The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is BLM Vancouver's statement on the subject:

The City of Vancouver must commit to improving social conditions across the city with a commitment to the goal of eventually abolishing police and prisons, as they serve the primary purpose of oppressing marginalized communities and protecting the riches of the wealthy minority of denizens.

I guess "eventually" makes this so vague that it has no meaning. If one day humans live in a utopia they will not need police or prisons.

Hilarious.

Right now BLM has a lot of public sympathy and public support, but if this is really what they want, then their radical anarchosocialist agenda is showing, and they will lose public support so rapidly it'll be breathtaking.

Can you imagine a city without a police force? Nature abhors a vacuum, and organized gangs would fill the gap rapidly, charging the poor protection money to keep their neighbourhoods safe, while the white suburban enclaves will go the slightly more civilized route of "private security firms" for their own protection. Without prisons, what would you do with violent offenders? I am no fan of institutionalization for harmless offenders, but let's get real here.

Who are these people???

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Can we stop taking BLM’s stance on every issue as gospel? There’s a spectrum of dissatisfaction with protesters. Not recognizing that is starting to verge on being a strawman.

You have to admit it does get a bit hard to follow sometimes.

Even internationally all of this is taking place pretty much under the single banner of BLM: even in countries with virtually no black population!

Unfortunately there has not been a rainbow coalition of groups that might have led to a more reflective, coherent message.

Also, a substantial part of all of this has been to urge people to LISTEN.

But, listen to what?

Now we are being told that we shouldn't pay attention to certain things BLM itself is saying? I can understand that random protestors don't necessarily deserve credibility as spokespeople, but when it's the BLM organization's stated position in the third-largest city in our country...

[urbandreamer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Hilarious.

Right now BLM has a lot of public sympathy and public support, but if this is really what they want, then their radical anarchosocialist agenda is showing, and they will lose public support so rapidly it'll be breathtaking.

Can you imagine a city without a police force? Nature abhors a vacuum, and organized gangs would fill the gap rapidly, charging the poor protection money to keep their neighbourhoods safe, while the white suburban enclaves will go the slightly more civilized route of "private security firms" for their own protection. Without prisons, what would you do with violent offenders? I am no fan of institutionalization for harmless offenders, but let's get real here.

Who are these people???

They're children. aka graduate students with too much money and time on their hands. BLM shows what happens when you give stupid people access to education.

I was in Elora Saturday and decided to stop in Guelph without realizing BLM was holding their parade. I stopped by to watch for a few minutes from the safety of a parking lot -- not gonna get covid19 from these warriors. It made me understand how easily the Nazis came to power: control the message, keep it simple and repeat it, make it cool with younger people, call in the MSM to cover the event, then bully the establishment into accepting your demands. I didn't see anything original or thought provoking here. The rally came across as a bunch of kids trying to show their teachers that they're part of the movement so they can get social points. Btw, 95% white ppl here.

[once]

I think listen to the sentiment that a statement such as “defund the police” comes from. To the average white suburbanite I agree that slogan will involve much pearl clutching - but to a black minority it might be a comforting thought after living in fear of police for their entire life.

Yes, sometimes black lives matter use extremist language but why is it that black communities are the source of these “extremist” sentiments? It speaks to a difference in lived experience and this rhetoric is a counterpoint to the long held other extreme - which is that we need police on every corner to protect our mostly white neighborhoods from minority thugs.

Which one of the two extremist positions has more headspace in the average Canadian mindset? Part of it is about changing the conversation. And yes, listening and understanding is important.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by once

I think listen to the sentiment that a statement such as “defund the police” comes from. To the average white suburbanite I agree that slogan will involve much pearl clutching - but to a black minority it might be a comforting thought after living in fear of police for their entire life.

Yes, sometimes black lives matter use extremist language but why is it that black communities are the source of these “extremist” sentiments? It speaks to a difference in lived experience and this rhetoric is a counterpoint to the long held other extreme - which is that we need police on every corner to protect our mostly white neighborhoods from minority thugs.

Which one of the two extremist positions has more headspace in the average Canadian mindset? Part of it is about changing the conversation. And yes, listening and understanding is important.

I am not sure about the effectiveness of shock value (at least not at the level of claiming we shouldn't have police forces) to win over people who might be well-intentioned but don't feel personally concerned much.

These are the people you need in order to "win".

I've pointed to the gains of the gay community before as an example of how you can pretty darn effectively win over the non-concerned by convincing them that your gains are no threat to them.

If I am a non-black American (and even if I am an African-American inner city dweller - perhaps even moreso), a lot of things that BLM are flirting with sound pretty dangerous to me.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

How do you know though? Extremely corrupt organizations like Minneapolis PD obviously need to be blown up.

Other examples exist around the world.

VPD can take a 1% haircut easily, and perhaps money can be diverted to other areas the police are currently responsible for.

Worth asking why police forces are armed to the teeth and we had a PPE shortage for hospital workers.

I am fairly sure of it because it's really implausible. It's unlikely many people would go out and protest because a component of the municipal budget is ~1% higher than they would like.

I will come back on here and admit I'm wrong if Vancouver's mayor comes out an announces a 1% police budget cut and then the protests promptly melt away.

[urbandreamer]

I have no problem with cutting police funding ... say by 40%. Do cops need Ford Expeditions and Explorers when in England they get by with Fiestas and Focuses? Body cams are probably a waste of money. If the gangstas wanna shoot each other let them. The court system the cops support is a waste of money.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Hilarious.

Right now BLM has a lot of public sympathy and public support, but if this is really what they want, then their radical anarchosocialist agenda is showing, and they will lose public support so rapidly it'll be breathtaking.

Can you imagine a city without a police force? Nature abhors a vacuum, and organized gangs would fill the gap rapidly, charging the poor protection money to keep their neighbourhoods safe, while the white suburban enclaves will go the slightly more civilized route of "private security firms" for their own protection. Without prisons, what would you do with violent offenders? I am no fan of institutionalization for harmless offenders, but let's get real here.

Who are these people???

I have suggested that the agenda is being set by progressives who are mostly associated with universities and on the whole don't suffer a lot of personal hardship. Meanwhile actual poor people in neighbourhoods with a lot of street crime and violence (more prevalent in the US, but there are some in Canada too) don't seem to have much of a voice unless they complain about issues that resonate more widely.

Part of what's going on is most of Canada has low murder rates in general, including police-involved deaths (which make up a small portion of the total).

[once]

I am also skeptical about extremist language in order to win over converts but when it comes to “defund the police” maybe “winning”” is not the right goal. Maybe it’s recognizing the lived experience of minorities is dramatically different and “let’s expand our police forces to protect ourselves from minority thugs” is the standard bearer counterpart which frequently historically gets a pass. Let’s also not forget that there is absolutely nothing racist or targeted about a message “defund the police” and no one is being personally attacked - unlike the minority criminal scapegoating which has been used without challenge historically and people are comfortable with recognizing.

You can agree or disagree with the messages and the rhetoric - but at a personal level you have a choice of whether you engage sincerely with the place this rhetoric comes from or if you lecture about how to be politically correct and dismissing the sentiment from, let’s be honest, a place of privilege.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by someone123

I am fairly sure of it because it's really implausible. It's unlikely many people would go out and protest because a component of the municipal budget is ~1% higher than they would like.

I will come back on here and admit I'm wrong if Vancouver's mayor comes out an announces a 1% police budget cut and then the protests promptly melt away.

I didn't mean to imply 1% would change anything with respect to the protests. Not sure where that came from.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I didn't mean to imply 1% would change anything with respect to the protests. Not sure where that came from.

It came from me saying that a person holding up an "ACAB Abolish Police" sign probably isn't only thinking of minor police budget cuts and you asking me how I know that. Maybe there is some wire crossed and I misunderstand...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I have suggested that the agenda is being set by progressives who are mostly associated with universities and on the whole don't suffer a lot of personal hardship. Meanwhile actual poor people in neighbourhoods with a lot of street crime and violence (more prevalent in the US, but there are some in Canada too) don't seem to have much of a voice.

Well, I'd say most of them are probably in the BLM tent right now. It's tempting to say that there is a "bread and circuses" aspect to this and that they're being manipulated. But I am not sure I'd fully agree with that. BLM does focus on an issue that is pretty serious to minority communities - i.e. that many in the majority population and institutions don't seem to place equal value on the lives of black people. I don't think one can deny that this exists.

The uncomfortable flipside to this, though, and one that BLM as currently driven cannot resolve, is that black lives don't seem to matter to a lot of blacks either.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by once

Let’s also not forget that there is absolutely nothing racist or targeted about a message “defund the police” and no one is being personally attacked -.

The idea that "defund the police" is racist never even crossed my mind.

Ill-conceived and pie-in-the-sky... yup.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, I'd say most of them are probably in the BLM tent right now. It's tempting to say that there is a "bread and circuses" aspect to this and that they're being manipulated. But I am not sure I'd fully agree with that. BLM does focus on an issue that is pretty serious to minority communities - i.e. that many in the majority population and institutions don't seem to place equal value on the lives of black people. I don't think one can deny that this exists.

What I am getting at is more along the lines of the content of an interview of Heather Mac Donald where she talks about what she heard from people living in areas like Harlem or the Bronx. Less "systems of oppression" and more "I got mugged" or "can't somebody do something about the teenagers who hang around outside my shop every day and get into fist fights?". These are the routine situations that police get involved in.

If you are 22 and you live on the Yale campus you might not be so familiar with the practical day-to-day police stuff. And for the most part you will be comfortable in life regardless of what political causes you agitate for.

BLM Vancouver's demands have the similar feel of detachment from the day-to-day realities of an area like the DTES.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by once

I am also skeptical about extremist language in order to win over converts but when it comes to “defund the police” maybe “winning”” is not the right goal. Maybe it’s recognizing the lived experience of minorities is dramatically different and “let’s expand our police forces to protect ourselves from minority thugs” is the standard bearer counterpart which frequently historically gets a pass. Let’s also not forget that there is absolutely nothing racist or targeted about a message “defund the police” and no one is being personally attacked - unlike the minority criminal scapegoating which has been used without challenge historically and people are comfortable with recognizing.

You can agree or disagree with the messages and the rhetoric - but at a personal level you have a choice of whether you engage sincerely with the place this rhetoric comes from or if you lecture about how to be politically correct and dismissing the sentiment from, let’s be honest, a place of privilege.

Assuming that I was representing the side of "power", it's difficult to dialogue with people when they come up with absurd demands like "there shouldn't be no cops anymore". Not saying that that's BLM's line everywhere, but it's there in the subtext for sure. Somehow I doubt BLM Vancouver are at the avant-garde of BLM and everyone is following their lead.

All in all, I think it might turn out to be a bit unfortunate that BLM has ended being effectively the one and only organization spearheading all of this.

Luckily for them though, for some reason they've been getting a break from media and other people looking more closely at some not-too-nice aspects of their history as an organization.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

What I am getting at is more along the lines of the content of an interview of Heather Mac Donald where she talks about what she heard from people living in areas like Harlem or the Bronx. Less "systems of oppression" and more "I got mugged" or "can't somebody do something about the teenagers who hang around outside my shop every day and get into fist fights?". These are the routine situations that police get involved in.

If you are 22 and you live on the Yale campus you might not be so familiar with the practical day-to-day police stuff. And for the most part you will be comfortable in life regardless of what political causes you agitate for.

BLM Vancouver's demands have the similar feel of detachment from the day-to-day realities of an area like the DTES.

I get what you're saying and don't disagree, but for better or worse I still think that BLM right now resonates with most people in Harlem and the Bronx, and even on the DTES.

As for Heather Mac Donald I actually read a bit of her stuff recently. I did some searching afterwards and found that to a lot of the self-described "good" people her name is mud and she is considered to be a racist.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I have no problem with cutting police funding ... say by 40%. Do cops need Ford Expeditions and Explorers when in England they get by with Fiestas and Focuses? Body cams are probably a waste of money. If the gangstas wanna shoot each other let them. The court system the cops support is a waste of money.

How so?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As for Heather Mac Donald I actually read a bit of her stuff recently. I did some searching afterwards and found that to a lot of the self-described "good" people her name is mud and she is considered to be a racist.

There isn't a lot of diversity of opinion right now. She's an exception in that she's outspoken on the topic and has an unusual, well-articulated perspective. She condemned e.g. the George Floyd killing and is not a Trump apologist. Yet she also does not support BLM.

No surprise to me that she's considered a racist. There's a lot of "with us or against us" sentiment, particularly in the US. We risk importing that polarization. That dynamic is how you get extreme outcomes like police abolition because people feel like they are sticking their necks out even if they are largely on board yet want to be more cautious about reforms.

When we leave the realm of calmer civic debate and enter the realm of loud activism is the people in the middle tend to disengage while the extremists stick around. So you are left with groups like the Proud Boys or anarchists. The true racists don't care if they're called racist so they stay in the debate.

[urbandreamer]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

How so?

Toronto Police will find a way for something like this https://www.amazon.com/BOBLOV-Cameras-En...Police+Body+Camera&qid=1591642792&sr=8-9 to cost more than $10,000,000 for 5000+ people.

[Acajack]

Toronto police chief stepping down.