are the gold standard because they're a bit more cut-and-dried. If you have a hate crime bin that includes murder and graffiti, you don't know if going from 50 incidents to 75 is an improvement or not. If you go from 50 murders to 75 graffiti incidents it's an improvement. If you go from 50 graffiti incidents to 75 murders it's really bad.

You guys keep half-reading my stuff and then arguing that flaws I point out in reasoning betray some kind of hidden agenda. Sadly one of the common SSP Canada debate failure modes. Eventually if you keep hectoring people who try to engage rationally it'll just be you and the crazy ring wing people shouting back and forth.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Constant downplaying.

I don't know, do you just hope Vancouver doesn't have some racist activity? Or do you not care?

There's apparently some magical percentage, some number or mathematical equation that makes it matter. Anything below that people should just shut up and eat their food.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think we need to be rigorous about how we measure something like hate crimes. I'm a bit skeptical that Vancouver's actually getting worse for hate crimes, i.e. 2005 or 1990 Vancouver were less racist than today.

Crime statistics like homicides are the gold standard because they're a bit more cut-and-dried. If you have a hate crime bin that includes murder and graffiti, you don't know if going from 50 incidents to 75 is an improvement or not. If you go from 50 murders to 75 graffiti incidents it's an improvement. If you go from 50 graffiti incidents to 75 murders it's really bad.

You guys keep half-reading my stuff and then arguing that flaws I point out in reasoning betray some kind of hidden agenda. Sadly one of the common SSP Canada debate failure modes. Eventually if you keep hectoring people who try to engage rationally it'll just be you and the crazy ring wing people shouting back and forth.

Because all of your posts are basically, "this isn't a big deal because.."

If that's what's coming across, and you don't intend that perhaps you should question your wording.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think we need to be rigorous about how we measure something like hate crimes. I'm a bit skeptical that Vancouver's actually getting worse for hate crimes, i.e. 2005 or 1990 Vancouver were less racist than today.

What makes you think the rigor has changed between 2019 and 2020?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

There's apparently some magical percentage, some number or mathematical equation that makes it matter. Anything below that people should just shut up and eat their food.

In our world of scarce resources and limited political bandwidth, policies need to be proportional to the problem. The way you tackle street people swearing at Asians is ideally going to be different from how you tackle a pattern of police killing hundreds of people a year.

(No subliminal message intended in this post...)

[someone123]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What makes you think the rigor has changed between 2019 and 2020?

I don't. I explained what I meant below in that same post, with the part about homicide; if you have wide categories you don't know the severity of the crimes committed. One reason why crime severity indices are used instead of counts of crimes of varying severity.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

In our world of scarce resources and limited political bandwidth, policies need to be proportional to the problem. The way you tackle street people swearing at Asians is ideally going to be different from how you tackle a pattern of police killing hundreds of people a year.

(No subliminal message intended in this post...)

I agree but also, when minority groups voice their experiences the goal should be to listen and not start with, "Well how much racism is there and is it therefore worth addressing?".

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Sorry but this is complete drivel.

Very articulate, that's an easier statement than actually thinking your way through it.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

I agree but also, when minority groups voice their experiences the goal should be to listen and not start with, "Well how much racism is there and is it therefore worth addressing?".

Presumably the minority groups would also like something to be done. And that will tend to require some buy-in from a majority, as well as trade-offs. For example maybe we won't spend 100% of our public dollars on anti-Asian hate crimes because we also care about First Nations issues. Hence the need to figure out proportions in the severity of different issues, and tie the solutions to the causes.

Many people are concerned with broadcasting that they think racism is extremely serious. And that is laudable. But in the United States along with the millions watching police brutality clips on 24 hour loop there are millions watching looting and mobbing on 24 hour loop. Somehow that gap will need to be bridged, although I am not sure it will happen effectively south of the border anytime soon.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Electric Lady

The fact that Caribbean immigrants in America do better than Caribbean immigrants in Canada says a lot about Canada.

Or more likely selection factors mean everything.

If all your high IQ'd members of your population end up in one country, and the less than average in another.

If you spent seconds looking at population genetics and IQ it is a really easy to understand equation.

Generations of success creates populations of people with high IQs securing that success for future generations. So if all your high enders goto one place it isn't a shock they are successful.

This is likely why Nigerian Americans do so well. In contrast Black Americans average out around the global IQ average.

It isn't that white people are privileged it is that high IQ individuals from any population are privileged.

This is the obvious reason why immigrants tend to do very well in contrast to local populations.

The part most people have trouble appreciating is that IQ distributions are not a linear consistent curve around the globe.

Different neighborhoods will have different averages, different cities, nations etc. It is a very random thing and trying to pull a group average out of it is utter nonsense.