Calgary International Airport II

[hollywoodcory]

Originally Posted by Rogie

Do you think those routes would be dependent on Canada opening its borders to non-Canadians or permanent residents?

Possibly. I imagine WestJet is weighing that right now along with restrictions in place still in other countries determining where they will fly. LAX, ATL & LAS are already scheduled to resume later this month.

[hollywoodcory]

AC August changes:

LHR - Re-increased to daily with 789 replacing 77W. Despite the downguage in aircraft this is still strangely increase in seats per week. It was previously planned 5x weekly.

LAS - Moves to mainline, with a 320 operating daily. New flight numbers are AC930/931.

[hollywoodcory]

United is resuming service to Canada in July, with flights to YYZ, YUL, YVR & YYC.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/ai...e-flights-july-adds-nonstops/3160482001/

United loaded it's July schedule update, and so far all that's planned is 1x daily YYC-ORD from July 7. Most of the flights are currently "sold out" though.

American and hopefully WestJet should have revised schedules out tonight for July.

EDIT: AA schedule changes appear to be showing now. Seeing 1x daily DFW 738 & 1x daily E75 ORD.

[People_talking]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

What a difference.

180 flights a week for WS, and only up to 98 a week for AC.

AC has essentially already de-hub’d YYC.

I don't understand what you're getting at. Considering the fact that we are still very much in a pandemic that statistic is meaningless. If it was sustainable before Covid, why wouldn't it be after? It's not like passenger number are permanent going to be 95% less than they were pre-covid forever now. Air Canada said themselves that they expect numbers to return to pre-Covid levels by 2024. AC is doing what is profitable for them in this second, and in the future they will do what is profitable for them then.

In the airline industry it is notoriously difficult for airlines to make profits and when they do the margins are razor thin. every airline on the planet will take a loss for 2020 and probably for 2021 too, and in saying that, airlines will need to find a way to make and save money. Air Canada knows that Westjet is a key provider especially in YYC so for the time being with decreased demand for air travel it makes sense for them to cut flights to YYC for the time being.

Calgary is also Westjet main hub, that's why they are resuming so many flights from YYC. If Calgary was Air Canada main hub then Air Canada would be resuming flights from YYC, make sense?

If you had a sense of understanding on how airlines work, and how Canada's geography and population play factors in deciding where airlines fly they you would know what AC having a hub in YYC is strategic. It's strategic in the sense that it is their main competitors hub, and keeping market share at said hub is important for them to maintain marketshare in general. Secondly if you look at a map of Canada you would see that people are generally spread out more east/west rather than north/south, that coupled with the fact that Alberta is a province with 4.4 million people living within its borders and Calgary is in a location in the south of the province, next to major tourist destinations, it makes sense to have a hub there and it would be stupid not to have one. A population of 4.4 million, as well as tourism, wealth, international business ties, a strong leisure market etc, makes YYC and Alberta as a whole profitable for airlines to operate too. If Canada had a third major airline, odds are they would have a hub within Alberta too, whether that would be in YYC or YEG who knows.

[Rollerstud98]

Originally Posted by People_talking

I don't understand wha you're getting at. Considering the fact that we are still very much in a pandemic that statistic is meaningless. If it was sustainable before Covid, why wouldn't it be after? It's not like passenger number are permanent going to be 95% less than they were pre-covid forever now. Air Canada said themselves that they expect numbers to return to pre-Covid levels by 2024. AC is doing what is profitable for them in this second, and in the future they will do what is profitable for them then.

In the airline industry it is notoriously difficult for airlines to make profits and when they do the margins are razor thin. every airline on the planet will take a loss for 2020 and probably for 2021 too, and in saying that, airlines will need to find a way to make and save money. Air Canada knows that Westjet is a key provider especially in YYC so for the time being with decreased demand for air travel it makes sense for them to cut flights to YYC for the time being.

Calgary is also Westjet main hub, that's why they are resuming so many flights from YYC. If Calgary was Air Canada main hub then Air Canada would be resuming flights from YYC, make sense?

If you had a sense of understanding on how airlines work, and how Canada's geography and population play factors in deciding where airlines fly they you would know what AC having a hub in YYC is strategic. It's strategic in the sense that it is their main competitors hub, and keeping market share at said hub is important for them to maintain marketshare in general. Secondly if you look at a map of Canada you would see that people are generally spread out more east/west rather than north/south, that coupled with the fact that Alberta is a province with 4.4 million people living within its borders and Calgary is in a location in the south of the province, next to major tourist destinations, it makes sense to have a hub there and it would be stupid not to have one. A population of 4.4 million, as well as tourism, wealth, international business ties, a strong leisure market etc, makes YYC and Alberta as a whole profitable for airlines to operate too. If Canada had a third major airlines, odds are they would have a hub within Alberta too, whether that would be in YYC or YEG who knows.

Better off just not engaging the clear troll.

[People_talking]

Originally Posted by Rollerstud98

Better off just not engaging the clear troll.

True.

[Coldrsx]

'If Canada had a third major airline, odds are they would have a hub within Alberta too,
whether that would be in YYC or YEG who knows.'

Flair?

YEG, although shifting

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by People_talking

True.

Yes. That’s guy is a troll and a loser.
He has a habit of dumping his narrow minded views in the Western Canada threads.
Only get to see what rubbish he posts only when people quote him.
He should stick to his own little world.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

'If Canada had a third major airline, odds are they would have a hub within Alberta too,
whether that would be in YYC or YEG who knows.'

Flair?

YEG, although shifting

They have definitely shifted their focus away from YEG. They tried basing there but it didn’t really work for them.
Never was a “hub” there anyway.

[hollywoodcory]

Upon further look, I see American actually has 2 daily flights to DFW planned in July on a mainline 738 along with the E75 to ORD. Quite astonishing that they continue to be the largest foreign carrier despite not having a partner in the market, while DL and UA only maintain a single daily to one of their destinations.

WestJet is now the last major carrier in North America to publish a July schedule. But July is already looking like a good month for us in comparison to that last few.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by People_talking

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I think were both saying the same thing. When i said "dehubbed", I meant in terms of "main hub". Fact of the matter is, ever since AC went on it's intl expansion phase around 10 years ago at the big 3 hubs, YYC was left behind. Today, for AC, YYC it is nothing more than a regional hub. COVID will only widen that gap between the big 3 and YYC even further.

Considering the fact that we are still very much in a pandemic that statistic is meaningless.

Not really, no. It illustrates my point perfectly. It illustrates your point too, btw.

Calgary is also Westjet main hub, that's why they are resuming so many flights from YYC. If Calgary was Air Canada main hub then Air Canada would be resuming flights from YYC, make sense?

Yes. Again, you are basically illustrating the same point I was making. YYC is more of a regional hub for AC, compared to the big 3. When i said AC is basically dehubbing YYC, it's in this context. No longer a main hub, as it has been for CP or AC until around 2005/2010, but rather now simply relegated to a regional hub, which COVID will make even more evident.

If you had a sense of understanding on how airlines work, and how Canada's geography and population play factors in deciding where airlines fly they you would know what AC having a hub in YYC is strategic. It's strategic in the sense that it is their main competitors hub, and keeping market share at said hub is important for them to maintain marketshare in general.

Keeping and maintaining market share?

Maybe you should look and see what has happened to AC's market share at YYC in the last 10 to 15 years before making those comments.

If Canada had a third major airline, odds are they would have a hub within Alberta too, whether that would be in YYC or YEG who knows.

Canada does have a third major airline, it's called Air Transat, and last time I checked, their operations in Alberta are meaningless. And before anyone says TS isn't a big player, I beg to differ. Why else would the European commission be looking into the AC/TS merger if it wasn't ?

BTW, the mere fact that you think the next major airline will have a hub in Alberta tells me you don't have an understanding of how airlines work, and how geography/population factors in.

There will be no next "major airline" in Canada, simply because Canada can't sustain another big player. Population base simply isn't there. The next biggest thing is Sunwing, and even it has minimal presence in Alberta, compared to Ont/Que/BC.

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

'If Canada had a third major airline, odds are they would have a hub within Alberta too,
whether that would be in YYC or YEG who knows.'

Flair?

YEG, although shifting

Flair? LOL

He said major airline.

[s211]

Originally Posted by People_talking

In the airline industry it is notoriously difficult for airlines to make profits and when they do the margins are razor thin. every airline on the planet will take a loss for 2020 and probably for 2021 too

2023? Yikes.

I hope this link works:

https://www.moodys.com/researchdocumentcontentpage.aspx?docid=PBC_1232682

[PPAR]

The obsession with the semantics of being a “hub” is so depressing. If a Canadian airline wanted to operate on a hub and spoke design (very difficult given our linear geography) Toronto would be the hub, period. The rest is largely marketing.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by PPAR

The obsession with the semantics of being a “hub” is so depressing. If a Canadian airline wanted to operate on a hub and spoke design (very difficult given our linear geography) Toronto would be the hub, period. The rest is largely marketing.

That’s what I’ve always been saying about Flair. Using the term hub makes no sense. Main operating base sure but never have they operated a hub anywhere. Definitely a marketing tactic to please a certain portion of their market.

Westjet is clearly building a hub at YYC and probably meets the definition of one already.

[hollywoodcory]

If my memory serves me right, back in the early 2010s Air Canada was expanding YYC faster than YUL. This is when NRT started and they even operated twice daily to LHR. There were plans for CDG & PEK as well until the economy started tanking, so they shifted focus elsewhere.

Now with WS aggressively expanding internationally, there really isn't much room left for them to grow here. I expect AC will keep LHR/FRA, but I'm unsure about NRT.

Prior to COVID it looked like AC was going to put up a fight here with them adding BOS and additional capacity on LHR. All on hold now.

For now, the only confusing factor with AC is they aren't even willing to maintain a decent domestic network. Anyone traveling within the Prairies (AB/SK/MB) will be forced to make out of the way connections in Vancouver or Toronto. Back in May, this even applied to anyone trying to travel between Calgary & Edmonton too.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

If my memory serves me right, back in the early 2010s Air Canada was expanding YYC faster than YUL. This is when NRT started

No. Around 2009, 2010, AC launched YUL-FCO, GVA, ATH, BCN, BRU, etc...

Much of the same happened at YYZ and later on at YVR. Soon after Rouge came around and all hell broke loose, especially at YYZ/YUL. Like I said. YYC was left behind, and AC's market share in Alberta has suffered since then, as WS grew its network.


https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=22103&item=44832

https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.ph...ov,continuing%20on%20to%2Ffrom%20Toronto.

https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=22103&item=138027

[PPAR]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

That’s what I’ve always been saying about Flair. Using the term hub makes no sense. Main operating base sure but never have they operated a hub anywhere. Definitely a marketing tactic to please a certain portion of their market.

Westjet is clearly building a hub at YYC and probably meets the definition of one already.

As far as regional services go, Calgary is most definitely a "hub" for the rest of Alberta and Saskatchewan. I am now reminded of the big fight between Edmonton and Calgary in the 1980s. For the younger readers, in that period air services in Calgary took a lead on Edmonton for the first time. Mainly this was because corporate head offices had centralized in Calgary through the 1970s, this was a real sore point for Edmonton. Edmonton also had two commercial airports at that time. The International south of the city (which had been built too far out), and the Municipal airport right by downtown. Now, given this set of conditions, the airlines saw a real opportunity to offer a high frequency air shuttle from the Municipal airport to YYC, and then expand YYC services for the entire Alberta market. The knock on effect of all this was that Edmonton International threatened to become a non-viable airport, and the business community in Edmonton felt reduced air connectivity threatened their ability to attract head offices. Thus, the city decided to shut down the Municipal altogether.
So now, if you live in Calgary and have a one day meeting in Edmonton or vice versa, Flying does not make much sense over driving as no time is saved. It used to be much different, and you can blame northern hubris for the loss.

[MalcolmTucker]

I lived in Edmonton when they were shutting down the airport, and they powered up an old museum PWA 737, I presume without hush kits to move it to another airport. It was incredibly loud! I would certainly oppose a central airport with 60s-70s era jets! If they had retained the airport, with noise restrictions, almost all of the current services could operate out of central Edmonton, and the leakage of air traffic by car to Calgary would have been less.

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

Upon further look, I see American actually has 2 daily flights to DFW planned in July on a mainline 738 along with the E75 to ORD. Quite astonishing that they continue to be the largest foreign carrier despite not having a partner in the market, while DL and UA only maintain a single daily to one of their destinations.

The difference between AA & DL/UA isn't just here; Cranky published a post today showing how much more aggressive American is in July for domestic routes compared to United and Delta: https://crankyflier.com/2020/06/08/uniteds-big-fleet-and-network-disadvantage/

(Obviously YYC is not "domestic", but much closer to domestic than international in terms of aircraft types & crews assigned.)

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

If my memory serves me right, back in the early 2010s Air Canada was expanding YYC faster than YUL. This is when NRT started and they even operated twice daily to LHR. There were plans for CDG & PEK as well until the economy started tanking, so they shifted focus elsewhere.

Now with WS aggressively expanding internationally, there really isn't much room left for them to grow here. I expect AC will keep LHR/FRA, but I'm unsure about NRT.

Prior to COVID it looked like AC was going to put up a fight here with them adding BOS and additional capacity on LHR. All on hold now.

For now, the only confusing factor with AC is they aren't even willing to maintain a decent domestic network. Anyone traveling within the Prairies (AB/SK/MB) will be forced to make out of the way connections in Vancouver or Toronto. Back in May, this even applied to anyone trying to travel between Calgary & Edmonton too.

Just keep in mind everything is as far from normal as it could be. AC "aren't willing to maintain a decent domestic network..." there really isn't a domestic market to maintain at the moment. They just cannot be flying from everywhere to everywhere right now so they've cut. I wouldn't read into their current state of play too much when it comes to their long term strategy... still a long way to go before even a slight sense of normalcy returns. Who knows what will happen.
Hainan running two daily flights from YVR to PVG is another example of far from normal.