The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Funny how we've gone from advocating for a colour-blind society to a colour-obsessive society. And they would have us believe that that's progress.

It is progress when colour-blind is just a euphemism for business as usual in a white supremacist society.

That progress also entails overreactions and mistakes as all human endeavours do along the way.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

At the very least, it is widely viewed as the only good way to be.

I mean, why would anyone not want to be like "us"?

True, and that works from all sides as we can see in discussions here.

That being said, anglo society is also filled with those railing against progress and trying their best to empathize with others as little as possible.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We need to keep in mind the differences with respect to the history of policing between the two countries. In Canada, our national police force was effectively a frontier authority and paramilitary force. Beyond that we urbanized earlier in our history and went to city police forces. We never had segregation here either. Compare that to the US where the earliest police forces in the US that were fugitive slave capture outfits or anti-union organizations (Pinkerton). And then for most of the 20th century helped enforce segregation and Jim Crow laws against African Americans. That history most assuredly colours how disadvantaged minorities in the US view law enforcement.

Would help to get the histories right but since revisionism is a SSP trademark why start now?!

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah well they would argue that what is actually more racist is categorizing people based on skin colour and/or ethnicity.

From what I understand, the fear is that would undercut notions of Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité.

I was watching France 24 the other day and they were comparing policing in the US to that in France. They made a convincing argument for the superiority of the French system with no local police forces, etc., but I still had an inkling notion that something was being glossed over in the name of French pride.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We need to keep in mind the differences with respect to the history of policing between the two countries. In Canada, our national police force was effectively a frontier authority and paramilitary force. Beyond that we urbanized earlier in our history and went to city police forces. We never had segregation here either. Compare that to the US where the earliest police forces in the US that were fugitive slave capture outfits or anti-union organizations (Pinkerton). And then for most of the 20th century helped enforce segregation and Jim Crow laws against African Americans. That history most assuredly colours how disadvantaged minorities in the US view law enforcement.

Segregation existed in Canada as did slavery, just on a smaller scale.

The RCMP was created to assert authority over Indigenous people and their land.

If you are listening, Black and Indigenous people have major grievances with law enforcement in Canada.

We are not America but we do have similarities.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Segregation existed in Canada as did slavery, just on a smaller scale.

Usually this kind of discussion generates more heat than light on the issue. Canadians in general don't seem to know much about their own history in this area and rely a lot on Hollywood or American media, or anecdotes that highlight historical exceptions rather than norms.

As one example Viola Desmond has been lauded as Canada's Rosa Parks. But the Roseland Theatre incident happened in 1946 while the Rosa Parks' bus boycott was in 1955. More importantly, Rosa Parks fought segregation laws while in the case of Viola Desmond there was no segregation law; it was a question over whether or not a private business owner could discriminate by race. It's an important case and interesting story but it doesn't prove that Canada was like Alabama in the 1950's.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

Usually this kind of discussion generates more heat than light on the issue. Canadians in general don't seem to know much about their own history in this area and rely a lot on Hollywood or American media, or anecdotes that highlight historical exceptions rather than norms.

As one example Viola Desmond has been lauded as Canada's Rosa Parks. But the Roseland Theatre incident happened in 1946 while the Rosa Parks' bus boycott was in 1955. More importantly, Rosa Parks fought segregation laws while in the case of Viola Desmond there was no segregation law; it was a question over whether or not a private business owner could discriminate by race.

Yes, we didn't have Jim Crow but the practice existed. There was no law against it.

This is a good summary:

Canada has always been considered a forward thinking land of freedom; a multicultural society where all citizens are free from racial discrimination. Historically, while Canada did not have segregation (Jim Crow) laws like in the United States, segregation did exist in this country. One such incident was a Supreme Court ruling in 1939 where the Court allowed private businesses to discriminate.

In 1936 on July 11th, Fred Christie entered a bar with his friends in Montreal and was refused service because he was a Black man. Christie sued the bar and won his case. The bar appealed and the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that any bar and restaurants had a right to refuse service to any person.

There are other instances of racial segregation throughout Canada. Canada’s military had a segregated all Black Battalion (1916) and the Armed Forces denied Black volunteers until 1939. All of the 48 Black Communities in Nova Scotia were geographically segregated from cities and town. In 1946 Viola Desmond was arrested for sitting in the “whites only” section of a Movie Theatre. Other forms of segregation included housing and apartment rental. Orphanages could segregate children on race, and hospitals could refuse Black physicians and patients. Cemeteries, such as the one in St. Croix, Nova Scotia, could deny burial rights.

Several provinces including Ontario, Quebec and Nova Scotia had segregated schools. It was not until the passing of the 1977 Canadian Human Rights Act that these practices began to change and the last segregated school in Canada closed in 1983 just outside Halifax, in Lincolnville, Nova Scotia.

https://ansa.novascotia.ca/content/african-heritage-month-narratives-week-three

[someone123]

It's actually not a very good summary. It's a bunch of examples that are chosen to prove a point but don't establish norms in any geographical areas or periods.

The point about geographically segregated towns in NS is more or less circular (i.e. it's only a black community if it is geographically segregated). These towns were set up as land grants for black immigrants to the province, mostly in the 1700's and early 1800's. Black people did not have to live in those towns and many lived in the city too.

It was completely normal for a group immigrating to NS 200 years ago to get a land grant somewhere that would result in a village or small town of people who all had the same background, e.g. the ship Hector lands in Pictou and starts a town of Scots. Lincolnville NS is not "just outside Halifax", it's a 2 hour 40 minute drive. It is true that the land granted to black people was often poor and isolated, but in the case of Lincolnville the grant happened in 1784. Lincolnville appears to consist of around 15 houses.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's actually not a very good summary. It's a bunch of examples that are chosen to prove a point but don't establish norms in any geographical areas or periods.

The point is that segregation existed. I don't think the article is striving to say it was the norm or widespread. Had the black population in Canada been larger I'm sure that this would have been a much greater issue. It's not like white Canadians were very evolved on issues of race. We couldn't even bring ourselves to welcome Jewish refugees while the Nazis were committing genocide.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's actually not a very good summary. It's a bunch of examples that are chosen to prove a point but don't establish norms in any geographical areas or periods.

Education

Racial segregation in schools played out in different kinds of ways. In some places, there were separate school buildings designated as “negro schools.” In other places such as Hamilton and West Flamboro, students attended school in the same one-room schoolhouse but at separate times. If attending at the same time, they were relegated to different benches based on their race. In one vivid example of racially segregated schooling in Colchester, Ontario, Black and White students at Colchester School Section No.2 in 1888 are physically separated in a school photo.

Racial segregation in education was reinforced and maintained by Ontario’s provincial court system. Once racially segregated schools were established, the courts upheld the practice. Black children were refused admission to White schools when Black parents sued common school trustees.

Similar legislation was implemented in Nova Scotia in 1865. While amendments in 1884 stipulated that Black children could not be excluded from attending schools where they lived, racial segregation continued in some areas with high concentrations of Black residents such as Halifax. In other Nova Scotian communities such as Inglewood and Weymouth Falls, the practice of racially segregated schools persisted due to the realities of racial segregation of residential neighbourhoods. In extreme cases, Black children were denied any access to local public schools in towns such as Fundy and Guysborough County when no separate school existed. The original provisions of racial segregation in education remained law in Nova Scotia until 1950.

In response to the activism of Black parents, racially segregated schools in Ontario were gradually phased out. The last racially segregated school in Ontario, School Section No.11, closed in 1965 in Colchester, after newly elected MPP Leonard Braithwaite put forth a motion for the Separate Schools clause on segregated schools for Blacks to be officially removed from provincial education policy. The last racially segregated school in Nova Scotia closed in 1983 in Guysborough County.

Source: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/racial-segregation-of-black-people-in-canada

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

The point is that segregation existed. I don't think the article is striving to say it was the norm or widespread. Had the black population in Canada been larger I'm sure that this would have been a much greater issue. It's not like white Canadians were very evolved on issues of race. We couldn't even bring ourselves to welcome Jewish refugees while the Nazis were committing genocide.

But there is a huge difference between enforced segregation, geographical segregation that exists due to historical reasons (and may only affect 10% of the remaining population since 90% moved away from these isolated rural areas), and things that have been set up for a minority community or are run by a community for community members.

Canada's a big country so finding one example of something is meaningless. Many people are murdered in Canada each year but we do not consider ourselves a "nation of murderers" or say that Canada is a "murdering nation" like, say, Afghanistan (but admittedly not quite as bad).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Funny how we've gone from advocating for a colour-blind society to a colour-obsessive society. And they would have us believe that that's progress.

On several aspects we've indeed gone from "only people of this particular skin color can drink from that fountain" to, temporarily, "anyone can drink from that fountain", and now getting back to "only people of this particular skin color can drink from that fountain".

The Reddit of 2020 and the Reddit-equivalent of 1850 definitely share something (the "correct" skin color being a prerequisite for an executive position) that we hadn't seen anymore during a certain window of time in between.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's actually not a very good summary. It's a bunch of examples that are chosen to prove a point but don't establish norms in any geographical areas or periods.

Recreational Facilities

Black Canadians could not historically access many public recreational facilities. In 1923, the Edmonton city council passed an ordinance that barred Blacks from swimming in city pools after an outcry from the white public and the Edmonton Exhibition Association which opposed mixed bathing. Skating rinks also refused admission to Blacks, no matter the age. In 1945, 15-year-old Harry Gairey Jr. and his white friend Donny Jubas went skating at an indoor ice rink in Toronto, but they were told that Harry could not get a ticket, because they did not sell tickets to Black people.

On a Civic Holiday weekend in August 1930, approximately 300 members of the three Black churches in Chatham, Ontario who were visiting Seacliff Park in Leamington, Ontario were ordered by the mayor and two city councillors to leave the park because they had breached a common local convention “which prevents colored people from making a rendezvous of the town or township or holidaying at the Park, especially on a public holiday.”

Source: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/racial-segregation-of-black-people-in-canada

There's a lot more examples of segregation in Canada. Probably the biggest difference between Canada and the U.S. is that they codified their segregation laws much often than we did. End result was usually the same which is something many Canadians of today either don't know or refuse to admit is the case.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Similar legislation was implemented in Nova Scotia in 1865. While amendments in 1884 stipulated that Black children could not be excluded from attending schools where they lived, racial segregation continued in some areas with high concentrations of Black residents such as Halifax. In other Nova Scotian communities such as Inglewood and Weymouth Falls, the practice of racially segregated schools persisted due to the realities of racial segregation of residential neighbourhoods. In extreme cases, Black children were denied any access to local public schools in towns such as Fundy and Guysborough County when no separate school existed. The original provisions of racial segregation in education remained law in Nova Scotia until 1950.

This passage is so badly written. They say the practice of excluding black children was banned in law in 1884 but then they sort of say it existed somewhere at some point without giving detail on the time or scale. Most of these places are vague (is or was Fundy NS a real place or town?) or little roads with a few houses on them that I assume historically had one-room schoolhouses the kids in the neighbourhood walked to.

They don't say what the "original provisions of racial segregation in education" are or if they were ever enforced. Lots of bad old laws stay on the books for too long and 1950 was 70 years ago.

As I like to point out the first black person graduated from Dalhousie University in Halifax in 1898. So clearly this story is somewhat more complicated than educational segregation being strictly enforced until 1950, which still would have been better than the Southern US...

[lio45]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Are you in the construction industry? I do recall some colourful language used by day labourer types in Vancouver years ago, often directly to another persons face eg First Nations or Chinese. And they would reply in kind ha. Living in a SRO in the downtown eastside you realize that although the language used is often racist the speakers aren't necessarily racist ... lots of interracial relationships, camaraderie and drinking and doing drugs together.

Yep, and that pretty much matches my experience too.

Actions speak much louder than words, in my view. I find it much more important to treat everyone the same way than to mercilessly crack down on ridiculously minor stuff. And yes, that's minor stuff. When someone's irrationally angry and pissed off, they can lash out verbally at any distinguishing feature of their target; doesn't have much deeper meaning. "That old wrinkly bitch" if the target is an old woman, "that fat bald idiot" is the target is a fat bald man, "that [Voldemort Word]" if the target is a Congolese businessman that just greatly pressed your buttons, is pretty much all in the same category to me - nothing in there is an Unforgivable Curse to me.

BTW I personally never do this because I'm a very cool-headed person who never gets angry. But I am aware some other humans have very short fuses. That's not abnormal.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by lio45

On several aspects we've indeed gone from "only people of this particular skin color can drink from that fountain" to, temporarily, "anyone can drink from that fountain", and now getting back to "only people of this particular skin color can drink from that fountain".

What twisted logic leads you to this analogy?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by someone123

This passage is so badly written. They say the practice of excluding black children was banned in law in 1884 but then they sort of say it existed somewhere at some point without giving detail on the time or scale. Most of these places are vague or little roads with a few houses on them that I assume historically had one-room schoolhouses the kids in the neighbourhood walked to.

They don't say what the "original provisions of racial segregation in education" are or if they were ever enforced. Lots of bad old laws stay on the books for too long and 1950 was 70 years ago.

As I like to point out the first black person graduated from Dalhousie University in Halifax in 1898. So clearly this story is somewhat more complicated than educational segregation being strictly enforced until 1950...

My take was in areas that were mixed and had enough Black kids that the Black kids had to go to an all Black school.

Read the section on post-secondary education. Tons of racism--Blacks often couldn't even get into important programs such as nursing and medicine. I wouldn't be surprised if the same rules applied to Asians. Chinese citizens/residents back 100 years ago or so were treated just as badly as Blacks were. Hopefully what's going on now will result in history books being rewritten to reflect the truth.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Read the section on post-secondary education. Tons of racism--Blacks often couldn't even get into important programs such as nursing and medicine. I wouldn't be surprised if the same rules applied to Asians. Chinese citizens/residents back 100 years ago or so were treated just as badly as Blacks were. Hopefully what's going on now will result in history books being rewritten to reflect the truth.

I thought this was pretty well known. I have not read any history books written recently (as in within the last 50 years or so) that indicate that Canada was free of racist policies in, say, 1918. You'd probably find it challenging to find a history book being used in a Canadian public school curriculum today that doesn't include sections on racism in Canada.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What twisted logic leads you to this analogy?

I had a recent conversation with my current FL property manager who's also been helping me develop some property over there in a project that became a bit political; I'll spare you the details but the point is, we often have to discuss local politics for business purposes. I recently learned that this key person in the area is starting a local entrepreneur mentorship group for promising young blacks. (A very race-obsessed / Anglo thing to do IMO, the sort of thing that rubs me the wrong way.)

I like to try being philanthropist sometimes so I figure I could start in my FL neck of the woods (an area where I've already gone out of my way to be a force for good, because I've always been super well treated by City Council, greatly unlike my hometown in Quebec) a mentorship group for young white-only kids who show entrepreneurial potential.

I mean, the black ones have their structure/pipeline for this in 2020, so clearly, we don't want to leave the white ones in the cold, right? They need their own institution too.

And with this, we're right back to segregation. "Progress!"

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by lio45

I mean, the black ones have their structure/pipeline for this in 2020, so clearly, we don't want to leave the white ones in the cold, right? They need their own institution too.

And with this, we're right back to segregation. "Progress!"

If that's your takeaway, I think you're missing the point by a country mile.